You Don't Get To Determine What is and isn't Transformers

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Galvatross, Jun 22, 2018.

  1. electronic456

    electronic456 Dog of Raw

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    Explaining how it was a joke does not mean I like it.

    So um if you don't mind..... This was as of recent.

    I'd given the movie a 7.5/10 that I know.

    So yeah... Some points I disagree with but I do agree the world of Wakanda was a little on the nose with the Vibranium.

    -Shuri to me was cool because I liked how good the brother-sister dynamic was. Typical we see a lot of brother-brother or sister-sister dynamics, so this was nice.

    -Also Kilmonger being 'wasted' I liked. Because unlike a lot of villains who go out to make the hero stand out, Kilmonger sacrifices himself to make his point across and by dying in front of the of the many things he wanted to see: A sunset that is considered the most beautiful in the world.

    "Just bury me in the ocean with my ancestors who jumped from ships, cause they knew death was better than bondage." To me, that's him saying he knows the world has not changed from what he strived to do and he takes his own life anyway.

    And in return, T'Challa forms a new legacy from his cousin's death to be more open with the world.
     
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  2. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Anthony Hopkins with a submachine gun. 'Nuff said!

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    The closest to there being an inappropriate joke is when M'Baku threatens the American guy to shut up 'or else [I'll] feed you to my children', given it's outright murder and canibalism, then he laughs heartily and explains that he and his whole tribe are actually vegetarians.

    Don't read Ready Player One then, if you thought the movie was bad then the book will kill you with lethal amounts of cringe.

    That still doesn't change the fact you were arguing about how mere spoken humor in the marvel films is somehow problematic to kids, yet actually showing mechanical approximations of genitalia on robots is just an example of the kind of inappropriate sexual humor in a toy-shilling movie franchise didn't immediately set off alarms in your head despite, y'know, being absolutely unsubtle in what parts of human anatomy are being mimicked. And it's purely for the sexual humor because genitals on robots wouldn't serve any actual reproductive function with Cybertronians.

    And then when you were countered, you immediately tried to fall back by saying both Marvel and the TF films had crossed the line, but not necessarily changing your stance that Drax asking a sentient planet if he has a dick is something that should be censored because you didn't understand the joke.
     
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  3. electronic456

    electronic456 Dog of Raw

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    Because the one time I point out that I didn't like a joke automatically meant that I didn't like the movie? Am I right?

    I was 12 years old if I'm being honest when ROTF came out.... It took me a while to learn, "OK, that wasn't great."

    Also Celestials are pretty much actually humanoid to be begin with... So I don't know why that needs explaining.


    This was your response to my first post.

    When I said stuff about Marvel, I haven't said anything that Transformers toilet humour was funny. I just laughed at an ironic statement.

    Don't be so kneejerk. And Burnout, you don't need to antagonise me just because....

    A pretty dated joke to be honest and to be honest, he's not doing that much gaming anymore.
     
  4. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    Good lord, I got halfway through that quoted review before I realised it was my own. I was all like "damn this guy makes some good points I ain't never thought of." Fucking kill me. :lol 

    While not untrue, I also just really liked the character and Marvel is so terrible at keeping villains I just wanted anyone with a decent character to stick around. Same with how I hated that Ultron died, because he was such a pleasure to watch even if the movie stunk. Not every movie needs to kill the main villain.

    Good villains are such a commodity, seeing them confined to a single movie when even the blandest heroes return over and over bums me out.

    That was the best scene of the movie, IMO.

    I still don't see what this has to do with anything in this topic, though.
     
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  5. electronic456

    electronic456 Dog of Raw

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    Well we once had Loki but currently we now have Thanos.


    Forgive me on that part then... Pop culture is a pretty large pool of many things.
     
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  6. Galvatross

    Galvatross Swamp Lord Shrek-traoridinairre! Veteran

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    The thing is neither one of us, nor anyone else here, is in a position to change what is Transformers and what isn't. If Transformers fiction is official fiction that has examples of transforming alien robots from Cybertron that think and feel like human beings do, then it is factually, undeniably Transformers. Pretending otherwise is silly. Fans can not like it. Fans can not support it financially. That is fine, but when people say the Bay films or other pieces of Transformers fiction are not Transformers because they don't like it, they are factually, undoubtedly incorrect. Especially given ALL of the films have plenty of core concepts from the brand's earliest years.

