Why Transformers Film Franchise can't be like Marvel's MCU?

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by deathzero23, May 11, 2017.

  1. Livingdeaddan

    Livingdeaddan Well-Hated G1'er!

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    He lost me at "would megatron as galvatron.."
     
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  2. 96megatron

    96megatron Well-Known Member

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    At the time in Age of Extinction Megatron took on the name Galvatron, but was still Megatron just using an aliases. So Megatron as Galvatron seemed to be the best way I could describe it.
     
  3. Wraithier

    Wraithier Well-Known Member

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    The movies give the characters just about as much character development as the G1 shows. There haven't really been any significant character arcs; I can't say I've seen Optimus or Bumblebee grow at all, but that's not really the point of these movies. I guess what I'm trying to express is the power of nostalgia factor. These characters all of us have grown up with and come to expect certain character traits from are just not there in my opinion. There is a huge backlog of characters and lore that people are familiar with that is just largely ignored, instead opting to significantly change characters and what they represent, so much so, at least from my point of view, that they are no longer "themselves" and thus I don't feel that nostalgic connection or familiarity with the characters at all. I couldn't care less about any of the characters; didn't bother me in the least when Prime or Ironhide died in the movie-verse.

    Probably beating a dead horse here but Bumblebee is the classic example of this, he went from a tiny scout who doubts himself and somehow got changed into an awesome warrior and a mute. Why? If they want to focus on Bumblebee fine have him start out as that lowly scout and gain confidence and respect throughout the movies and grow into a strong well respected member of the team. Instead we are given useless drivel like Skids and Mudflap
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017 at 9:55 AM
  4. Wraithier

    Wraithier Well-Known Member

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    I think the idea that the Transformers movies have better continuity than the MCU is laughable. I mean every franchise has plot holes, but Transformers movies are among the WORST offenders. I can't think of anything in the MCU as bad as any of these:

    • We are supposed to believe that Mikaela doesn't know Sam after 10 years?
    • Megatron was able to print a map to the All Spark on Archibald Witwicky's glasses before actually having found the All Spark?
    • Putting the All Spark in Megatron's chest kills him, then using a piece of the All Spark in ROTF he is revived?
    • Where did Barricade go between movies?
    • Transformers don't need ships because they can Transform in TF2007, but then in every other movie they need space ships and it is ok.
    • The Transformers have been on Earth for THOUSANDS of years and we have seen no evidence of them - I mean I guess until Archibald Witwicky finds Megatron
    • Transformers can Transform into women? So why bother scanning vehicles? If you want to take over Earth just send in all the human sized Transformers to hide AS humans and then have them exterminate everyone, then the big guys can just clean up.
    • The Pyramids which have been thoroughly explored somehow hide a giant sun destroying machine?
    • Petra which has thoroughly explored somehow hides the Matrix?
    • Why doesn't sam just use the All Spark shard to revive Prime? It worked on Megatron.
    • How is the Matrix even put back together from dust? Sam certainly didn't grab ALL the dust.
    • Sam is killed and the Matrix takes him to robo-heaven?
    • Megatron's jaw is damaged in ROTF in DOTM his upper head is injured?
    • What exactly was the alliance between Sentinel and Megatron? When was it conceived of? So Megatron came to Earth to find the All Spark, but also had previously made plans with Sentinel Prime to enslave humanity and bring Cybertron into the Suns orbit prior to this?
    • Prime is stuck to a sky scraper by wires, but it is shown numerous times that he has SWORDS IN HIS ARMS??
    • Now in AOE Transformers have been on Earth for 65,000,000 years? Still no sign of their existence until 2007 though...and we were also told in ROTF that the Ancient Primes were the first to visit Earth.
    • In other movies there are Energon detectors, in AOE Optimus Prime can crash into a theater and never be found?
    • Where did Sam go?
    • Optimus Prime says something along the lines of he has to get back to the other Transfomers so they can repair him; then he scans a truck and is instantly repaired and is fine. If that's the case when Bumblebee went from old Camaro to new Camaro shouldn't his voice have been repaired?
    • Transformium - so now humans can build Transfomers that can Transform better? Haven't Transformers been around for millions of years? All of a sudden humans can come up with a better way to Transform?
     
