would you support this?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by jorod74, Sep 30, 2010.

  1. jorod74

    jorod74 Psycholagnist (Ret.)

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    after growing up the past 36 years watching old "Wild Kingdom" episodes and all those less than human-friendly nature shows on PBS and Discovery, i had an idea.

    it seems that conservation in the real world isn't working like it should. at best, we still have ecologists/biologists telling us that we will lose the rare Blue Whale. or the great white. or "x" other animal.
    it seems that we can't keep using the same methods. wildlife preserves that aren't protected or corruption allows poaching prevents more progress.

    so why can't we learn from Colonel Sanders? from McDonald's?

    you ever seen an extinct chicken? extinct cow? Turkey?

    why can't we "farm" our wildlife? not like this is a new concept, but with a rigid regulatory system, credentialing, licenses...businesses could breed and raise endangered wildlife to not only rebuild the population in the wild, but also to create a supply for zoos and parks that want them without the costs of importing or quarantining the animals.

    this has actually been proven to work, most noticeably in the fishing industry- with offshore salmon farms. not to mention alligator farms.

    and finally, privatization of the farms has many benefits. in several instances where tribes were given certain animals to raise and protect within game preserves, the instances of poaching (and the costs to the government) have decreased. they had a very personal and ecomnomic stake in the animals' well being.

    if only as a study- say, 10-20 years- would you support this approach to save endangered animals? would you support it if proven cost efficient and reasonable?

    why or why not?
     
  2. Nachtsider

    Nachtsider Banned

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    That system's gonna be very impractical where whales are concerned.
     
  3. Tyrannosaur

    Tyrannosaur 100% Sarcastic Saurian

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    It's just that farming something, especially a 200 ton 90+ foot long whale, is just so incredibly expensive. It could possibly work, but the extinction of most animals isn't our fault. It's just nature running it's course.

    I'm more in favor of bringing back animals that are already extinct but that's just me :lol  what you said isn't a bad idea though. Interesting thought.

    One of the main problems is the changing climate. The ice caps are melting, Earth is warming. It may be global warming, but the Earth is and always has gone through phases in history where it cools and heats up for the past four billion years, as our solar system orbits around the galactic core of the milky way. If there's one thing we need to stop doing it is pollution. I think it's best we start with solving the cause of these extinctions, before we move onto halting the extinction itself
     
  4. Dremare

    Dremare Had an Epiphany

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    Well, consider the whales. You gonna need a BIG ASS aquarium for just ONE. It's impractical, and plus, if we did that, we'd domesticate the animals, and they wouldn't really be able to survive on their own.
     
  5. Darkwing48

    Darkwing48 Heroic Decepticon

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    Are you a bit curious why "no one" have thought about this already?
    Put it this way. Why is is a big deal for any animal to breed or give birth in captivity?
     
  6. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Dry built

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    Because then it isn't wildlife.

    Cows, chickens, they can survive in captivity. Other animals can't. Whales need open ocean. To follow their food source, etc. You can't apply the same science to every species. we do already do thsi with some species. Some rare aniamls are bred in captivity.

    However Dremare also raises a good point. Captive animals don't always make it in the wild.
     
  7. Moonscream

    Moonscream YES, We EXIST!

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    There ARE such farms here in the US. For deer, elk, emu, exotic antelope, wolves, tigers, etc...if you've got the money, you can go shoot yourself a prize without leaving our borders, aka a 'canned hunt'. Some of the species are also raised for meat like cattle are. There's an elk farm that supplies meat to an organic grocery I go to.

    A large majority of the pictures on hunting magazine covers are done at these farms, too. They also do nature films there if the producers can't get the shots they want in the wild - I just read yesterday about some famous wildlife film producer cheating on a wolf film that way. And I've also heard from big cat rescuers that there's a glut of tigers because of them as well.

    And don't forget the fur farms. If it has poofy fur, they try to farm it.

    Most of these animals have never, ever learned to hunt or recognize enemies or any other skill they would have learned from their mothers and fathers in the wild, and have more or less acclimated to humans. Letting them out would be cruel to them and potentially deadly to any humans they encounter in the cases of the carnivores.

    --Moony
     
  8. John_Force

    John_Force 16xNHRA Funny Car Champ TFW2005 Supporter

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    Any animal taken from it's natural habitat and raised in captivity, will, as soon as removed from captivity, come to rely on what it thinks is trainers to provide food, when, in fact, said trainers are in fact predators who feast on said animal that was raised in captivity.
    Another fact is the sheer manpower and logistics needed to transport large animals, such as Dremare suggested, a blue or humpback whale.
     
