You Don't Get To Determine What is and isn't Transformers

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Galvatross, Jun 22, 2018.

  1. Galvatron II

    Galvatron II I can type whatever here?

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    This opinion is fantastically wrong.

    Like the best villain in the franchise is Sentinel Prime. He has goals and motivations we can empathize with even if we disagree, he has rich inner conflict but ultimately his worst impulses win out because that's what makes interesting, human villains. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" is a great recontextualization because it shows that he's literally not even factoring in the humans as people in their own right. He has a general disdain and sense of superiority towards everyone who's not an Autobot and that's clearly and well drawn. He's also a fire truck with a cool gun

    Lockdown's generally misanthropic. That's his whole throughline. But it's unclear if that's because he as a mercenary outlook where cause = bad ("they'll always betray you" or some such) or if he himself has a righteous cause so he just thinks he's better than everyone else (everything he has to allow about the Creators and cleaning up messes etc.). We really don't know what the Creators are offering him if it's the former and if it's the latter then he's a gigantic hypocrite in a way that's never explored. If he's a bounty hunter, what is his payday? If he's a fanatic, then we have no idea why he's doing what he's doing. His goals and motivations are punted off as the will of mysterious Creators, of whom we know nothing. That's not a great villain.

    Also, "You weren't born, you were built." is a stupid line. He's a giant robot, of course he was built. Presumably by other giant robots or by the planet Cybertron itself or whatever in this continuity. If it was the other way around, that might have been revelatory and weird. But he, everyone around him, and everyone in the audience should have already been assuming that he was built.

    Beast Wars is G1
     
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  2. Dinobot Snarl

    Dinobot Snarl Well-Known Member

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    Say it with me. BEAST WARS IS G1!
     
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  3. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Anthony Hopkins with a submachine gun. 'Nuff said!

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    Yeah, it's kind of hard to ignore this fact given the entire plot of Beast Wars is literally BW Megatron going back in time to kill G1 Optimus Prime on the orders of G1 Megatron to change the outcome of the G1 War.
     
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  4. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    I'm not feeling that a lot of things to enjoy right now. Bumblebee is a toss up because none of us really know what it will be like. Cartoons decided to skew really young. The web series is just horrible. I was just thinking the other day that the Classics/Generations style toys are getting to point where they are going to run out of characters that haven't been done well already. Not really sure I want to buy a load of graphic novels to catch up on where the comic books might be.

    For some fans yes it's been great times. But it's not the best of times for all fans. It's the problem with a wide fan base it gets harder and harder to get the various fans excited when the franchise has been so many different things over the years. For some people they just have to hold out hope that maybe one day the fiction will turn their way again.
     
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  5. Paok

    Paok Well-Known Member

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    To take it a step further... What isn't G1? After Beast Machines ended, is there anything of substance added to the concept of the franchise? I could argue that every subsequent iteration is a cheap, watered down regurgitation of select concepts from G1, twisted and distorted in order to be sold as something "new and different". And that is not a comment on the quality in execution of those iterarions, as I love Animated for example, as much as it is about concept. What did they offer to the Transformers mythos that wasn't already in some form or another in G1? Minicons? Dark Energon? Other magical pseudo-religious contrivances that cheapen the lore and require less and less creative explanations for things to happen in the fictional world that transformers occupy? Nameslaps? Unnecessary composite characters? Maybe a few new ones? The inability to showcase the war as anything that feels bigger than a basketball match of 5v5?

    In the hearts and minds of many, all these iterations, for all these reasons and many more feel like official knockoffs. Of course they are technically Transformers, as that's entirely dependend on Hasbro. But in many cases, they would probably be received better by many people if they weren't. Because Transformers is an established concept, with established characters and lore. Twisting those around arbitrarily, but still calling it the same, only cheapens what's already been built and earnt in regards to creativity and identity and attracts new fans for all the wrong reasons (meaning, attributes that don't represent the franchise throughout its history). And that's how you end up with a fandom divided into little bickering tribes, each with completely different expectations from the brand and completely different views and undestanding of its identity, with some even advocating for the insane notion that a brand's strength could ever lie in a lack of consistent identity.
     
