I can't provide evidence that no one tried, but I can provide one piece of information.

Scattered throughout various threads on Don Murphy's website are comments from Don stating that the money behind this movie did not want it to be G1 in any way.
They didn't want the look, the feel, the voices, they did not want it associated with G1 in any way at all.

Don stated how they had to fight for everything that is even remotely G1, and that those funding the movie got what they wanted a lot of the time.

So I can't say that they didn't even try, but I can say that those who approved and financed the movie took months just to give on Cullen's auditioning.
Does that sound like people who would let the Alt/G1 think happen even if it worked on a technical level?

I can also say that I'm a kitbasher, and I'm in the middle of converting several G1 and a couple of Alts, giving them much more articulation as toys.
So I can say that I know how articulate an Alt can be, and if they tried to improve on that at that full size and failed they're seriously lacking.

Points to the Mazda mold as just one of several examples that have seats and engine.

Also points out that a disguise can be fairly superficial.

I'll put money that the movie Transformers don't look 100% like real cars in car mode, 'cos, well, they're not.
As long as they look the part parked next to another car, that's a passable disguise.

 

Me personally, I hate 'cheating' in TFs. Always have always will. I hated mass shifting and shape changing as those throw any concept of what makes a TF a TF right out the window. Though 'essential' to G1, I *always* hated the fact that Megatron was a gun that could change size and that Soundwave would go from a 3" walkman to a 30' robot. I'm glad that that type of 'transformation' is getting phazed out of this universe animation wise and I'm glad we won't see anything near that in the live action film.

They can't pick *any* alt mode they want, just something that compliments their mass and original alt modes. For example, OP is originally a Cybertronian large land vehicle made for transporting as such he can never take a form that doesn't match his size or completely change his alt mode. Even in his entry pod form he is still very truck like, with four wheels and what looks to be a windshield, despite it's purpose of entering the atmosphere. The same could be said about BB, who is a small land transport vehicle, and never uses an alt mode besides those of small land transport vehicles. Though I'm sure how they choose their alt mode will be explained in either the prequal book or in the film itself.

Also, no other TF series *ever* made the robot out of the entirety of the Alt mode. Rather the robot was just littered with clumps, scraps and 'kibble' parts of what thei alt mode was supposed to be. The bot's were mainly made up of 'robot parts' which were nothing more then blocky limbs for the most part. This film, as it uses real cars which will be 100% authentic on film, uses the actual alt mode itself in the transformation. Not just for decorative looks but to make up the internal build of the robot. This is what causes the biggest asthetic difference, the non car parts of the robots we're used to are now made of *internal* car parts. Instead of the blocky limbs of old we get drive shaft thighs with car skin covering over parts of it.

They are real cars though...

 

Yes, but, and correct me if I'm wrong, there's no part on the truck Prime transforms into that resembles his battle mask.
And they have to see, so there'll be all kinds of circuitry that you just don't find in real versions of their cars, as well as joints between parts that would be seperate on cars that don't need them to form an arm or a leg.

The point being that somewhere along the line, the human car tech ends and the alien parts are introduced, leaving the question just how deep does the disguise need to go.

Another way in which I say they're not real cars is the missing solid parts.
People mention it's impractical for, say, a car hood to hang in front of the robot like giant breasts, but Bumblebee's lack of these things, the fact that they're broken up would mean that the bonnet is made of possibly dozens of small pieces.
Real cars don't have bonnets made out of multiple parts, so something is being fudged.

If the bonnet is in pieces in robot mode, but one solid part in alt mode then there's cheating going on.

All they've done is traded one set of cheating for another.

 

Good point. My guess is that they indeed used Alternators as a base for the designs (the first promo-reel we saw shows that, although Bumblebee and Soundwave were rather spindly), and somewhere along the road they said "You know, maybe we could use actual car parts instead of hiding the limbs and such?". They probably did that, thought it looked pretty cool, and then went to Hasbro with it. Hasbro saw that the special effects for the movie could be bigger then first imagined, and decided to give a thumbs up for it, which lead to the bots we see today.

It wouldn't surprise me if it went like that. I mean, if you look closely at Bumblebee, you see that he's in fact a more complicated Alternator. His arms and legs are probably in the same areas as with Grimlock, but now use the parts near the limbs to actually form them (the strange crowbar-esque parts on his arms are probably the sides of the front of the car), or split solid parts for more mobility (look at his chest, piece it together and you got your basic Alternator hood). No idea where the feet came from, though...