    "There isn't any defined bad guy threat." Yeah except, Lockdown, Galvatron, and Cemetery Wind are specific threats in that movie, and they all have more to them than, well, the vast majority of the first trilogy antagonists.

    There is no decline in quality between DotM and AoE. There is no big difference in quality between the first three films and the last two. Okay, so The Last Knight has continuity issues more than the other films, but as an individual film the difference in quality between it and, say, RotF, are minimum. Both have main villains that don't have much to them. The older film has a ton of geographic continuity errors, and TLK has some issues on continuity between it and its predecessors with no Galvatron, Starscream's head intact, no exploration of Creators, etc. Both have way too many characters robot and human. Difference in quality of dialogue, humor, characterization, etc....yeah, nonexistent. In terms of quality as films, they are both on the same level more or less. It's just that TLK is less safe and comfortable in terms of its premise than RotF for both most existing Transformers fans and Bayverse fans, and I say that as someone who enjoys RotF more than TLK.

    There isn't this great gulf in quality between the newer films and older films. The latter are merely more within the comfort zones of most fans than the newer films, even if the difference in quality is minimal. Furthermore, the latter two get bashed for the "crime" of existing after DotM, when if anything I think AoE did as good a job realistically speaking with what it was left with (and a much better job than given credit by internet fans or critics).

    The problem is you can't have it both ways. Fans can't complain endlessly how awful it is that fan favorites like Ironhide and Ratchet get killed off by Sentinel and Lockdown, and then turn around and complain when no major Autobots get killed off in TLK. Choose one or the other and stick with it.
     
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  7. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Anthony Hopkins with a submachine gun. 'Nuff said!

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    And you just sound kind of like you give too much of a shit about other people's opinions if you're outright just saying they're factually incorrect. No one is denying that the films are part of the official franchise, but here you are acting like people who say literally the sentence 'the movies are not transformers' or variations thereof need to be 'corrected'.

    But they are free to state that they don't consider it actually transformers in spirit or whatever they feel, and you come off as kind of a prick in trying to play gatekeeper on other people expressing their opinions to the point of trying to funnel what they say simply so they don't sound 'factually incorrect' as you so put it. Nobody likes that Hardwired book from about a decade or more ago which used Marvel colorations and went into needlessly elaborate detail about human gore, which especially sounds like it's against what Transformers traditionally is, but nobody complains about it because it isn't relevant anymore. The films, sadly, are still relevant, so people will complain about them. Complaining about the people complaining is just wasting your breath.

    Except CW wasn't worth shit without Lockdown, Lockdown was a fucking moron who had he been any good at his job shouldn't have died (instead simply making a tactical retreat to get at Prime when he was all alone again like oh maybe when Prime flies by himself into space like an idiot and goes into stasis or whatever, meaning an easy job for Lockdown to just pick him up and dump him on the Creators' doorstep), and Galvatron was utterly worthless because he got turned back to Megatron because there really wasn't ever a difference anyway.

    And frankly? Sentinel Prime was better than Lockdown. Lockdown was just a mercenary who had been hired to do a job, all that bullshit about how he thought the great war was detrimental means nothing because as a bounty hunter supposedly not aligned with either side, his only motivation for being around Earth was to just grab prime and drag him back to his placeholder clients. The fact you're saying this asshole who otherwise NOTHING is known about is the best villain the series has had is laughable. Sentinel Prime? We know exactly who he is, what he's doing being around Earth in the first place, what he's REALLY doing around Earth after he reveals his betrayal, and we know his motivations ultimately are his delusional belief that he's actually trying to save Cybertron - in the absolute worst way possible but again, he's not a good guy in the slightest. Sentinel is the architect behind the entire plan to enslave humanity and use them and Earth's resources to rebuild Cybertron and he's willing to sell out his own side to do it...Lockdown is nothing more than the hired help acting as a proxy for 'The Creators' except they never actually show the fuck up nor are they ever actually explained why they have Not-Destro running around space grabbing up dinosaur 'ancient primes' and also Optimus other than some dumb-ass vague statement of more or less wiping the slate clean I guess?