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  6. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Anthony Hopkins with a submachine gun. 'Nuff said!

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    They really do need to branch out with Generations - even more G2 characters (or versions of characters, since G2 Powerglide not having been a thing didn't stop them from just INVENTING one for the G2 Superion Combiner Wars boxset), Beast Wars, or the outright unthinkable and acknowledging Car Robots 2001 characters. But with a strict G1 focus, they're rapidly running out of even the 1987/88 characters and unless they get REAL creative, they'll be stuck with 1984/5 rehashes again and just the whole slew of micromaster nobodies.

    To play devil's advocate, as well as defend my childhood slightly :lol  I would argue Mini-cons were kind of a new concept if only by being in essence a fusion of micromasters and Target/Head/Powermasters. The exact lore differs between the show and the comic, but the show revealed that the mini-cons were the tools through which Unicron engineered the Autobot-Decepticon conflict to provide him with sustenance from the 'essence' of war or something, cleverly hidden all along in the symbol of the Mini-cons actually directly referencing their Unicron origins. The comic, meanwhile, played up Mini-cons more as like Micromasters who co-existed on the planet alongside the bigger bots until the Decepticons figured out they could gain power ups from using them, with the Mini-cons afterward being more of a neutral race since you had them join both sides either willingly or by force - and then there was the whole moon colony story arc where Megatron has a really, really bad day courtesy of the Destruction Mini-con Team...and then Leader-1 (his own mini-con) thinking he can kill Megatron in revenge. Doesn't work, suffice to say.

    Exactly - innovation in the franchise is something that the franchise both needs and can utilize extremely well, but the catch is that you can't just innovate THE ENTIRE franchise all at once which is what the movies decided to do from AoE on. Some aspects have to remain recognizable for the differences to really be most effective - the IDW ongoings after the MTMTE/RID split tackled the 'what-if' scenario of G1 characters where the war ACTUALLY CAME TO AN END and both Megatron and Optimus Prime weren't around to lead their respective sides anymore. Animated played up both the idea that the Autobots had achieved total victory over the Decepticons in driving them off the planet without sending it into a death spiral (meaning unlike literally every other incarnation, Cybertron doesn't start off as a barren metal sphere wasteland), AND the idea of Optimus being as far removed from the command structure as possible instead of being at the top.

    But that's why simply having transforming robots using the same names isn't enough. You can't just openly reject the core fundamentals of the franchise in full without losing the essence of the franchise itself. Refering back to the way IDW ended the war, just because the war was over didn't mean the Autobots and Decepticons were suddenly all nice to each other. You still had conflict between the two sides, you still had them outright fighting each other, and each side in particular had members who ranged all over the place on the spectrum between wanting peace and wanting to start the war again. The critical thing is that Decepticons still played a major part.

    AoE and TLK showed that you can't abandon those traits no matter how hard you try, because making the conflict some bullshit about humans simply takes the focus AWAY from the robots entirely as well as what makes them more unique from any other kind of alien...and Lockdown is a PRIME example of why. The original Animated Lockdown only showed up once a season across all of Animated, with an additional mention as 'a mutual bounty hunter friend' in S2, but him toeing the line between factions is actually THE MOST CRITICAL PART OF THE WHOLE SHOW. By the time he departs in S3, having made his last appearance, it's revealed that he single handedly is responsible for the trauma behind Ratchet AND Prowl, whose backstories in turn constitute the true backbone of the entire show's plot. A former Autobot, he betrayed Yoketron by going mercenary for the Decepticons, fatally wounding him and stealing the secret protoforms - this being how the protoforms eventually (crash)land on the moon as well as how Sumdac ended up with a techno-organic daughter when one such pod inexplicably crashed into his lab at the same time. Later, he is sent by the Decepticons to capture the control codes for the Omega project and while he doesn't succeed, he does end up stealing Ratchet's EMP and leaves Ratchet tarumatized for having to make Arcee an amnesiac - which THAT in turn ends up making HIM the teacher for Omega Supreme and eventually have to put the mortally wounded OS into stasis as the Ark, with the old cranky coot sticking around to keep watch over the sleeping giant. And then Lockdown himself demonstrates he isn't fully evil when he and Prowl actually develop a kind of working relationship in S2 in hunting down the Starscream clones, then in S3 he happily accepts payment from Sentinel in return for capturing most of the Decepticons on Earth for Sentinel - including Blitzwing, who originally hired Lockdown back in S1 to capture Optimus Prime. Lockdown in Animated is a masterpiece in character portrayal because he's around so little, but his very existence and actions within the show are directly related to about 50% of the major character backstories AND end up converging to set up the Lugnut Supreme finale at the end of S3.