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  5. 96megatron

    96megatron Well-Known Member

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    Well Sam is shy and the shy kid who tends to not stand out and are not interesting might be less noticeable to some.
     
  6. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    While Marvel/Disney does keep coming up short on tapping the potential of what their villains could be and a shocking lack of costumed villainy I do give Marvel/Disney props for not killing off all the bad guys all the time. Sure you know the villain is going to lose but at least you don't know for sure if the villain will die, live, or be in one of those comic book situations of looking like they died only to have a way of coming back later.

    With Transformers there really isn't any reasons to get into any of the Decepticons because they are just going to get killed off and only Megatron has an unlimited stack of back from the dead cards to play. So I never got into movie Lockdown because I knew he was as good as dead because kill the bad guy is all these films know how to do.
     
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  7. Wraithier

    Wraithier Well-Known Member

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    For 10 YEARS? LOL I get that they were trying to get Sam to be the shy nerdy kid, but he's more obnoxious and awkward than shy. This is demonstrated by the scene where he tries to sell his grandfathers items as part of a presentation. To be in the same classes together for 10 years and not even notice someone is more than a little bit far fetched.
     
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  8. MnemonicSyntax

    MnemonicSyntax Rooks Gang Leader

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    It's really not. She was obviously aware of him, but didn't know his name.

    She might have not been in all of his classes either.

    When you're the popular kid or part of the popular group, you tend to put yourself first and forget "the little people."

    So no, not really far-fetched at all.
     
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  9. MnemonicSyntax

    MnemonicSyntax Rooks Gang Leader

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    I've already explained this above.

    Megatron knew where it was. He crashed landed in the Arctic and basically froze to the point of stasis.

    There is such a thing as too much power.

    Unknown. But it's been discussed that he probably escaped during the second battle of Chicago.

    The "other" ships such as The Ark were during a time when Cybertron most likely had the capacity to get away with them. The protoforms that the 2007 Transformers turn into seem more like "escape pods" and are used to get off a planet quickly.

    Okay?

    It's probably easier to exterminate "everyone" as a larger being than a smaller one.

    Besides, Alice was out to get information from Sam physically. Sentinel Prime said he wanted to use the humans as slaves.

    Just a week ago, 17 mummies were found in a burial chamber in Egypt. Thoroughly explored indeed.

    Because the Allspark wasn't the only thing that revived Megatron. If anything, it served as a defibrillator.

    Probably not. However, the Matrix is in each facet of the franchise that "Magical McGuffin." Since it has the power to return life, being self-repairing isn't that far of a stretch.

    I don't really get this either, but again, the Matrix is super speshul.

    His jaw is also damaged. Though I can't really explain the head part.

    The alliance was a secret, because Sentinel and Megatron wanted to rebuild Cybertron using Earth as a catalyst. So, Sentinel created the Space Bridge.

    It's not mentioned when Sentinel leaves for Earth, but the Ark at some point loses control and crashes into the moon, where it's found in the 1960s. Megatron might have been aware of Sentinel crashing and either assumed he perished, or, more to Megatron's character; wanted to find the Allspark for himself and didn't care about Sentinel's situation.

    It doesn't necessarily mean he can reach them or is at an angle to cut them. Remember, the blades are *in* his arms (as you said) and therefore can only really be positioned one way.

    And, it looked like most of the entanglement was in the backpack itself, which could be difficult to get to based on size.

    As far as Jetfire knew. Dude was all sorts of geriatric.

    I can't explain this, except that some older places are lined with lead because they used to serve as fallout shelters in the past.

    Public places are known for this, especially in small rural towns. They also served as storm shelters from tornadoes, because they usually had a basement.

    I can't say what the Energon detectors can and cannot detect, but that could be a logical explanation as to why Prime chose a theater in the first place.

    Unknown. Perhaps in hiding.

    We actually had this discussion in another thread the other day. The idea was that Prime, being a Knight (or a Prime) had a failsafe protocol in him that would activate when it was needed the most. Since Bee is not a Prime, he doesn't get everything repaired upon a new scan (this could also explain why Megatron in DOTM didn't get everything repaired either.)