  9. Bumblethumper

    Bumblethumper old misery guts

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    Very succinctly put.

    Farming by its very nature changes everything. Managed forests are key to preventing deforestation elsewhere, but they will never preserve the kind of biodiversity you find in virgin forestland.

    From what I understand, nature reserves are probably the best way forward. We shouldn't get too hung up on the cutesy mammal face of extinction with Pandas and Tigers and whales and dolphins. The focus should be kept on the greater issues such as loss of habitat, overfishing, and deforestation.
     
  10. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    Because farm livestock have been selectively bred over thousands of years away from their wild forms into something specialized for meat yield, reproductive ease and domestication. Many endangered species have specialized needs that would require less human intervention in their existences, not more. Habitat needs, food needs, etc. To say nothing of the fact that many species will not breed in captivity, which makes the whole process of "farming" them moot. Furthermore, many species reproduce too slowly, or have difficulty reproducing due to environmental factors (say for example, DDT and the Peregrine Falcon, though the Peregrines have begun to come back), and such a species would never be viable as a food source for humans, especially a mainstream one. Also, if they're not being used for food, what financial incentive is there for private industry to farm them? If it were economically viable to raise breeding stocks for zoos, wouldn't it already be happening in one of the many captive breeding centres around the world?

    And even if these farms WERE viable economically and from the perspective of the species, farming itself is not always a sustainable system. Numerous methods of aquaculture have huge impacts on their surroundings, due to eutrophication of water systems through the nitrogens in fish faeces. Turning land into specialized grazing land, instead of simply allowing natural grazing over a large range can have huge impacts on soil quality, ecosystemic interactions, and long term environmental status. The list goes on and on.

    The methods that have been proven to work are, unfortunately, some of the least profitable. Preserves and non-economic zones where hunting, pollution, and human activity are prohibited. Still, maybe there is room for some human activity, or even commerce, if it is approached properly, say through sustainable eco-tourism or a more "free range" agricultural approach. But that's for biologists and people with the proper backgrounds to decide, I'm afraid my ability to comment on such solutions is limited.
     
  11. koh4711

    koh4711 King of Hearts

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    Honestly, I think we're getting to a point where animals in captivity/stewardship are going to be a crucial part of any conservation movement. While it remains to be seen whether the population is genetically viable over the long term, the California condor is an example of one animal that was at one point extinct in the wild and has been re-introduced successfully. In fact, there has been success with teaching captive-born condors to avoid new hazards in their environment, such as power lines. Even for species with larger populations, reintroduced members of captive populations represent genetic variation that could be vital.

    There are two real problems with the idea. One, zoological parks aren't always crazy about the idea of parting with members of their collection. This isn't just a "I don't want to lose a big attraction" problem, either. Most endangered animals are placed in a Species Protection Plan within zoos, and every member of a captive population is a crucial part. Secondly, as other people have mentioned, it's hard to know if the animal WILL be able to adapt to their environment once released. Understandably, this is more of a problem with animals of higher intelligence. We have a lot better luck releasing birds than we do cetaceans. A lot of captive animals do have problems learning predator evasion, as it's difficult to simulate in captivity without putting considerable stress on the animal.

    Of course, all of this does go hand in hand with wildlife preserves. The situation is getting better for many of them, but there are a number of logistical issues. One that doesn't often get mentioned is that the natural habitat of animals doesn't stop at national borders, and sometimes the nations in question are at odds. There's no guarantee that the protection one country places on an animal will be observed in another. And in most of these nations, the preservation of wild animals isn't terribly high on the priority list. So you often have to find other solutions... for example, the Red Panda Network is involved with community based conservation, working with the villages in the red panda's natural habitat to increase awareness and, more importantly, finding alternate revenue streams to remove the financial incentive for poaching.

    And ultimately, every animal is going to be different. The red panda was kept as a pet by royal families in India for hundreds of years and generally do well in human care. Other animals don't. Even among marine mammals, bottlenose dolphins do well in captivity, while common dolphins often do not. I think that stewardship of animals is going to play a vital role in maintaining wild populations, but I don't think it's a viable strategy by itself.
     
  12. Ops_was_a_truck

    Ops_was_a_truck JOOOLIE ANDREWWWWWS!!!!!!