    Lockdown in AoE? Just some hired hand who is going around capturing Primes for his clients for unclear reasons. Him even being a Transformer really isn't anything special beyond obviously needing to make a toy of him, because the lore significance of him being Cybertronian within the film is completely unrelated to his role. He could have been Death's Head who, incidentally, is very much a core inspiration for Animated Lockdown to the point that's the name of Ani. Lockdown's ship. However, ignoring the fact Death's Head is probably owned by Disney because he was a Marvel creation (same reason we can't get Circuit Breaker), he would have been able to fill Lockdown's role just as well if not better. Lockdown being Cybertronian and whining about the war just comes off as him complaining about how Cybertron got screwed up, covering ground already explained in the past three films. But Death's Head not being Cybertronian, though a mechanical being himself, would make the same exact lines have different meaning because that expands the scope of the statement to include much more than just Cybertron being messed up in the universe due to the Autobot-Decepticon war, simply because he clearly is NOT of Cybertronian origin but something else entirely.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
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  7. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    Transformers is definitely on the peripheral for me more than it usually is, but I've also gone through worse stages of "nothing to like" than this.

    I still have the collection aspect, Studio Series, BWMPs, buying old figures. Media-wise yeah, it's barren. Even being excited for Bumblebee it's so far away and so little to go on (no toys, secondary characters, etc to mull over) but luckily it's giving me room to dedicate to my other hobbies. (namely Batman and Gundam)

    While it does kinda feel bad having to wait for when TFs interests you again, it's also comforting to now that it eventually will. That's just the nature of the brand. Even Cyberverse, despite not being my cup of tea, represents a shift back to traditional TF design elements I wasn't expecting to see for quite a while.
     
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  8. Prime17

    Prime17 Seeker

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    Yeah, I think it’s about time Generations branches out more to RID, Unicron Trilogy, and (if there is a loving planet-robot deity) Animated.
     
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  9. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Anthony Hopkins with a submachine gun. 'Nuff said!

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    Nah, unless we're talking characters who didn't get Animated style figures (read: a good number of the later-series Decepticons like the Constructicons), what we got from the line originally is great and the new characters Animated introduced have gotten excellent 'more realistic' adaptations as well - RtS Lugnut is everything you could possibly want from a Generations version (Except being mostly purple - but Takara had that covered) and gave him the POKE in his forearms, Generations 30th Blitzwing straight up adapted the Animated incarnation's changing faces flawlessly (in the idea of the gimmick, actual execution is lacking since the rubber helmet makes head changing sometimes difficult), and ROTF Lockdown was used as the basis for his G1 appearance in the IDW comics and looks FAR better than the black and silver genericon that is AoE Lockdown.
     
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  10. Prime17

    Prime17 Seeker

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    Yeah, I was mostly referring to unreleased toys like Hot Shot, Ironhide, Constructicons etc.
     
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  11. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    I think those are exactly the characters everyone thinks of when Generations Animated is mentioned.

    Though I'd really love a new TFA Voyager Starscream that, y'know, actually looks like Starscream. The original Voyager is so terrible at representing the character.

