Finally got around to reading all the posts in this thread, some really interesting ideas and points of view in here. Thanks to everyone for contributing!  

 

It's also worth pointing out that not every Autobot leader or Matrix-bearer is necessary a 'Prime'. Ultra Magnus, Galvatron (in the cartoon) and the Quintesson Ghyrik (in the comics) all held the Matrix without becoming 'Primified'.

For all we know, there could be hundreds of Autobot leaders in the line of succession in between genuine Primes. Maybe it's only down to pure luck that the Optimus / Rodimus transition was virtually immediate. I think the UK Marvel comics played with this idea a bit, where they claimed that Optimus Prime's immediate predecessor as Matrix-bearer was General Traachon, rather than Sentinel Prime.

Indeed, the picture of the orange Transformer in the UK story "Legacy of Unicron" was likely supposed to represent Traachon, rather that Sentinel. So it's likely we got an orange Sentinel Prime toy in Titans Return based on a misunderstanding of that one panel in the UK comic...

 

No, he is orange because Sentinel Prime in IDW Transformers has always been orange.

 

Yeah, but that's only because IDW Sentinel is erroneously based on that single frame from Legacy of Unicron. So the UK comic informed IDW which informed the toy.

 

I thought sentinel was based on one of the previous matrix bearers in five faces of darkness, an orangish/yellow one

 

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm starting to doubt myself here, so that's very much possible!), but AIUI the Sentinel Prime of the Sunbow cartoon is the predominantly blue guy (with orange trim admittedly) whose character model was referred to at the time as the "U-Haul Robot".

Have a look at the TF Wiki entry for Sentinel Prime (G1). The screen caps from the Sunbow cartoon on that page show the mainly-blue bot we saw on screen.

Then cast your eyes at the top of that same wiki page, to the frame from the "Legacy of Unicron" comic (at the very top right of the page). That's the orange robot who passes the Matrix to Prime in the U.K. Comics. (The orange robot was unnamed in the story itself.)

This is the same UK comic in which we previously learnt that...

* Prime was the first military leader of the Autobots. Prior to his accession, the Autobots were led by civilian beaurocrats ("And There Shall Come... A Leader")

* Traachon was a member of the old Autobot Council of Elders (along with Xaaron and Tomaandi). (Various sources, including "State Games")

* According to the Prime Datafile in the UK 1987 Annual, it was Traachon who surrendered "complete control" to Optimus Prime.

* In the letters page of UK#56, it's stated in no uncertain terms: Traachon was leader immediately before Optimus.

Then we saw this unnamed Orange bot in "Legacy of Unicron", so U.K. readers (including myself) just thought, okay, based on previous information, that must be Traachon.

It was only much later, when we got the list of Primes in US#65 "Dark Creation", that the Sentinel Prime name stared being bandied about, and (incorrectly, IMO) retrospectively applied to the orange robot in "Legacy of Unicron". (Presumably by US fans, at a time before scans of the UK annuals and letters pages became as ubiquitous as they are now.)

And it seems to have stuck...

 

I stand corrected

 

Prime in name only, awfully specific.

The comics and Japanese shows have had lengthy chains of autobot leadership succession. From Rodimus to Fortress Maximus to Ginrai to Star Saber and so on.

Optimus Primal actually contained the energies from the matrix in Beast Wars, unless you want to argue that Optimus Prime's spark chamber happens to look exactly like the matrix and is stored in the same exact place. Optimal Optimus may not have been a prime in name, but he did bear the matrix and he was a leader. He's a prime in my book.

Now everything is written around optimus being the last of the primes and fiction has done its best to dance around passing the mantle on.

 

even beyond that there is primal prime who is basically the living embodiment of the matrix, and post beast machines/undisclosed point in the universe storyline optimus primal is gifted a different matrix by primus, so yes technically optimus primal is a primus sanctioned prime.

 

Hey now. Primal Prime was a new Prime who came well after Rodimus -- he arose in "season 4" of Beast Wars (Primeval Dawn) and joined the Beast Machines era wreckers, and then merged with Apelinq (and Vector Sigma and/or Alpha Trion?) to become Sentinel Maximus... Who was originally supposed to be a Prime, IIRC. I refer to Sentinel Maximus as "Sigma Prime" in my headcanon.