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    I sorta acknowledge where you're going with part of your point, but I needed to highlight this -

    A majority of the animals in the last century that have disappeared from the face of the Earth are gone because it IS entirely our fault. Many of the stories about the disappearance of so-and-so animal (i.e., their endangerment or near-extinction) centers around their usefulness as a resource to humans - whales for blubber & oil, buffalo for pelts (also generally considered an annoyance to cattle farmers in the American west since they ate up potentially useful feed grass) certain subspecies of elephants and rhinos for their horns/tusks/hide/etc...

    The argument goes two ways, though, right? 'Cuz you've got one group of folks saying "Fuck it, they're here, it looks like there are plenty of 'em and we need them for our continued survival." The counter-argument is obviously that, if you spend enough time killing one species, you may run out of resources eventually (and that's removing the World WildLife Fund/PETA bias of "save 'em 'cuz they're cute and have a right to live!" and etc.)

    No, the farming idea is a great one, but I think the point people keep making about "If you farm the animals, they're no longer 'wild' per se" is spot on. Also, especially in the case of the landmark endangered species - tigers, buffalo, whales, elephants, etc - these are big fucking creatures and devoting the resources to repopulating them is probably something that is going to take more resources than anybody with a pleasant paycheck is willing to devote cash to, at least for now.

    ...but ya never know. Shit like "whale wars" on Discovery gets people's blood pumping, and if you stir up enough animosity about a subject like this, people start paying attention. Who's to say that Mark Zuckerburg or Bill Gates won't wake up tomorrow and accidentially turn on that Dolphin-saving show on Animal Planet and be like "FUCK ALL THIS. I'm savin' DOLPHINS from now on."
     
  13. Ziero

    Ziero TFW2005 Supporter

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    ....err, they do indeed "farm" whatever endangered species they can. However not all animals breed well in captivity.

    Whales however are impossible to breed in captivity though. Their migratory patterns can literally circle the globe, without those migrations, there is no breeding. A whale will literally swim from one end of the world to breed then go back to the other end to live it's life. There's no way to ever control or regulate creatures who travel on such a massive scale.

    But for the species they can breed in captivity, they most certainly do. And it's worked wonders for them. Some even to the point where their numbers in the wild have reached heathly levels due to the kickstart they got while being on "farms". Every animal is different though and they all need different environments and habitats to survive and thrive.
     
  14. Ops_was_a_truck

    Ops_was_a_truck JOOOLIE ANDREWWWWWS!!!!!!

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    Shit, yeah, you are correct...The way my post reads it makes it sound like no land animals are ever preserved/farmed for species survival...you're absolutely right, though - that type of preservation is in place for some species. My bad.

    ...but the point about the whale preservation is spot on - you'd need a looooot of water to allow them to repopulate and develop while maintaining their relatively complex migratory patterns (if at all.)

    Let's just give 'em shields and lasers.
     
  15. B'Bantor

    B'Bantor Bug Drone

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    Learn from Colonel Sanders & McDonalds? Supply zoos & parks? Preposterous! I've never heard of anything so insolent. :banghead: 
     
  16. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    Also, given that fast food chains are known for using genetically modified animals, unhealthy amounts of drugs and antibiotics in said animals, and keeping said animals in unhealthy and cruel conditions for maximum profit, probably not the best industry to base the idea on.
     
  17. B'Bantor

    B'Bantor Bug Drone

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    I have to stop responding to posts that make me annoyed. I like :D  interaction with my fellow fans. I'm off to the BW appreciation thread.

    * no offense to the OP btw
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2010
  18. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot The Strongest.

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    Yeah, I don't think there's anything natural about what's done with chickens. I have a fat cock (overfed free range pet rooster) and I would hate to imagine him in those circumstances. They're crammed into big warehouses basically on top of each other, living in total darkness over a layer of their own feces and urine. Nasty stuff - if that was life for an entire species, I think I'd prefer extinction.
     
  19. Tigertrack

    Tigertrack Back In The Game!

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    Steal a Klingon's Bird of Pray, fly around the sun at Warp Ten and time travel back to 1980's Earth. Steal two hump-back whales and put them in a very large transparent aluminum container, time travel back home, and your world will be saved. Oh, and don't forget the cute marine biologist at the park.
     
  20. Chaos Muffin

    Chaos Muffin Misadventure Veteran

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    If it would work as planned Im all for it. Kind of feel like it's our responsibility to fix our errors.
    We've killed so much. Everyday at work would be like reaching the end of a Sonic level lol
     

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