 

It kind of dawned on me when I first saw Jazz's design that these things are *not* that disimilar then 'classic' TF designs. The basic 'flip, fold, turn and slide' type of transformation is still there with these guys, the frame work is still based on that concept. But the details and smaller parts also break up and change causing the 'thousand point transformation' thing.

The way I see it, Jazz's feet are his rear wheels, his thighs and legs fold to make up the rear end of the car, as you can see the spoiler on his upper leg. His shoulders are the front wheels, as his chest is the grill of the car and his arms become either the hood or doors of the car. It's basically a ver similar transformation to his G1 incarnation. All the car skin breaks up into smaller plates forming 'skin' around the internal workings of the robot giving it a very 'blocky' classic-like design. But it's that same 'thousand part transformation' found in the external car part seperation that makes him look so different then classic TF designs.

In the end, these robots look like nothing I have ever seen before, including Transformers. But when we start to see them move and transform and watch their parts flip, fold and slide, it will instantly make us realize what it is we are watching. That being The Transformers. The 'Classic' TF designs have never been what made Transformers 'original' or truely ever different from other Transforming robots, their characters are what made them unique. It's why people will buy the same figure in six different colors repeatedly as it represents six different characters. It's why just giving the same exact robot a slightly different head will make it go from a simple repaint to an entirely new character the people have been wanting for years. As long as they can get the characters right the designs will work for people.

 

If I were Bay, I'd get ILM to put out a short film with the old style transformers in a scene. High-end models, high-end lighting - the whole shebang.

When the 'fans' see these fucking refrigerator boxes banging up and down the streets, looking like a bucket of Legos someone kicked over, maybe they'll smarten up.

Maybe when they see front ends of cars for chests that look like physical deformities and car trunks for feet that look like clown shoes, maybe they'll smarten up.

Maybe when they see this idealized vision they have in their minds laid naked on the screen for the aesthetic horror it really is, maybe they'll be so embarassed at their own stupidity that they'll shut up.

Then the rest of us can enjoy the nuggets they throw us and eagerly await the only live-action Transformers movie we've ever had a shot at in peace.

 

I'm going to agree with this.
That is the reason I neither like nor dislike them. On the one hand the asthetic is something I find repulsive and could never like, on the other I see enough of what I like that I cant dislike them.

But I cant agree with you on this:

The Beast Wars/Machine era is second only to G1 comic continuity in my opinion.
I think it's great, I think it stands well on its own or as part of the G1 universe.
I love many of the characters.

But I have maybe 3 Beast toys. I don't like them.


Individual characters are the main selling point, but the design style is a large part of the overall character of the line or continuity.

Or maybe the so-called horrors will look better than you think, and they'll be even worse.
Or you are too closed minded to even register the possibility?

And what is 'fans' supposed to mean?
Are we getting into all that they're not true fans crap again?
It was stupid when movie haters used it, it's stupid now.

 

Umm, that was rather uncalled for. People have the right to not like the new designs as they are radically different from any previous Transformer asthetic in many ways then we've ever had. Such a drastic change can easily have just as much as a negative effect on people as it does a positive one. There's no reason to insult people just because they disagree with something.

The 'classic' designs do look cool, but imo they just don't 'work' in a big budget, live action, general-audiance aimed film. And these new designs, while different, do hold many classic TF concepts within their designs, through my eyes at least. But I certainly wouldn't want these to be the only types of designs used in future revisions of the universe as the classic look still has it's place.

edit: This is towards Ahkileez, but LT posted before I could finish >_>

That may be what they were going for. And once we start seeing them in action they'll hopefully resemble the characters we all know and love.

This may have been the result of a bit of confusion caused by bad wording on my part. In the cartoon, all the Seekers looked exactly the same except for color and a few minor details. But there are people who love Thrust but dislike Ramjet. And it's not based on the design, as they are 90% identical, it's based on their character. I used buying repaints of figures as an example of people who willing buy the same toy over and over again because it represents a different character. People want toys of characters they like, even if they already have the figure in a different color. Like how people are willing to buy the Classics UM v SW set just to get SW when SS is the same exact mold.

 

I don't think it's likely that the traditional designs would be better with the more physically sound ones we're seeing now.

I *do* like the traditional designs. They're great in the cartoons and in the comics where you can bend lines to help them be more dynamic. They *wouldn't* work in a live action movie.

I didn't mean to suggest the fans/true fans crap at all. I just don't know fans of anything that all they can seem to do is bitch about the subject matter.

