Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Livingdeaddan, Mar 16, 2017.
That's it exactly.
Nope. The "anti-girl" thing is indeed happening, under the guise of "this message* is feminism and feminism is bad so this is bad".
(* message, not method. This isn't about people having beef with the method or delivery, it's the ones complaining about the message)
Because there are 2 types I've encountered on the 'net who are avidly against "feminism":
1) good old fashioned "women shouldn't be allowed to vote" types
2) "I'm not against traditional/original feminism of back in the day that wanted equality, I'm against modern/extreme/third-wave feminism that's about making women better than men and making men not act like men, etc - because it's no longer about equality" types
If you're type 1 then there's no reasonable conversation to be had here.
If you're type 2, explain to me how this is extreme/third-wave feminism and not original equality feminism. Because her character doesn't say she's better than boys, or that girls hot/throw/fight better than boys. She's saying "like a girl" shouldn't be an insult anymore, because it should no longer mean "worse than and lesser".
"Like a girl" = "like a boy". Equal, not better than.
So explain how this feminism in the trailer is bad.
Or were you all just "anti-virtue signaling"?
I don't mind the character-- as a matter of fact, she looks like one of the most interesting human characters we've had since 07.
What I am slightly leary of-- and slightly annoyed by --is the possibility of substituting a whole lot of empty talk about "girl power" and making her a reckless, brash idiot like Miko, for actually developing her as a person and a character in the movie.
Male directors and writers very frequently confuse "strong female character" for "make her a hyper-agressive dumbass who never gets hurt or has to suffer consequences". And that's annoying to me, personally.
A "strong female character" is a female character who is well developed within the movie, shown as a multi-faceted person + not used as a sex object or plot-device (ex: damsel-in-distress), and not given unrealistic character-weaknessesses or virtues she would not otherwise have were she a dude.
A strong female character is a female character who is presented thoroughly, as a person. No more, no less.
It's about people trying to make themselves look superior or feel superior thinking they need to stand up for people who don't need them as a shield.
Then the comments about "whiny man babies" and the like makes them look just a douchey as the supposed "whiny man babies".
I'm not standing up for a person, I'm standing up for a message. The message in the trailer.
This whole fighting happened like this:
1) Bay/Paramount/Moner make a trailer with a pro-girl message.
2) Some commenters post angrily that the message is feminism and therefore bad. Some add personal attacks on the actress. Some rant about "PC/Feminazis/***s".
3) Other commenters, including me, respond by either "standing up for" Moner or the message or both (I'm focusing on the message). Aka this thread. Some also throw in angry posts against "man children/MRAs/etc".
4) Some of the people in #2, plus other newer comments, then post angrily about "*** / Virtue Signalers" who "won't allow criticism", etc.
I'm going back to the roots. We know why #1 happened (marketing). I'm asking why #2 happened and what makes it true, to their minds.
Your post here is about item #3, and I agree no one should be throwing the insults (me included).
But why are we there in the first place? It's a direct response to #2. Why did #2 happen, and what makes it a valid statement/argument? Because there would be no #3 if #2 hadn't prompted it.
Person/message/whatever... It's the same concept. The point is you don't need to stand up for "fighting like a girl", and both sides are looking equally as ridiculous.
Figured this thread would be locked by now with all the feminazis, please lock this thread.
Looks like virtue signaling to me.
"Hey everyone! Look how enlightened and moral I am! Let's all display a hashtag so that everyone can see how 'just' we are.
You can put lipstick on a pig...
So none of you can actually explain or defend the initial statement of "this is feminism and feminism is bad so this is bad" then?
Just throw around "feminazi" and "virtue signaler" insults and anyone who questions it?
Figured as much.
Feminism has had many forms over a long time, and has covered everything from "women should not be considered property" to "women should be allowed to have jobs and own property" to the more complex and messy forms of today.
To broadly label all of that as "bad" is a huge statement against an entire gender, including all the women on the forums.
If you don't label all of that as bad, then not all of feminism is bad. You must consider a certain type to be bad, most likely modern/third-wave feminism. I'm not going to take up an argument on that front here.
The statement of this trailer is not modern/third-wave. It does not make such claims. It is clearly saying "like a girl does not mean worse than like a boy".
Explain to me how that is bad.
Nah I'm just defending my rights as a male against all the Beta males out there
i mean fuck, i'm type 2 but i agree with the message of the trailer. i've got 3 nieces and want them to grow up in a world without prejudice, whether it's for either party/gender/whatever. i don't see how this shit is feminazi at all. like you said it's a girl making a point about not being looked down on or underestimated because she's a girl. i'm so lost on how anybody can possibly think it's extremism
Which rights? How are they being violated by these "beta males"?
And kudos on leaving out the third word after "beta male". Rare to see.
I have no problem with isabella I think she'll be great in this movie like rosie huntington whitely was.
I just hate all the dumb feminsts that think woman are being tied down like they have no rights.
I'm sorry but I am not putting a hashtag in my signature.
Why ask questions you know the answers to?
Moner's character's statements are clearly old school, equality feminism and not modern/third-wave feminism. Her comments are that "like a girl" is not inferior to "like a boy". It is just as good, aka equal. She does not say "like a girl" is better than "like a boy".
The logical "answers" to my question, therefore, are that either
a) they didn't really pay attention to what her character said, and instead just knee-jerk reacted with "Oh no! Femenists!", even though if they thought about it they'd realize "Oh, actually that's the old school equality type feminism I have no beef with, not the new stuff".
b) They understood the message and got mad because they don't actually believe men and women are equal. This is not impossible to encounter these days. I recently found a thread on a geek site that was genuinely arguing for removing women's right to vote.
I don't know whether the comments are coming from people who believe the former or the latter (or something else that's a surprise). I'm hoping the former. I worry it's the latter.
I've asked someone -anyone- to clarify their belief in this regard.
No one has yet.
I guess I'm type 2, but.....I don't give a shit. It's a fucking movie, I'm gonna go watch it. If I like it, I like it. If I think it sucked, then I think it sucked. End of story. At the end of the day, it's still...just...a...movie.
By asking people to explain, you're in essence asking people to get infracted, banned, and this thread being locked. Unfortunately. You and I both know how these "conversations" can go, so it's best to not have them here...at the very least.
And I ain't puttin' no god damned hashtag bullshit in my signature.
Again I have no problem that she's a girl. I just find her dialogue really annoying. Like her screaming at Megatron. It's just, irritating to listen too.
I almost agreed with you but then I remembered something. Isabela Moner is 15. That's something I think we're forgetting. Whether anyone's problem is with her acting, the message, the dialogue or the films in general, the hate shouldn't be taken to a 15 year old's Facebook page (or was it twitter). I do think that with all the hate she's receiving, standing up for her is fair. Look at how all the insults and mocking has driven Shia insane and he's an adult. Afterall, Izzy may be a bad ass street orphan but Isabela is just a young actor.
I will not, however, advocate "#Ifightlikeagirl" no matter what as "yeah I fight like a girl" is still atrocious dialogue.
Separate names with a comma.