Plus in the Japanese Beast Wars shows, there's the Great Convoy, leader of the Convoy Council. He could well be that era's Prime, although that's pure conjecture.

 

Traachon is one of those obscure forgotten characters from the early days of Transformers fiction who didn't stand the test of time. Given how loose the continuity was during the Marvel run, its best not to take those contradictory early stories (and letters page answers) at face value. Its pretty much accepted by almost everyone that Optimus Prime in the Marvel comics gained the Matrix directly from Sentinel Prime, the orange robot. But given how little we know of the Marvel Primes, that doesn't mean your info on Traachon is wrong, just that the order of events may not be immediately clear. Traachon was never stated to have been a Matrix holder whereas Sentinel Prime obviously was. Traachon could still have been Autobot leader before Optimus Prime - Optimus Prime could have had the Matrix given to him from Sentinel Prime during or before Traachon was leader. Remember that during The Flames of Boltax story, Optimus Prime was just a "Lieutenant Commander" despite also being a Prime which as we've come to know, is a title only given to Matrix holders.

 

I'm fairly certain that's not true. My reasons:

1. Back then, the Japanese version of Transformers didn't use the concept of "THE Prime".

2. Big Convoy was a loner, a one-man army, who resisted leading/mentoring a team. Also, his matrix was an Energon Matrix, one of many (Lio Convoy and BW gorilla Convoy had them too), not the singular Autobot Matrix of Leadership.

3. Lio Convoy was eventually elevated to the rank of Great Convoy, leader of the Convoy Council.

 

Then you should check out Headmasters, Masterforce, and Victory.

 

Actually no. They both bore ENERGON Matrices, which is not the same as THE Matrix. The fate/status/existence of the Autobot Matrix of Leadership in the Beast era and the JBW era is unclear.

Energon Matrix - Transformers Wiki

Lio Convoy and Big Convoy were both in action at the same time, and overseen by the Convoy Council -- there were many Convoys in the JBW era. It seems that Fire Convoy (from TF Car Robots) was also part of this same bunch, as he too had an Energon Matrix.

Convoy Council - Transformers Wiki

No, Convoy has always been the equivalent of "Optimus Prime". (The name, not the person.) So Lio Convoy could most accurately be transliterated as "Lion OptimusPrime", Big Convoy as "Big OptimusPrime," Fire Convoy as "Fire OptimusPrime", etc. Heck, Rodimus Convoy would technically be "Rodimus OptimusPrime." (Or rather, since Hot Rod's Japanese name was Hot Rodimus, Rodimus Convoy would really be "Rod OptimusPrime!")

Nnnnnnooo, not so much. There was a Great Convoy who was the leader of the Convoy Council, but even he might not have been a Prime. It's unclear.

Personally -- and mind you, this is just headcanon -- I refer to all the BW/JBW-era Convoys as "Optimus [something]". This is because we have two individual Optimi in BW already: Optimus Primal and Optimus Minor. That, plus Rattrap's offhand comment that "you Optimuses will make a speech at the drop of a hat" (I'm paraphrasing, and yes, I know I'm interpreting it in an unconventional way). Since we know Prime is a rank reserved exclusively for the bearer of the Autobot Matrix of Leadership, and since Optimus Prime's name seems to have become a rank in the time of JBW, it only makes sense to me that "Optimus" would be the analog. In my headcanon, this gives us:

The Optimus Order (the Convoy Council)
The Great Optimus (Great Convoy)
Optimus Leo (Lio Convoy)
Optimus Junior (Lio Junior)
Optimus Titan (Big Convoy)
Optimus Primal
Optimus Minor
Optimus Feral (bat Optimus Primal/Convobat)
Optimus Corax (Crow Convoy)
Optimus Fire (Fire Convoy and Galaxy Convoy)
Optimus Thunder (Armada/Micron Legend Convoy and Energon/Super Link Convoy)
Optimus Reverse (Reverse Convoy)
Etc etc etc.

However, if the Great Convoy is indeed the bearer of the one true Autobot Matrix of Leadership, I suppose that would mean that whoever is promoted to the rank of Great Convoy is "the Prime Optimus." Since Optimus Leo (Lio Convoy) was, according to Vector Prime, promoted to Great Convoy... That would make him Leo Prime.