    No, AoE is still a massive decline in quality because its writing is just so shit. SO MUCH of it relied on the follow up films to bother explaining probably half the plot justification in AoE, because in AoE shit just happens for the sake of happening - Lockdown is just a punch-clock villain who would ditch evil Fraiser's ass if it meant getting Optimus faster, but WHY he wants Prime for these undefined bastards who are paying him is never explored, the dinobots just EXIST, and somehow Prime is also now a knight because already being super special as The Last Prime doesn't mean shit all of a sudden...except the whole thing about being a knight kinda means nothing because they hamfisted in the middle ages to make the connection and the ever-fucking-useless Cade is the actual titular Last Knight because it isn't like he wasn't enough of a Mary Sue.

    If your plot relies on follow up content to justify actions taken first, except the follow up content completely and utterly fails to adequitely support the early stuff? That's not good writing! What that is in reality is poor plotting that tries to put off actually coming up with reasons for shit to happen and then failing to actually provide what the reasons were - which just further supports my stance they didn't know what the fuck they were doing in AoE besides trying to pull a hard reboot without actually rebooting, and this was supposed to launch Paramount's big cinematic universe to rival the MCU? I'm certain that there are film studies classes that point to the Tansformers franchise as ample evidence as to why you don't do that kind of shit.

    Yes, because AoE going scorched earth by removing or straight up killing any and all ties to DOTM with the characters, making humanity how the Autobots were the only reason they were all still alive again, and making Optimus Prime a legitimately useless leader between films, is 'a good job realistically'.

    I don't get why you seem to believe humanity would just readily turn on the Autobots AGAIN after DOTM based on nothing but WORDS at the beginning of a film, this whole complete breakdown of relations being entirely glossed over just to get to the part where the autobots are fucked over yet again because humanity is somehow more effective than literally the entire Decepticon army across three films. It's a sloppily thrown together product that has severe editing problems, is completely tone-deaf to trying to come off as being doom-and-gloom for the Autobots yet is punctuated with humor like that stupid beer can visual gag and a guy getting hit in the face by a car and not somehow immediately having his face caved in by 1.5 tons of metal and rubber hitting it square on the nose, and spends time introducing threats that aren't really explained and utlimately are disposed of at the end of the film, rendering all the build up useless. I mean, Megatron barely even gets to do one or two useful things for the bad guys and he managed to survive TWO FILMS counting him being Galvatron and not dead at the end of AoE, pretty boy Lockdown couldn't even manage THAT.

    So what makes Hound, Drift, and Crosshairs so special then, huh? Why is it that the first film still had one Autobot die, yet when we have the same number of Autobots in AoE, suddenly the worst that can happen is the fat green fuck ALMOST dies? How are the Autobots really even threatened when the only ones that die are completely disposable nobodies introduced specifically to die and as such their death carries NO weight? Everybody gave a fuck about Ratchet getting offed in AoE because as little characterization as he got across the three previous films, he was at least a recognizable face who wasn't a complete asshole like all the new guys. Like, you're so gung ho about the 'realism' going on, why couldn't Hound die? Would his death have carried the same emotional weight or would he really have just ended up as another Jazz?
     
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  8. Galvatross

    Galvatross Swamp Lord Shrek-traoridinairre! Veteran

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    If someone says that official Transformers movies with many of the core concepts in the brand are not Transformers movies, then that person is not being realistic. They don't need to like them. They don't need to support them. They don't need to mention them. However, if they are going to criticize them, then they need to be factually correct. And that goes for supporters as well.

    Says the guy who sounds angry in all of his posts about toy-based franchise entertainment. You don't have to like them, but get your facts straight (General "you," not you "you."), and there's no need to be angry over Transformers of all things.

    Wow! I'm amazed you actually admit that. Did you finally watch the movie?


    Well they are the same guy, but at least AoE actually shows how Galvatron is formed and gives him an important role in the story.


    Please do not dismiss evidence from the film that you were possibly biased against from the get-go.