    Though, the failsafe might just be something that fixes specific parts. Audio isn't as necessary as say, a new body or armor, so that might not be a priority.

    Yeah, they've been around a long time and have been fighting each other for a long time too. Based on the destruction of Cybertron, I'd say the Transformers don't even know about themselves because they've been busy fighting. We all know where we came from as humans, but Prime was surprised to find out about "the Creators."

    More to the point: Joshua Joyce has been researching the Transformers for a long time now and basically broke their genome. While they seem more advanced in many ways, for a "robot" and a "computer" it's really just binary numbers. Granted, I tend to prefer these Transformers to be more alien than just a mere robot, but if the Transformium is programmable, it could just be down to a set of binary code.

    And I admit, I love these movies but think Transformium is an extremely stupid idea and absolutely hate that part of AoE. But, it seems easily explained just based on what we've been given.
     
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  10. Wraithier

    Wraithier Well-Known Member

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    I think you are stretching a bit. She was literally in class with him in the previous scene and watched her boyfriend shoot a spitball at him. Sam is getting his first car so his around 16, and he says they've been in class together for 10 years. So this is through elementary and middle school, and even if she is in the "popular crowd" she would still know who he is. Elementary school isn't nearly as "cliquey" as Middle and High School either, maybe you can suspend your disbelief this much, but I can't.
     
  11. MnemonicSyntax

    MnemonicSyntax Rooks Gang Leader

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    You do realize that there are Elementary, Junior High and High Schools that have class sizes over the hundreds, right?

    Also being in the "same class" can also mean "same grade."
     
  12. Wraithier

    Wraithier Well-Known Member

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    Where is this mentioned in the movie? That he was flying to a specific location? Maybe I missed that part.

    Your contrived/assumed explanation is not an in canon explanation, where was this explained in the movie. It's not, therefore its a plot hole.

    Correct so he disappears until DOTM with no in canon explanation so we agree this is a plot hole.

    Again your assumed/contrived answer doesn't make this not a plot hole. It's never explained or discussed in the movies. Even in passing. I know it is because for the first movie Michael Bay didn't understand why Transforming beings needed to travel IN anything. I don't know why he abandoned that concept.

    I give you that it would certainly be easier to exterminate everyone as a larger being. But these are Transformers IE hiding in plain sight, so why isn't Transforming into a human used more? Is this particular Transformer the ONLY one that can scan a human and Transform into one? Is she the only one with exactly the right mass ratio? I'm just trying to express that if you have the ability to Transform into a human it's probably much more advantageous to do that.

    But the movies didn't have the Matrix powered Sun gun in the desert did they? They had it hiding underneath the stoned blocks of the Pyramids. I assure you they've definitely been explored enough to make suspension of disbelief that there is a gun hidden under them impossible.

    If it'd been buried in the remote desert I'd have accepted that.

    Scalpel takes the parts from a Decepticon, they descend into the ocean and the scene shows him plunge it into Megatron's chest. Please explain to be why this couldn't be done to Prime?

    I'll accept it but I don't necessarily buy it LOL.

    Certainly possible that Jetfire did not know this, though I wish it were done better.

    Certainly true, we don't know how Energon detectors work. I never thought of the fallout shelter and that's plausible even though it's not explained. However when Cade buys him he's only stored in a barn, and I'd think there would be detectors in various places along his path to tow Prime back to the barn. It's shown in ROTF that these detectors work from fairly far away.

    Unknown. Perhaps in hiding.


    That's fine but again this is just a fan contrived explanation, not an in universe explanation. If it works this way for one Transformer then it should work the same for all others; if not then explain why?

    Yes they've been busy fighting, but they are a machine race, always looking for advantages in the war right; for millions of years? It takes a human to "unlock their genome" to find a huge transformation advantage? Ugh well I guess at least we agree on Transformium being terrible.

    Even though it may seem so, I certainly do not HATE these movies. Transformers is my favorite franchise, and as a fan I am happy that we are getting these movies at all. However now that MCU is a thing, I see what these movies COULD be if they tried to be more than just popcorn flicks. I'd love to have a somewhat coherent over-arching story similar to what Marvel has done.
     