    Gotta disagree there. ROTF Lockdown is way too monstrous and janky. He represents those awkward attempts by Hasbro to match the movie aesthetic but often times missed the point. He doesn't represent the cunning, smooth businessman that Lockdown was the way the AOE design does.
     
  12. BigRed

    BigRed Well-Known Member

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    The TFA Voyager Starscream is terrible period. Went thru 3 units and still couldn't find one without parts popping off insanely and his transformation is never super fun.

    They should do a new one inspired by his Legends-size version but fancier and bigger.
     
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  13. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Anthony Hopkins with a submachine gun. 'Nuff said!

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    I think the Animated Voyager Starscream did a decent enough job, but I never actually got any version of that mold so I dunno.

    AoE Lockdown looks pathetically generic to me - he's got a silver face and mostly black body, maybe some armaments or whatever like the hook, but personally 'smooth businessman' just isn't what to go for if you want to use Lockdown. The original Animated Lockdown was very asymmetrical to convey his addiction to body modification and upgrades, his driving force for the most part. Could be taken to be a visual example of how his addiction had turned him into a more or less amoral monster who only cared about pay and not causes.

    Additionally, AoE Lockdown just looks BAD - you can't honestly look at that robot and tell me that thing looks like it actually turns into a Lamborghini. This is a problem I have with pretty much ALL designs from AoE and TLK, in that they cared more about making the robots look so human in profile to the point of deciding kibble was for the most part unnecessary on most of them. Sure, the ROTF Lockdown toy design isn't exactly the best but given it's an Animated design being translated into the movie aesthetic at deluxe scale? It has color, it has real character in the monsterous asymetry, and given how weird Transformations were already getting with the robot modes by ROTF what with the Arcee Bikes, Demolishor, and the Twins? It doesn't stick out nearly as bad because it at the very least had recognizable car parts integrated into the robot mode as opposed to Lockdown looking like an oversized T-800 with a little more meat on the proverbial bones instead of an actual transforming space robot whose body becomes a replica of a car.
     
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  14. Galvatross

    Galvatross Online Fandoms Suck! Veteran

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    No it isn't. It's a damn well-supported one. Do you have to agree? No, but it is one that I stand behind.


    Sentinel Prime is the best villain of the first trilogy, and he's not far behind Lockdown, but I give the edge to the bounty hunter.

    Besides, who is "we?" I hate any time a human being talks in "we" terms, because nobody speaks for everyone. You mean "I."

    Lockdown is definitely a villain with goals and motivations I (I can only speak for myself) can emphasize with. He sees the damage the war has caused, and he thinks the warring factions are at fault. Completely understandable. I can see real-world conflicts, and I can see that it takes two to tango. Now the Autobots and Decepticons and the war have damaged not just cities and countries, but whole worlds. Think about that.

    On top of that, Lockdown doesn't like how egotistical humans and other species are, and he's traveled to other galaxies and encountered species with similarly egotistical worldviews. And I find his motivations something to emphasize with because he's actually right. Many humans do act as if they're the center of the universe. Imagine if you or I traveled to different planets in different galaxies over millennia, and the beings you encounter are entirely concerned with their needs and wants, as if they don't realize there's a whole universe out there. To so many people it's, "Me, me, me, me, me." So many people don't care about the people around them, or about people from certain demographics, or about the other species we share this planet with. We're just a single species of primate that has lived for 300,000 out of the 4.6 billion years of our planet's history. We're not the center of our planet's history, let alone the center of the universe. If I were Lockdown, and I encountered 21st Century humans after spending my extremely long lifespan roaming between galaxies, I would be misanthropic, too. That's something I can relate to, even if he's the antagonist.

    The reason he wasn't too fond of humans specifically was because he saw humans and other species he encountered as egotistical and small-minded, and he didn't like how his own Cemetery Wind allies got in the way of things at times.

    What I found refreshing about Lockdown is that even though he is misanthropic, and he's not too concerned with human casualties, he isn't trying to destroy or enslave humanity a la Megatron, Fallen, and Sentinel. He hunts the Earth-bound Transformers along with Cemetery Wind, he captures Prime, and once the humans have their own means to fight any remaining Transformers with their robot prototypes and the Seed to make more Transformium he thinks his job is done there. It's only once he finds out Prime escapes that he returns to Earth, otherwise he probably never would want to visit us again.