Don't care for the movie designs, fine. But the endless hatred and frothing vitriol is not the work of a fan. It's the work of a protectionist purist who wants the world to bend itself to their will.

 

Actually, if you read through my posts, I don't hate the movie designs.
I just don't buy the "old designs don't work or would look crap" argument.

In this thread we've had a movie fan declare that Alt style is unrealistic becaus eof limited field of vision, but then defend Blackout's limited field by saying he doesn't need it.
We've had people point out again and again that the Alt designs would require stretches of reality to pass of as real, yet not really register that the movie designs result in cars with normally solid panels broken into multiple parts, still stretching reality.

The movie designs are as flawed as other designs, and they both require some fudging.

Fair enough. My apologies.

Oh no, I got that, and I agree.
But by that same token there are some who like G1 Prime but don't like Classics Prime despite the fact they're the same character.
Not as big a factor, but design tech does make the Transformers for some.

 

I couldn't agree more. 'Nuff said. TAKE THAT, FLAMERZ!!!

 

Actually, the point I was trying to make is that the Alt / classic designs are intrinsically flawed to the point that the amount of reworking and adaptation required results in a design style that's half-way or more towards the movie designs. In order to have a mobile and workable robot that is capable of running, jumping, kicking, performing backflips etc (all things these guys have to do based off the leaked script), while still retaining a realistic alt-mode, means that all the kibble and chunks need to be broken up and re-arranged. Some of the more spikey bits are not a result of it.

R.E. The point about how it's unrealistic to have parts of a car split up into teeny tiny pieces:

1) Any TF design is going to have to do it, (as in, split up parts that don't have splitting line) - it's unavoidable.

2) The script mentions that the TFs are made up of little robot cells (...NANOBOTS!) which I supposed could mean that they could patch up the splits. A bit weak, yes?

 

That's bull (not doubting you, llamatron, just the script is BS). So.................lemme get this straight..... We can't metal deform, because that's "unrealistic" nor have traditional faces because it's not practical, or whatever nonsense that's been fed to the masses, and now its said that TF are made of nanocells?

Nanocells, as in nanotech, as in microscopic bits of machinery that can reassemble themselves to take on any shape imaginable and when "transforming" appear as liquid metal to the human eye?

And they're positively sure that they can't recreate something like this because.......????

James Cameron and co. certainly didn't have a tough time with T2 and that movie is something like 15 years old. T3 proved is could be adaped even further.

If they're using nanotech as the "mechanical makeup" of the TFs, than all this nonsense about the old designs not working just seems a bit weak to me. Because it can take the form of anything it wants to at the microscopic level, it doesn't matter whether something looks plausible to the naked eye otherwise the T-1000 and Terminatrix designs would be a bit hard to swallow.

Thus the changes for the design aesthetic were simply put in play to whatever the folks making this thing wanted.

 

Gahhhh! It is Groundhog Day all over again.

The Terminator/liquid metal arguement has been brought up before.* The reason they work is because they are very limited in expression. Heck, they don't emote with their face at all (it's all body language).



*In the very cool thread about 'realism' in Transformers, filled with geek science and sci-fi references. My favorite thread on this forum to date.

 

'self-healing' materials exist in the real world and are predicted to do precisely what they'd need to do here. The bulk of the resurfacing is done by the plates on the bots, and then the seams are smoothed out with the malleable material. That doesn't necessarily enable liquid metal faces - nor make it a good idea.

Somebody pointed out somewhere (may have been in this thread but I don't recall), that if they transformed the 'traditional' way, there would be the same problem, or there would be giant seams carving through places where there aren't natural seams on a car. Especially modern cars which utilize less seams.

It's hard to hide that giant split down the middle of the trunk and rear end where you form gigan-to-feet.

 

Except for when the Citroen designs have both done all of these things (especially the second one) while not splitting the kibble up nearly as much with no problems. Frankly less.

Phazer

 

Which I still don't think is accurate.
Like I said, I'm no 3D modeller, but I am a kithbasher. I work with Alts a fair bit. I've been frustrated by the limited mobility (due mostly to toy durability issues) and have devised some ways to make several Alts much more articulated, a better range of movement.
And it doesn't break their look up much at all.

If scaled up, the only thing I don't think they could do is cross their arms.

I'm not saying it should be done, just that it could be done.

Reagrding point 1, you're right. Any TF design has to do it.
However it is less of a stretch to believe that Alt Grimlock's hood lifts up in one piece (as it is one piece) than Bumblebee's, which seems to break into many pieces.

Of course, you can explain it using the nanobot tech, but that's just like saying g1 could work with alien metal, or nanobots actually.

