WTF Primetime - 38 - The Human Legacy - September 24 2012

Discussion in 'WTF @ TFW Transformers Podcast' started by Vangelus, Oct 4, 2012.

  1. Tikin

    Tikin Well-Known Member

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    Speaking as someone who loved Prime from the beginning and still enjoys it, I really want to hear the commentary on the blu-ray go into just what happened with this season. The ideas, acting talent, story concepts, characters and animation are all great, something just seems to be getting in the way of execution.
     
  2. citygrl903

    citygrl903 Autobot

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    I was excited for The Human Factor part of the podcast.. oh well... I really liked the episode. To me it was the darkest episode next to Crossfire.

    My thoughts are that Cylas came to Megatron wanting to join him so he had to prove himself. At first Megarton didn't give a scrap about him because he was "an abomination" to them. So Cylas gave him the satellite to prove himself, which worked until Raf hacked it and it fell out of orbit, burning in the sky and ruining Cylas's chance of joining the Decepticons. And on top of that, he failed to terminate the kids while they were hacking the satellite. So to Megatron, he's a failure and no longer serves a purpose and as we've seen with Starscream in Rock Bottom, once you no longer serve a purpose, you're pretty much dead. Cylas got what he deserves. He cut up Cybertronians to see what made them "tick" and now he's the one getting cut up.
    Maybe I would've liked to see more of him with the Decepticons, but after his failures I highly doubt Megatron would've given him another chance to prove himself worthy to stay. So right now I really don't see a purpose for Cylas staying any longer.

    But yeah, I thought it was pretty good.

    Surprised you guys didn't mention Raf's bedroom, 'cause we haven't seen a bedroom on Prime before. Also Sumalee Montano voicing Raf's mom. And Raf's full name. :p 

    As for the relics, I don't really mind them... I feel like they'll add up to something we have yet to see.
     
  3. Vectorwave

    Vectorwave Member

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    screw the Red Star Sabre. There should be a Mauve Star Saber.
     
  4. Stardust262

    Stardust262 Moe is the Only Way

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    What about Red Red Energon?
     
  5. Bountyan

    Bountyan Well-Known Member

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    I agree with nearly everything you guys are saying. A random new relic or device every week is getting extremely old. I found the Human Factor to be a huge waste of what I thought would be a cool plot with MECH. I was expecting it to be season finale tier cool story telling, but if it's just this 1 episode plot just to introduce yet another random plot device just to have Silas die at the end then it really was a disappointment.
     
  6. mrgalvaprime

    mrgalvaprime #BanTJ

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    I still havent watched legacy yet, this is the longest ive ever gone without reading tfwiki articles on episodes. Ill probably watch them all after the finale is uploaded on youtube
     
  7. Dragonalchemist

    Dragonalchemist Kiba-The-Life-Guardian

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    I agree on this about Silas terminating his men solely because he basically got what he wanted. They weren't a family. Just replaceable people in a terrorist group that followed under Silas. So I can understand the perspective of him killing off his men after he was activated.

    Megatron I knew from the beginning was not going to keep Silas around.

    1) He's human

    2) He's in one of his men and using it as a puppet/toy to do his work and be a wannabe cybertronian

    3) His Damacles didn't work and he failed to destroy the kids.

    Megatron didn't see the need nor point to keep Silas around and with Silas being a person with a high ego he would have eventually turned against Megatron for whatever reason. To take over the Cons...I don't think so because what would Silas really do with them? They wouldn't follow him like the same for Starscream or serve as loyally. Megatron would have come back anyways and destroyed Silas. It would be the same thing from season 1 all over again. So what's the point in keeping Silas around. None for Megatron. Besides if humans are capable as Silas he'll want to learn how Silas came to be and probably be prepared for another thing (mcguffin) deal to stop that.

    If Silas is somehow to still be alive he might be watched and always have some guards to keep a close on him or just him escaping and being another faction akin to Starscream's position: alone.