    His motivations were BOTH. He was both getting paid by the Creators, so it was a job to him, and he enjoys his job, but he also genuinely saw the Autobot-Decepticon war as being a blight on the universe. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

    First off, it's "You think you were born? You were built, and your creators want you back." No, it's not a stupid line, because earlier on in the films Optimus did not know his origins beyond the Allspark, and he didn't know where that came from. Then in RotF it makes it sound as if the Primes are a dynasty, as if they are "born." Lockdown is simply telling Prime he doesn't know the full story of his own history. There are much, much dumber lines in both all of the Bay movies and across the brand than that.

    Would I have liked to see a better follow-up with the Creators in Transformers 5? Absolutely, but I was fine with Lockdown's execution.

    If someone thinks that Sentinel Prime is the best villain, and he's definitely my second choice, I'm not going to tell them they're wrong if it's an opinion they support with evidence. By the same token, my opinion isn't wrong either, because it's also an opinion supported with evidence. You can prefer Lockdown. You can prefer Sentinel. Heck, one time I saw someone who thought Laserbeak was the best antagonist for reasons, and that's something I respect.

    Also, I think @Russian fan was not trying to say Beast Wars was not in the same continuity as G1. She was trying to say that the Bay movies are more like G1 than Beast Wars, which was undoubtedly the biggest reinvention in the brand's history. And she's right. The timeline of the Bay movies actually parallels that of G1 in many ways.

    I myself would love a Beast Wars-level reinvented version of the brand at some point in the future, but for better or worse I don't see it coming any time soon, if it ever comes.
     
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  15. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Anthony Hopkins with a submachine gun. 'Nuff said!

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    Then he's a FUCKING HYPOCRITE! Or are you going to tell me that what Lockdown was going to do in service of Cemetery Wind WASN'T going to ensure Earth got fucked over again?

    So, once again, you point out how your like the films because of how it relies on HUMANS. Full stop. Of course humans think they're on top, because for the most part WE ARE. We don't have any natural predators, we're the only actual civilization that's developed with language, technology, and the ability to temporarily leave the planet - don't see the whales doing that any time soon. To expect Lockdown to be RIGHT about how a civilization being centered on itself because excluding the limited contact with Transformers, THERE HAS BEEN NO CONTACT WITH EXTRATERRESTIAL SPECIES otherwise, is like the humans thinking they're better than common monkeys who still throw their excrement at each other. Oh, and remind me who the fuck has been kicking Transformer ass until the movies remember who the heroes are supposed to be? That's right, HUMANS.

    If you were Lockdown, spending time traveling galaxies, you wouldn't be misanthropic because compared to most other species, humanity is STILL PRETTY FUCKING PRIMITIVE. We barely even have space travel - who's the egotistical one when the one making the criticizing about how humans think they're so great...is from a civilization that actually IS better and more advanced than the humans? Just because you've made your pessimism clear about what you think about humanity doesn't mean the rest of the world actually thinks humanity should always be depicted as nothing but a bunch of asshole scumbags. People come to the films to have fun, not get fucking commentary on the human social condition. Transformers should not be a vehicle for that kind of philisophical content, to pretend otherwise is to imply the Transformers are not actually the main focus of their own films - go figure that they actually aren't.

    And Lockdown is in the WRONG profession if you actually think he believes that bullshit. He's a bounty hunter, it's his JOB to work for people for pay and while in theory he would be free to choose who he works for...he's not doing anybody any favors by helping CW destroy the Autobots who were trying to STOP the war and undo what the Decepticons did. You have Lockdown preaching about what is effectively neutrality when that is at complete odds with the very thing he's doing.
    Well that's what happens with species that don't encounter any other kind of sapient life on the same level for the majority of its existence. Ever notice how that kind of additude isn't present when the protags in any sci-fi film are working hand-in-hand with non-human species, like Star Trek? Talk about not even giving humanity the benefit of the doubt given the circumstances.