    Yes, I think Lockdown is the best antagonist in the films, including Sentinel, and it's an opinion that's well supported, even if you disagree. Sentinel, while great, lacked the nuance of Lockdown. Lockdown didn't think much of humans and the other species he encountered because of how egotistical their worldviews were. He didn't seem to like Earth much either, nor did he mind human casualties. At the same time, he was willing to work with humans, and he didn't actively try to destroy or enslave humanity despite his arguably misanthropic attitude. He wasn't a bad villain; he was the most refreshing villain in the franchise, because for once we had an antagonist who wasn't this evil Prime or Decepticon trying to destroy or enslave Earth and humanity. He wasn't just a bounty hunter. He was a bounty hunter with an ideology that it was his duty to rein in both factions because their wars were destroying the universe, and that loyalty to the Autobots, Decepticons, or humans was something that would come back to bite you. He's the most fascinating antagonist in the films I'd say.

    Keep in mind I'm not saying it's laughable if you think Sentinel is better than Lockdown, but it's silly to dismiss my opinion when I have always given plenty of valid evidence in support of why I have my opinions.


    Then by that definition every bounty hunter and mercenary in existence becomes crap by default.


    The writing is about on par with DotM. It's definitely better written than RotF and TLK and, I'd say personally, the 2007 film. Either way, DotM and AoE and 2007 are all trying to do different things, but their writing is about the same quality.

    If anything, while the writing quality is about the same between most of the movies, I'd say AoE's plot actually makes more sense than DotM's in context, and definitely much more in context than TLK. Funny enough RotF, which is certainly one of the weaker-written entries, also makes a lot of sense in context, as nonsensical as a lot of it is. Both RotF and AoE are actually much more rooted in their predecessors than DotM and TLK are, and in that sense one can argue that they work well enough as sequels.


    Because it fits with both his job and his ideology. He hates the factions and their wars, and he views it as a job, too.


    Once again you show a double standard between the earlier films and the newer films. You know who else just exists? Barricade, Starscream, Blackout, Frenzy, Scorponok, Brawl, Ravage, Devastator, Skids and Mudflap, Jolt, Shockwave, the Driller, etc.

    Not that it's a big issue, really. We really don't need elaborate backstories for ensemble casts of robots. Frankly, I think the idea that every character or creature needs a backstory is the most overrated idea in fiction, because what's more important is having characters that make sense in the current context of the story.

    Which is the fault of the sequel then and not the earlier film.

    I have actually seen some evidence that during AoE's production they actually did have ideas as to where they were going, but TLK never ran with them. Bay specifically said you would see things in the Knightship that would be teased for future films, but none of it shows up in TLK.

    For instance, in AoE's behind the scenes stuff it's revealed that The Knightship was from a world other than Cybertron. Never mentioned or anything in Transformers 5. Given that information and the ship's design (It's very similar to the Creators' ships; it lacks those vertical "coils" the Creator ships do), my educated guess is that it was meant to come from the Creator homeworld, and that we would have gone that direction in TF 5 as opposed to Cybertron coming to Earth a second round.

    Another example is the weapons in the Knightship. During Transformers 4's production a set photo was released showing the giant melee weapons. It was revealed by the person who got the photo that one of the weapons belonged to Megatron. The story and accompanying photo was taken down by Paramount's request, suggesting to me it was true. I am not even sure where on the internet one would be able to find that story these days. Either way, it's abundantly clear Megatron had a past connection to the Knightship and its weapons that was not mentioned in TLK.

    Keep in mind all of this was well before the Writer's Room. What exactly happened is something I can only speculate on.

    First off, AoE is heavily connected to DotM. Megatron is a decapitated head in a Chicago laboratory. Humans are scavenging Cybertronian technology left over from Chicago. Attinger forms Cemetery Wind because of Chicago. "Remember Chicago" billboards. Cards showing deceased Transformers. Sentinel Prime's head in a laboratory. An injured Brains shows up, and he actually plays a role.

    Second of all, the Autobots were literally ambushed by Lockdown and Cemetery Wind. Optimus didn't even realize what was happening until he himself was ambushed by Lockdown and Cemetery Wind, an attack in which he himself was heavily injured and barely able to make it out alive, after which he sent his message. And even then, he had no clue who gave the orders or why they were working with Lockdown.

    The reason why it's a good job realistically is because it was better than the alternatives; they didn't take the easy ways out. Plus, DotM killed off the previous villains, so they had to do something that was a little different in terms of antagonists.