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  13. Wraithier

    Wraithier Well-Known Member

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    Certainly I do, I went to one of them. But it's shown the movie not 10 minutes prior that these classes are certainly not huge - at least this one particular class - and she sits through his presentation. Agree to disagree, but I'm not buying it.
     
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  14. MnemonicSyntax

    MnemonicSyntax Rooks Gang Leader

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    I won't deny that things could be explained better. In fact, most things need to be explained better. But certain things like Sam or Barricade whereabouts... both are acceptable to me.

    Though, it would be better if they never came back at all. Barricade's reappearance in TLK is kind of frustrating.
     
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  15. Wraithier

    Wraithier Well-Known Member

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    Right I'm saying the same thing. I also hate that barricade is coming back and at this point I'd prefer they not address Sam as well since they didn't in AOE. I think they are going to try as best the can to tie things together in TLK and explain why TFs are continually coming to Earth so I remain cautiously optimistic.

    MCU is certainly not perfect either, but part of me is still wishing for a reboot so we can have the advantage of a somewhat pre-planned narrative direction - for at least 3 (preferably 6 or more) movies. MCU was really the first to do this long arcing somewhat connected narrative though so now that other studios see that it is lucrative it's not completely out of the realm of possibility.
     
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  16. RedDeadMegatron

    RedDeadMegatron Active Member

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    Alice could transform into a human because she scanned an animatronic from (I think) Disneyland. Since a human altmode isn't exactly fast, armored or armed, I understand the lack of Humanformers perfectly. Especially when you consider the robot needs to be roughly the size of a human.

    The Allspark killing and reviving Megatron is somewhat understandable, as drinking too much water - a substance that humans need -can kill a person, although I also feel that they should have used some other way to revive him, and that my analogy falls a bit flat.
     
  17. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    People act like starting over is the worst entertainment sin in the world but I think it can be a good thing. The Nolan Batman series wasn't hobbled by the Tim Burton films so not only did the new Nolan-verse have a place where the Joker was alive but it was a place to explore ideas and themes the Burton films didn't. As much as I enjoyed the Sam Raimi Spider Man films it's only by breaking away from the Raimi version and the Amazing Spider Man version that we could get the Spider Man that could show up in the Marvel/Disney universe as a superhero still wet behind the ears.

    There are a lot of old things near and dear to my heart like the Adam West Batman, but at some point you have to give creative teams freedom to explore instead of chaining them to past events. I just feel like the Transformers films have reached a point where there is just too much past to keep any new creative team from really being able to spread their creative wings.
     
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  18. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Not safe for nought to three sad onions

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    Except everybody who is against rebooting is against it solely because apparently they want to see the current storyline seen to conclusion.

    That is seemingly more important than any other positive aspect that would come from rebooting the franchise on the silver screen so it could start off new while simultaneously having learned the lessons from before.
     
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  19. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    Despite being a massive fan I want Bayformers to end by TF 6. I'm not sold on this whole cinematic universe concept. I don't like the idea of TF turning into a franchise that releases film after film with no intention of an ending anytime soon. TLK is seeming like a conclusion if not there's only so much further you can go. Optimus and Megatron can't go much further the story of the two species can't go much further. A franchise is about telling a story often one with a driving idea that story has to end eventually. SW had a story one of Anakin's fall and eventual redemption, there was an ending to it all. TFA destroyed that ending for the sake of continuing a story that was over.

    I have liked TF story I honestly think it's one of the most unique ongoing narratives in an action franchise I also think it has gone further with that narrative than almost any science fiction franchise I can think of, but I want to see that story end. There are endless stories to tell but I don't need to see all of them, there's only so far a driving idea or character arc can go, I don't want to see either go beyond that point because we need a cinematic universe.

     
  20. GirlBot

    GirlBot Mini-Cassette

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    At this point in time, I think most of us would just accept a reboot as a natural order of things :D 

    On one hand something new would be interesting, but on the other hand would it be yet another origin story? Honestly, I can't picture any other live action movie series. What would it even look like? o_O 

    Any thoughts on a live action TV series, now that would be interesting :p 

    Maybe we will have a reboot after TF7. I don't think they would want to pass the opportunity of having Transformers in Hasbro Cinematic Universe. With the current run it would not be possible.
     

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