    Because giving humanity a plot device that will unleash some kind of metal plague upon the Earth totally isn't knowingly going to fuck humanity over.

    Unless the Creators decide to send him back to Earth to go fuck over the KSI robots. That's the problem with Lockdown - he's just a goon serving a vaguely defined greater power. What he does and doesn't do is decided by something OTHER than himself. He never goes against these orders or demonstrates a different side to his persona. He isn't 'kill all humans' like the previous bad guys but he's far less developed in general.
    So here's a question for you - what do you think Lockdown was actually DOING during the war? I mean, previous Lockdowns were mercenaries for hire and did jobs for BOTH sides.

    That would imply we're in the phase where the films are going to crash and burn horribly before a complete departure from the current incarnation all together.
     
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  16. Galvatross

    Galvatross Online Fandoms Suck! Veteran

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    It seems like you are legitimately, unnecessarily angry in most all of your posts. You're entitled to your opinion, but we're talking movies based on an over-the-top toy brand.

    The thing about Lockdown is that he's big picture as opposed to small picture. He's not concerned if humans screw themselves over.

    Excuse me? Humans are naturally prey to big cats, crocodiles, and some others. Yeah, humans have depleted plenty of predator populations, greatly outnumber similar-sized predators, and have taken many safety precautions by living in cities and what not, but naturally there are many examples of mammalian, reptilian, and aquatic carnivores that will hunt and eat humans.


    And that makes humans better than whales how exactly? That makes us the center of the universe?

    The fact is, humans have only been on this Earth as a species for 300,000 years. Upright-walking hominins have only been around for several million years.

    And we may be the only species with electronics and similar technology, but there are other species, like various primates, parrots, corvids, and dolphins, who can use and even make tools, to the point that there are instances in which capuchin tools in Brazil and chimpanzee tools in the rainforests of Africa have at times thought to be from ancient human cultures. Humans ourselves had a similar level of tool use in the not-too-distant geologic past.

    Besides, humans and our civilizations would not exist without the ecological services provided by microbes, fungi, plants, phytoplankton, zooplankton, insects and other arthropods, and other animal groups. We can not exist without them. It's silly for humans to act as if we're "better" or the center of everything when we depend on so many other creatures to have any sort of existence at all and when there are other groups of animals that have so far proved much more successful long-term than humans - insects, ammonoids, dinosaurs, brachiopods, etc. All of these past and current dynasties of creatures developed innovations that have changed the world to make it livable for creatures like us, even if some are too close-minded to accept it.

    Please stop with your misconstrued claims that the movies are just humans besting the Transformers at every turn.

    Yeah, it's true that there are instances of the humans killing Transformers with both their own weapons (Blackout, Devastator, etc.) and alien technology (Megatron, Starscream, Cade's alien gun), but one has to remember that all of the human military is helpless against the Fallen; only Prime is able to punch through and engage the evil Prime. Likewise, the humans were completely helpless in Chicago until the Autobots sneaked into the city. Only then did the tide turn. And Lockdown was the key to Cemetery Wind's success.

    Where in the world do you even get this idea? We have no idea how technologically advanced the species Lockdown encounters are besides the Creators, other Transformers, and humans. Besides, his dislike of other species had nothing to do with their technological abilities and everything to do with their egos.

    Except humanity is not depicted as nothing but scumbags, because one of the lessons of the film is to look at all the junk and see the treasure. Prime and the Autobots have been betrayed, so they're understandably angry and no longer trust humans. It's the friendship with Cade where Prime sees that even with the betrayals by Cemetery Wind and KSI that there are still individuals in the human species worth protecting. Yes, there are plenty of bad people in the world, but there are also real gems.

    Except humans are going to be involved when Transformers are on Earth, so there needs to be some comparison between these two species of sentient, sapient life forms. Besides, because Transformers is about wars and the fallout of those wars, the Transformers are naturally going to encounter the less pleasant attributes of humanity along with the nicer ones.