 

From the TFwiki:

After emptying the Matrix to cure the Hate Plague, Optimus Prime sought to restore the lifeforce that had been lost by filling it with energy drawn from the lifeforce of Earthitself. To this end, the Matrix was secreted away in the lower levels of one of many Autobot energy-gathering facilities on Earth, where Prime hoped it would steadily recharge. Whether or not this odd-sounding plan would have worked is an area of some debate, but ultimately, a different set of circumstances soon came into play...

In the year 2011, a catastrophic side-effect of the Matrix's energy being released became apparent—without the Matrix to act as a controlling force, Vector Sigma began to destabilize, putting all of Cybertron in great danger. The Decepticons took this opportunity to invade the planet, hoping to take control of the unstable computer and by extension, the planet itself. During the battle that followed, Optimus Prime headed for Vector Sigma's chamber to try and bring the computer back under control, but without the Matrix—which remained hidden on Earth, its location known only to Prime himself—the only recourse would be to give up his own life. To stop Prime from making this sacrifice, Hot Rod led the Autobot Headmasters in a methodical search across Earth, checking every Autobot energy facility. After successfully locating the Matrix in the last possible hiding place and evading his pursuers, Hot Rod returned to Cybertron, arriving in Vector Sigma's chamber just as Optimus Prime was facing off against the Decepticons. The ghost of Alpha Trion, who had survived the emptying of the Matrix and who had led Prime safely to the computer chamber, merged with the Matrix, restoring its lost lifeforce and giving it the power to once again transform Hot Rod into Rodimus Prime. The two Primes dispatched the Decepticons, but before Rodimus could use the Matrix to stabilize Vector Sigma, Optimus Prime sacrificed himself by merging with the computer to bring it back under control.

Some time later, when Cybertron was subsequently devastated thanks to the machinations of Decepticon Headmaster leader Scorponok, Rodimus Prime voyaged into space to search for a new homeworld for the Transformers, taking the Matrix with him. On his many travels through space, the Matrix gave Rodimus Prime courage to face every challenge that presented itself. In addition to the teachings of the ancient Autobots, the energy of Earth's lifeforce that now dwelled within the Matrix as well truly opened Rodimus's eyes to the beauty of Earth and humanity. Believing that Transformers should aspire to be more like human beings, he returned to Earth and announced his desire for humans and Transformers to live and work together to move forward and evolve.

Presumably, Rodimus Prime must have returned the Matrix to Optimus Prime when he was restored to life as Star Convoy, since Prime had the talisman back in his chest when he adopted his "Hero" body at the beginning of the renewed war against Megatron some number of years after 2025.

 

I like this idea. A LOT. The suggestion that the rank/position of Magnus is "designated Matrix keeper/protector, but not user" makes a lot of sense!

 

Transformers without Spike as the Headmatser to Fortress Maximus just ain't right! What was Mickey Bay thinking in those live action movies, letting Spike be a normal non combining, non crumpled spine human. A real lost opportunity after the homo-erotism of Bay's other cinematic masterpieces.

Im my "make it up as I do TF fiction", Magnus is the modern version of the Diaclone armor (red black blue), or another type of military unit / uniform.
We only see one Magnus in G1, but he's a soldier and soldiers wear uniforms, you could even extend that to the colors of Prime and Magnus, who both feature red and blue prominently, like it's their autobot old school military themed colors.
Decepticons have black / purple / aqua etc.

 

"CONVOY COUNCIL"

Now that is a fan film I would watch



Starring Big Convoy, Powered Convoy and Super Convoy!

 

why bother making that argument.....when thats exactly what the shows creators told us.

 

My personal canon has Ron Witwicky the brother of Sparkplug Witwicky in the Marvel comics continuity. Sam Witwicky is the baby cousin to Spike, Buster and Butch Witwicky; being born in 1990 or 1991. Butch Witwicky would only be mentioned as being with Spike and Buster's mother, but no details would be disclosed as to where that actually is. Are they dead? Are they living somewhere away from Sparkplug, Buster and Spike?