    The Shia story had run its course. Another film with Witwickies and N.E.S.T. with the Autobots fighting Decepticons would have been too similar to what came before.

    They could have gone the Unicron route, but we already saw a giant planet come to Earth in DotM , and a Unicron story may have been difficult to do on the big screen in live action. It probably would have been an earlier version of TLK.

    Instead, they chose a third route, and one that was more creative if you ask me. Instead, we get actual consequences to the Chicago battle. Instead of more random Decepticons coming to Earth, we get a bounty hunter, human mercenaries, and human-built robots. That's far more interesting than either a fourth round of Witwicky-N.E.S.T.-Decepticon action and drama or Unicron coming toward Earth and bringing his heralds.

    Before Transformers 4 came out, I would have wanted a more traditional Transformers movie as the fourth movie, but sometimes getting something you didn't want exactly can be better than something you do want, because it can help you see things in new perspectives.

    Based on the fact that there are plenty of real world instances of human factions and governments betraying reliable allies, even to the point of genocide, and that's to our own species. Extrapolate that to an alien species that is much more physically durable, has integrated weaponry and other technology, whose war has caused damage to our planet, and who can be in disguise in plain site and tell me humans would be so much more understanding. All it would take would be the right (or wrong depending on how you look at it) group of ideologues to get into the right positions, and policies secretly change, and people who were allies are no longer treated as allies.

    But did a notable Autobot die in AoE? Yes, one did. Two if one counts Leadfoot, even if he was just a single member of a trio from DotM. I'm not sure why we need to bring up an imaginary scenario with Hound dying.

    I do think TLK should have killed a major Autobot though.
     
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  9. electronic456

    electronic456 Dog of Raw

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    I really feel like there's not a lot to take away from the thread....

    I get it....We are just consumers at best and mostly we provide the feedback. So unless we're in the industry or whatever, we don't have much....IMO the best entertainment we give to ourselves is our own fan fiction.

    Like whatever you want but don't be an aggressive asshole and repeatedly stab other people in back for not sharing similar thoughts.

    Brad/Cinema Snob hated DOTM but didn't hate AOE.... He's entitled.

    Pewdiepie made a video titled 'I DON'T LIKE MARVEL MOVIES' explaining how fatigued he is with superhero movies. He's entitled to this 'controversial' opinion.

    I'm getting sick of the old arguments of 'quality'.


    We're moving forward with Bumblebee and all I care about what's ahead compared to whatever happened before.
    [​IMG]

    *sigh* At least the argument is keeping the topic of the movies relevant. I mean that in a neutral way.
     
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  10. siccoyote

    siccoyote Worst side of the fandom

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    Stabbing people in the back is doing it without their knowledge.

    This is just face to face disagreements.

    It's more like stabbing each other in the fucking face.
     
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  11. electronic456

    electronic456 Dog of Raw

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    It hurts either way.

    I'm also disappointed that some people actually agree that this is the case.
     
  12. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    I think a key difference is we have 10 years and 20 movies in the MCU. To go that long that many films and only have a few examples of where Marvel/Disney crossed a line is a pretty impressive record. Eventually someone was going to make a joke that went too far and someone was going to miss the chance to say hey we can't use that joke.

    Transformers on the other hand it's not will something be cringe worthy and cross the line this time but how cringe worthy will things get this time and how many times will they cross lines best uncrossed when kids of all ages will be showing up for the movie.

    Plus Marvel/Disney seems to more responsive to viewer feedback so if they got a lot of angry letters, e-mails, tweets, or posts from angry parents then we have likely heard our last penis joke in the MCU. Transformers on the other hand hasn't exactly been the most responsive to people saying hey that's not cool.
     
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  13. electronic456

    electronic456 Dog of Raw

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    This I understand.

    But I just don't like it when people try to explain stuff to me as if I'm naive and therefore 'dumb'. I've defended stuff from TLJ like what happened with Snoke but it had little sway so I don't know why I must switch my mind/perspective on a single joke. Even if it's by Drax.

    And I don't hate Guardians 2, mind you. It's a very pretty looking movie that has a lot of stuff in it. But I guess that's another story.
     
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  14. Moy

    Moy Constructicons!