    Yeah, like all people who have the same job description need to have the same opinion about everything. :rolleyes: 

    That's not how Lockdown perceived it. He saw both sides as being willing participants.

    Yeah, because he's hunting both factions. It's not taking sides if you're hunting both sides. He's an enemy to Autobots and Decepticons alike.

    But he's not trying to screw over humans. He just doesn't care. If the humans screw themselves over, that's on them.

    Hahahahaha. You have no idea what you're talking about here. Most of the previous Decepticons were snarling monsters, and most of the Decepticons that did speak had much less to their characters and personalities than Lockdown. Lockdown has more to him than any of the Decepticons in 2007 and RotF, and he has more nuances to him than Sentinel.

    Irrelevant. That's not the story the fourth film was trying to tell.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
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  17. WishfulThinking

    WishfulThinking "Don't touch it! It's evil!"

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    Are you guys writing a novel or something?
     
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  18. Meta777

    Meta777 Dr Pepper Fan

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    Beast Wars was badass. Now that, I do get to determine :D 
     
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  19. Galvatross

    Galvatross Online Fandoms Suck! Veteran

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    This is the Writer's Room for the Shrekformers Cinematic Onionverse. :D 
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
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  20. Galvatron II

    Galvatron II I can type whatever here?

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    I'd actually put Megatron in the first trilogy above Lockdown too. He's all about domination in the macro and micro senses and him bullying Starscream and chiefing under the pressures of collaboration with Sentinel both speak to a psychology and an identity of his own a lot better than all the world destroying/dominating plots he's involved in. Is he the most untouchable badass version of the character ever? No but that's not what makes for strong characterization either.

    The Fallen and Quintessa just suck

    Alright but what you're describing is an affectation that fits into a worldview that maybe you or I can understand. When I'm talking goals I mean what is the character after and when I'm talking motivations I mean why?

    Now, his direct, obvious goal is collecting Prime and his motivation is because it's his job. But on a deeper level, what is his endgame in working for the Creators and why is he doing it? If he's so misanthropic why does he feel like it's his duty to clean up after his species? Animated Lockdown was jaded and cynical but we knew he was involved because he was after upgrades and money. There are pieces to movie Lockdown but we don't have enough to put the equation together; not necessarily who he's working for and the mysteries around them, but just who this guy is and why he's involved in this story at this time.

    He's a lot like Thanos, who everybody creamed themselves over. Thanos has a worldview, for sure, and a clearly defined goal, but why he's so driven is unclear. Okay, overpopulation, but why are you concerned about this that you're willing to sacrifice your "daughter" who we're told you love even though we're never shown why? Why are you doing it all now instead of any time before now? We need more to go on.

    Sentinel on the other hand is totally realized. He wants to bring back Cybertron at any cost because he does not want to live in this brave new world without it. All the Transformers (especially Optimus, who he is designed to mirror) feel this same sense of mourning for the faded glory of their home world and this is how he's reacting to it. To him, even a Decepticon Cybertron based on subjugation is better than no Cybertron. He's prideful and compromised pans that puts him into direct opposition with Optimus' goals and motivations.

    Did is just favorably compare Dark of the Moon to a Marvel movie? To Infinity War? On the Internet? Oh no

    I liked that too. In fact I would have preferred if the KSI Bots just stayed under wraps and we dropped the whole Seed and Dinobot plots for no end of the world shenanigans. Basically a whole different third act. Movie two could have been the Autobots on Earth dealing with Galvatron and the Dino's and then Optimus crashes back to Earth at the end, maybe as Nemesis Prime now, and in movie three we deal with the Creators now fully revealed.

    But smaller scale goals and intimate stakes are way better, no question.

    But like... It's goofy. There's no way he was born. Maybe he was weirdly budded out of the planets surface by the AllSpark or whatever. But not born.

    Also dumb; "You see my face your life is done!" Everybody's seen your face dude. You almost never wear that visor Man of Steel Zod mask thingy
     
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