And lets be honest.
Watching a bunch of nanobots "sewing" several pieces of small metal into one seamless hood will look a lot like morphing.
Which is something the movie people said they didn't want to do.

I don't know why people, on either side, think that humanoid faces would be liquid metal.

We have animatronic puppets. Highly detailed robotic skulls with flexible material over them like skin.

And thanks to films with Robin Williams, the Wayans brothers, Martin Lawrence, the movie going public already believes this stuff does more than it really can.
And lets not forget that Transformers are naturally occuring, and naturally occuring things develop ways to convey emotions in their faces, they develop skins and similar to protect their internal workings.
It helps them survive.

 

That's kind of my point, mate. Unless you make the faces rigid and robotic, basically like an old-style puppet with a knotch of wood for a mouth moving up and down as they speak, there has to be 'skin' and it has to be flexible.

Seeing as they're almost wholy metallic, it would have to be some kind of malleable metal (i.e. 'liquid metal face') to give the facial articulation you want.

Go watch I Robot again. Watch the robot star and when he talks. Turn the sound off. Keep watching and see how artificial lips slowly rip you out of the immersion.

It will be exactly the same way with liquid metal-face transformers.

 

First, as far as the faces go let me just say this. The movie faces we've seen for the most part are 100% asthetic changes and totally uneeded. And I'm saying this as a fan of the designs. The faces *should* stay as close to the original characters as possible as there is no mechanical reason *at all* they can't be humanoid and flexible. Either though a 'liquid metal' type of concept found in the Terminator series, or even full blown mechanical designs like the one used in the Iron Giant(which is really the last giant robot film I can remember hitting the big screen here). The Terminators didn't not show emotional expressions because they 'couldn't emote', but because they weren't supposed to. They were supposed to look like heartless, emotionless killing machines, which is why the T-800 who did have a 'real skin' didn't show emotions either. Another example would be Data from ST:TNG, though he had a fully flexible layer of 'realistic skin' most of the time he showed no emotion. Unless he tried to copy the emotions of others or during the episode where he was given synthetic emotions, his face was always emotionless.

As for the Citronen stuff, no they did not do what would be needed in this movie. Their limbs were tubes, thin and spindly. They were stick figures with car parts on their extremeties. They also clipped into and through themselves numerous times, depsite being so thin 'flexible'. Citronen desigsn work in *car commercials* but would be horrible in a big budget hollywood film.

As for the seams in panels comments. *ALL* Transformers and Transformers designs and concepts will have a seam *somewhere* on the alt mode. It's unavoidable, whether you're using G1, Alt, Masterpiece, Classics or Movie designs. How is BB's hood splitting in three parts any different from the massive seam running down Alt Grimlock's trunk and rear window? In any Transformers telling it just has to be assumed that all panels from the alt mode will connect seamlessly when in it's alt mode. It wouldn't be much of a disguise if you could see the transformation lines running all across the vehicle.

As for Blackout's range of vision. To me, it looks like his head is hunched forward and comes out infront of the shoulder mounts. As such he *can* look side to side and see past the things on his shoulders. Other then his 'spikey, alien, bug face' he is one of the best looking designs imo. But then again he's also one of the few who doesn't have a 'classic' look to be based on. I'm just very glad they didn't name him Soundwave like intended.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, these are the next step in what an Alternator *could* be. With the larger scale the panels have more room to split up and break apart to intergrate better into the bot mode without looking like a large chunk of car. The car hood chests are still there, but they're broken up for more flexibility or shortened back for better balance and visibility. They also focus more on the Car mode, making it *look* 100% like a car to the point that the only way to know it's not a car would be to start removing parts. There are no giant robot legs in the back seat and if you open up the hood you won't see a big smiling face looking up at you. Instead they use the internal workings of the car itself to build the limbs that were classicaly 100% alien robotic.

These are both very big changes in Transformers designs, and if done one by one they probably would have been much more welcomed changes. But both happening at once, and on such a high publicity project, it's completely understandable why many fans were put off.

 

Though it may hurt my anti-movieformer stance, I'll point out that the 2nd (and to my eyes, aesthetically inferior) Citroen robocar actually ends up reminding quite a bit of the movie designs. I didn't really like that one.

But I think that the dancing Citroen still stands as a good example. People can gripe about clipping and stuff all they want... but the truth is, hand the Citroen over to ILM, get them to handle the actual animation, and throw a wad of Hollywood cash at them, and they'll make it work just fine on the big screen.