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    :cry 
     
  15. stanproloso

    stanproloso Member

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    i disagree with that
     
  16. Dinobot Snarl

    Dinobot Snarl Well-Known Member

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    Sorry its not Transformers, that's what you wanted right. Bait Taken.
    Its a monster movie written by an Action Movie director, based very loosely on Transformers. Much like Atlantic Rim is not Pacific Rim, sure they have giant robots but it doesn't make it a film about Jeagers.
    You could replace all the transformers characters with any scifi fictional creature of the time and the movies would be the same. It was seemingly written, directed and designed almost as a direct affront to existing fans.

    The premise of Transformers as creatures was compelling enough to make 5 movies. Make no mistake existing fans were not watching (if they were watching) to see their favorite characters on the big screen, no it was just the spectacle. Character's like Optimus Prime (A consistently good to a fault character) was given an outrageous out of character blood lust. Being the only recognizable "character" I put the word character in parenthesis because none of the Transformers....with the exception of Lockdown were fleshed out, meant now we are left with name slaps, and actual creatures. Yes they Transform but these are monsters that change shape not Transformers which have varied through the decades but do have some consistency of design.

    Typically fan outrage would sink movies that stray so far from established lore or even expectation: See Starwars Last Jedi, but the compelling nature of Transforming creatures was enough in of itself to keep this abomination going for 5 films, we all know it wasn't the writing or the story.

    I know I'm posting this in a forum where movie fans are out numbering me so I'm sure I'll get all sorts of take down responses and petty comparisons. But no, Micheal Bay's outing was not Transformers, it could have been named "Shapeshifters" for all the visual and character resemblances to any existing Transformers.

    Did anyone see Ready Player One? When the Gundam showed up, looking like a GUNDAM, not some reinterpretation, everyone got chills and the response was so great that a live action movie is coming forth. I wish I got those chills from my favorite franchise.
     
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  17. sideswipe3

    sideswipe3 Well-Known Member

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    Kinda sad that this is a controversial' opinion I like Marvel movies and don't care about Pewdiepie at all but still, it is his opinion. It's like if you got called a monster for not liking ice cream.
     
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  18. Galvatross

    Galvatross Swamp Lord Shrek-traoridinairre! Veteran

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    If you don't like the execution of the movies, that is fair enough, but I think any franchise that has transforming robots from Cybertron, Optimus Prime and Megatron as leaders in their respective factions, Autobots coming to Earth and befriending a Witwicky, the Transformers being made as slaves by another race, and so on, all which are core concepts in the brand, can safely be called Transformers.

    Even if some of the robots are monstrous in appearance and personality, that's something that can still be Transformers. G1 had the Sharkticons and Terrorcons after all. Heck, one of my complaints is that we never so those guys of all Transformers given they would fit perfectly in a hypothetical film with the Creators and what-not, and they're examples of Transformers for whom being snarling monsters would make perfect sense.

    And I myself would love to see more characters like Lockdown, so in that I'd agree. But, hypothetically speaking, even if Lockdown was the only Transformer in that movie, and he made deals with humans to hunt alien monsters loose on Earth, then that movie would still be a Transformers movie because it would still feature a transforming, sapient, sentient Cybertronian, even if it lacked the traditional factions that dominate most stories in the brand.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
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  19. Bass X0

    Bass X0 Captain Commando

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    This is my preferred aesthetic for modern Transformers artwork and toys.

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  20. Russian fan

    Russian fan Proud Autobot Ally

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    Great words! Transformers never had something classical. After G1 there were a lot of other cartoons, games, comics and so on. We had Beast Wars, which are more different from G1, than Michael Bay's Movies! The tendency to restore "classic" Transformers appeared only after the Movieverse came. Not because Movies aren't about Transformers, but, as I think, because Movies are complicated and more realistic, than cartoons. And a lot of original fans are unhappy with that. But they have a lot of things to enjoy now. And there are a lot of new fans, from new generation, who enjoy Movies and don't like cartoons, like me. Everyone has a right to be happy! Movies are movies, cartoons are cartoons. They must be different, it is normal. If you don't like the Films, it is OK for you and Movies themselves. I can't understand why people make a disaster from the fact, that they don't like the Movies. The core Transformers spiritis the same, whether you like the form or not.
     
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