    So this episode was still good to me anyways. I liked it to a certain point, but after listening to the podcast there are so many things the writers could have done, but really I don't see how it could go along with the plot or if they would have time to put it in just for the fan's pleasure. It seems like its just mixed up and in a intersection of what to do's in this show.

    They did say this season was just based on finding the relics so next season its probably going to fix all this up. Get the boring and drawn out stuff out of the way that probably builds up to something potential. We don't know. I just hope they do better this next season and hope they get their writers together and really work as a team and keep up with the story and make sure not as many plotholes or mcguffins happen.

    What I really hope is they work on is what the writer's planned on for what it takes to be a prime. So far we haven't seen anything of that. Maybe some hints here or there but nothing that is actually spoken or given for us to really learn. So far we just know Prime being Pax and only a Prime can wield the legendary prime weapons. That's it.

    Sorry for the long reply.
     
  8. zandergb

    zandergb Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of plot threads that haven't gone anywhere (and will likely end quickly due to the number of episodes left in the season if they do use them): YO KNOCK OUT, made any progress with that synthetic energon?
     
  9. FatalT 71

    FatalT 71 Mr. JazzHunter

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    GogDog was spot on with his description of MECH as a paramilitary unit - with it's ranks most likely being constituted out of whatever rogues Silas could cull from the SEALs, Force Recon, Delta, and Special Forces, MECH was probably much like any other special operations unit. Tightly knit, doing everything together, all oriented on a common goal.

    However, Prime being Prime...I'm not certain that the writers have the sort of background on special operations personnel that people like myself and GogDog have - and if they do, I'm pretty certain that they don't reasonably expect a large chunk of the audience to have a working knowledge of special operations either. I've found that descriptors such as "special forces" and "black ops" conjure up a certain stereotype in the minds of civilians and others not associated closesly with the military - visions of black clad men carrying rifles with lasers sights, killing their enemies clandestinely, performing their duties outside of the established rules of engagement. It's a rather romanticized version of what these operators do, and I've seen an operator get a good chuckle when a private asked him if they really do that sort of thing. So, by classifying Silas and MECH as rogue operators, the writers of the show are able to give the organization a certain credence, that these are highly skilled, highly trained men who know how to work in the shadows, and worst of all - they're the enemy, so we should reasonably be in fear of them and their capabilities. And since their leader is a Colonel - a rank many not understand the significance of - simply the use of that rank indicates he is a very important person to the lay viewer, who knows that a colonel is more important that some sergeant or captain.

    Which brings me to Silas. Truly one of my favorite characters in the show, he's depicted as intelligent and ruthless, the sort of person who is not above forming casual alliances, then breaking them when it suits him - I'm sure Airachnid and Starscream will back me up here. Silas has been intrigued with Cybertronians since "Convoy" - we've known all along that it's been intention to somehow create one of his own. Cybertronians are an "ultimate" sort of weapon for him, an unstoppable force that, if controlled, will help him acheive whatever ends he originally envisioned for MECH. We all thought that this process, "Project Chimera", came to its fruition with Nemesis Prime - the combination of a human operator and a giant, transforming robot. It sure seemed that way to me.

    But how much do we actually know about Project Chimera? I know people have bandied about many different opinions as to it's nature, even using the very definition of the word "chimera" to try and draw conclusions. What if Project Chimera's ultimate goal was that what we witnessed in "The Human Factor" - not a combination of human ability and Cybertronian strength and power, but a true melding of the two? I mean, I know it's never been stated outright, but could this truly have been the direction that Project Chimera was heading in? I feel it could have been, had MECH been able to work through the initial bugs and hiccups with the control interface we saw for Nemesis Prime. Silas' grave injuries and the discovery of Breakdown's corpse likely offered MECH an early opportunity to put theory into practice - the reasoning probably being, if Silas dies, well he was so terribly injured that he wasn't going to make it anyway; but if he lives, he'll surely reward us somehow for fulfilling his ultimate objective.

    In any event, for Silas, I'm reasonably certain that the events of "Nemesis Prime", and the injuries he sustained in it left him not only broken physically, but affected him mentally. According to what we know, and don't have to extrapolate, Silas was left in a coma, with his body shattered - who can tell what sort of damage his brain suffered before he was revived? And when he comes to he finds that his body has been wedded and melded to that of one of the lifeforms he had so recently been trying to replicate - or, if you will, finds that his men have succeeded in taking him to what he perceives as the ultimate rung on the power ladder? And we have seen what Silas does when he has no more use for something - when Starscream was of no further benefit to MECH, Silas turned right on him and harvested his T-Cog. While I'd like to think that as a member of special operations unit, Silas feels the fraternity and comradeship with his men - but I see him ultimately as an opportunist, who is as likely to slit your throat when you back is turned as he is to shake your hand, depending on what's in it for him.

    So, in my view of things, Silas had gained the power he set out to attain. MECH was of no more use to him - so he destroyed it. Silas doesn't seem the type to leave loose ends laying around behind - at least not loose ends that can potentially bring him down. I found his actions surprising, but when I thought about it - to be IN character with how I perceived Silas. Of course, YMMV.

    Just thought I'd add my :2c:  to the discussion.

    And I do hope that since Silas-Breakdown's end was never actually seen, only implied...we see more of him in the future somehow. Having Clancy Brown around can only help the show.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012
  10. worldsgreatest

    worldsgreatest Well-Known Member

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    I'm looking forward to seeing him as a head in a jar in future episodes. Possibly as the middle square in Hollywood Squares.
     
  11. citygrl903

    citygrl903 Autobot

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    Oh! I just remembered, the decoy relic jar thing in Legacy was red. ;) 
     
  12. SeekerofTruth20

    SeekerofTruth20 Prime of Primes

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    To be honest, I rather enjoyed "Human Factor." I may have perceived MECH's role somewhat differently though. The MECH story arc was pretty fun to watch, and to see it apparently end wasn't to me unsatisfying. Now it could be possible that it was just a portion of MECH, but who knows, I'm making assumptions. I do hope the writers carry on with MECH but I won't be upset with how it turned out.

    When Silas woke up and discovered he pretty much got what he always wanted, he destroyed all loose ends to go be among, as he put it, "titans." He was now what he perceived to be the perfect amalgamation of man and machine. However, the Decepticons were insulted and disgusted by his presence. He did after all, take the corpse of Breakdown and use it as his own new body.

    Megatron decides to humor Silas, and allows him a chance to prove himself. After all, the human factor worked so well for the Autobots. Project Damocles was set in motion, looked pretty cool, then was thwarted by Raf (I let this go cause we got to see more Fowler). I thought the end of the episode was very dark and fantastic. This is my opinion, but I really felt like the tables had turned on Silas. He tortured Breakdown, used his chassis for a new body and was now getting his due. His plan failed miserably and he failed to follow the orders of Megatron to destroy the children. Megatron was not going to allow some mutant hybrid of fleshling and Cybertronian in his ranks. He gave Silas over to Knockout, Breakdown's former partner, and ordered dissection. We got really great character out of Knockout as well. I thought it was a sort of ironic justice. Silas got to be among "titans" and paid for it.

    I am not in any way saying this is the last of Silas, but who knows at this point. The episode had really creative dark imagery and while the story could have been more drawn out with Silas and the Decepticons, I didn't leave the episode feeling disappointed. Silas' arrogance cost him dearly. We'll see what happens next.

    That's my thought on it. I enjoyed your Podcast, as always. :) 
     
  13. Jive Guru

    Jive Guru Professional Amateur

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    Breakdown get's taken out. Perfectly fine with it. It was a legitimate shock, Did not see it coming, wasn't a no-name character, he had an established personality, he still had unresolved plot going on, he was a fan favorite, he had a lot going for him, then Boom, he's dead. It set the stakes for the show, but people are just being whiny. Get over it, basically is the sentiment.

    MECH/Silas gets taken out. What a wasted potential! It was a legitimate shock, didn't see it coming, wasn't a no-name character, had an established personality, still had potential, was a fan favorite, had a lot going for him, then Boom, they are gone. Catastrophic Decision! Boooooo!

    ;-)

    Do I sense some Clancy Brown favoritism here?
     
  14. Bountyan

    Bountyan Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly what was wrong with it.

    Good storytelling > cheap shock value that only works for a few seconds after you see the episode for the first time.
     
  15. Jive Guru

    Jive Guru Professional Amateur

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    I'm just saying that the guys used the same excuses to justify two different things to opposite ends.
     
  16. Bountyan

    Bountyan Well-Known Member

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    Oh. For some reason I misread "Breakdown" and read it as Silas/MECH.
     
  17. GogDog

    GogDog Logic's wayward son Veteran

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    Completely inaccurate statement. The episode featuring Silas' death was crap. The episode featuring Breakdowns death was a great one. The reasons we gave for our opinions for each was completely unique. It's cool if you disagree with our opinions, but your statement is flat out untrue.

    You do make some interesting points, but I don't think it's fair to boil hours of discussion down to five convenient sentences. You could do the same to an Oscar winning film and a W.S. Anderson flick.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012
  18. SideswipePrime

    SideswipePrime Reply Dump Extraordinaire

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    You keep saying "Red Star Saber" I kinda want to see that now
     
  19. updatedude

    updatedude Well-Known Member

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    Not to be dissenting, and I agree with your reasons for why Breakdown's death was great. But at the same time, for me personally, I didn't really feel anything when Breakdown first died. It didn't even fully register to me that he was DEAD dead, despite being reduced to a decapitated pile. And I felt he had a few more directions he could have gone before being totally "used up". But I recognize others thought his death was a great mid-point tone setter for that episode.

    I'm gonna say I enjoyed Human Factor though. I knew there would surely be parts of the fandom who would hate it for the apparent end of MECH, but me, I liked it. I'm admittedly not the biggest MECH fan. Though I still like them, I thought they were already into or skirting the Bayverse territory of humans being able to take out or outperform Transformers. The whole bit where they cracked Cybertronian mechabiology and could take out Starscream at will was kind of pushing it. Same with how Silas is an apparently better fighter with a physically equal (perhaps even superior) avatar body to Optimus "I obliterate robot zombie hordes for breakfast" Prime. It's just a trope of Transformers storytelling that I've never been a fan of, although I don't object to it too much because it's necessary for the viewer (who is most likely human) to have effective vicarious representative.

    Err, but back to Human Factor. Yeah, considering that Silas was going to end up apparently written out, more focus on him would have been neat. I guess the writers just wanted to tie everything up though. Damocles was mentioned awhile back and I guess with Silas and MECH being taken out, they wanted to tie up that loose end rather than leave it dangling. Could the episode have been better? Sure, I think the story should have been told in a 2 parter. But personally, I really like the ep. Granted, I pretty much like all Prime episodes thus far.

    But this was hardly an episode to be compared to the likes of the Unicron Trilogy (which to be fair, had completely different philosophies in writing that make them nigh incomparable to Prime).

    Anywho, I've rambled. But the short of it is, I've liked both episodes, including Human Factor. But hey, if you genuinely didn't like it, then you didn't like it. Live and let live and all that junk.
     
  20. Cybermnky

    Cybermnky Well-Known Member

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    Human Factor was an example of several great ideas that didn't come together very well.
    I have to say I agree with you on many of your points in this podcast...

    And Gogdog, I was waiting for awhile to hear your thoughts on Human Factor and you did not disappoint.
     

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