/Wonders what the big deal is with Claremont. Seriously, all his stories consist of recycled idea's from his previous arcs and there is hardly any originality. If people aren't happy he got dropped off I suggest they read all their Claremont back issues since they'll be pretty much reading the same things rehashed. Claremont = The most overrated writer thanks to his 80's run in X-Men which actually WAS good, but today he's just burnt up. Marvel actually seems to be on the comeback though after shooting itself in the head repeatedly with Disassembled, House Of M and other disasters. Decimation looks good, Marvel Zombies came out of nowhere and rocks, The whole Civil War/Annihilation thing looks interesting and we've got the return of Apocalypse in a whole different light. And with Ed Brubaker, Fabian Nicieza, Jeph Joeb, Dan Slott, Joss Whedon and Brian Bendis there actually seems to be hope around the corner after what was IMO one of their worst periods ever.
kurupted, please did you have to do that? i know people dont like claremont, thats fine. i know people have mentioned it in this very thread dispite that not being in the spirit of the thread this thread is not supposed to be bash the creators so far i dont think anyone has been as antagonistic as that first paragraph of yours... its suposed to be a discussion of the logic behind the removal, not opinions on the writers... we really didnt need that. i could be rude about it, and act like a rabid fanboy, but i wont i just wanted a civil discussion without flamebait
I'm just giving my sincere opinion about Claremont. His only true great work since his 80's run which was filled with his classic storylines was X-Men: The End, which is truly a great book. Claremont's writing is very hit-and-miss and lately it seemed to be nothing but misses, except to his die-hard fans. To me it personally seems Claremont has lost his touch and after so many years of Claremont virtually controlling the direction of X-Men a change is needed, a fresh direction which I'm confidant Brubaker can do since he made me genuinely interested in Captain America, a book that I haven't picked up in years (except to move out of the way of other titles it might've covered). And IMO my post is far from flamebaiting. Like you I am merely stating my opinion about Chris Claremont, which happens to be the opposite to yours, in my case I see Claremont as a writer that's fallen off hard while you still see him as the best suited to X-Men. I don't know how you see it, but I am not trying to start a flame war, just giving my 2 cents.
kurupted this is the very first post in the thread its not really a discusion about claremonts writing skills i specificly ask that we dont argue about the skills of the writers... your first post basicly questions his skills, states he's overated, burnt out, and tell those who dont like whats just happened to read his backstories instead of talking about it its flambait for those who like claremont some have posted they dont like claremont but like i said before thats not what the thread is suposed to be about... and most of the posters have posted why they think he was removed in a civilised manner
I don't like Claremont's writing and those are the reasons I feel it doesn't appeal to me. If you don't like it too bad, but don't go off saying I'm trying to start a flamewar just because you don't agree. People start threads, poeple respond, the treadstarter own't be happy with all the replies. That's how forums work. No need to get touchy by calling me a flamer. Don't tell me you havn't said anything about creators that don't appeal to you. Now if I started with personal insults out of nowhere or something along those lines THEN I'd be a flamer, but I haven't. I'm stating my opinions on the subject of this thread (Claremont) and YOU'RE the one who responded in an uncivilised way by nitpicking my post and reply for the slightest thing and twisting my words around while neglecting everything else. No matter what I say you're still going to think of me as some sort of 'Claremont Basher'. Claremont IS overrated and burnt out because of a spectacular run in the 80's. Today people still think that he's on that level but in my opinion those days are long gone, save for X-Men: The End. So stop trying to avoid my points by making me out to be a flamer by twisting my words. Forums are filled with replies like that on how people view titles, series, movies, CD's....whatever. Look at what TF fans opinions of Armada and Energon are for example. So how about YOU try to be a bit more civil and openminded in your next reply thanks.
kurupted i think you dont get it. but thats alright i'm not going to continue with this line of discussion.
Uncanny used to be a top 3 book, its fallen quite a ways and a major xmen movie is coming out this summer. I think a lot of people just pick up the book because they have for years, not because they necessarily enjoy it (at least thats the case with me).
deathsheadx, you have been around long enough to know that just because you say something in a thread doesn't mean that it'll happen. Blatantly, here it is. It's the internet, it happens. You don't like it, tough. And no, it's not because I don't care for Cleremont. I like Austen's writing. Always have. Others don't. But it doesn't get to me quite like it does you with Cleremont. Calm down. And your whole point of this thread is to ask why Cleremont is leaving a title. Well the opinions of those reading it might have something to do with it, whether you like to think so or not. But here's a cold hard fact. The sales numbers for December 2005 were putting Uncanny at the #9 spot with 81,292 copies. However while Austen was writing it, the December 2003 sales for Uncanny were as follows. There were 3 issues. Issue 434 was the last part to the widely hated Draco story. It was in the 13th spot with 90,318. The next issue was 14th and was pt 1 of the Trial Juggy with 89,767. 15th spot was also Uncanny with pt 2 of the Trial and had 89,105. So thought it gained spots it the sales charts, it actually lost sales.
deathsheadx, why is Marvel replacing Claremont with Bru? It could be one of three reasons... 1. Claremont wanted to leave the book. Simple as that. 2. Claremont signed an exclusivity contract with DC which required him to stop working on any Marvel assignments. 3. Marvel thought Bru has a better direction for Uncanny X-Men then Claremont. Okay, now hold on, before you tell me "this thread is not about bashing Claremont," listen to what I have to say. Marvel may simply think that Bru can deliver a better direction for Uncanny then Claremont. Marvel wants people to start talking about Uncanny again and to raise the Uncanny's sales figures. Now, your argument is "Uncanny sells very well as it is, why fix it if its not broken." BUT, something you need to consider is Uncanny will always sell well because people buy it out of habit. If Marvel gets a more popular writer on Uncanny, they can sell MORE copies of Uncanny. Instead of 80K copies a month, why not make 100K or 120K. Now, your argument is "why get a popular writer to write Uncanny X-Men when Claremont is fine and he'll be there for a long time." WELL, you don't know how long Bru is gonna be on the book-- so you can't say its just a short term solution. Also, maybe Claremont is doing more damage then good by writing Uncanny. Maybe Uncanny is slowly going down. Something you should know: Claremont's X-Men books have usually sold less then other writer's X-Men books. When Claremont was writing X-Treme X-Men, Morrison's New X-Men was selling a lot more copies. Likewise, Astonishing X-Men is kicking Uncanny X-Men's butt in regards to sales. The point I'm trying to make is that Marvel simply wants to give Bru a shot at making Uncanny exciting again. Right now, no one is talking about Uncanny X-Men and the sales figures reflect that. What Marvel books are people talking about? Captain America, Young Avengers, New Avengers, Daredevil... I'm glad Bru is taking over Uncanny. I like Cap and I just haven't found Claremont's writing appealing. He had his golden years, give someone else a shot-- especially someone that's proven he can write good material. So, why did Marvel do this? Uh, maybe because they think Bru is a better writer then Claremont. Bru certainly has gotten a lot of acclaim for his writing during the last few years.
i think i know why he got booted....X3 is coming out and they need someone who will make a story involving the new MOVIE uniforms and looks...like X-Men and X-2...lame but i wish the best of wishes to Claremont where ever he goes, and to that dude who's taking over him
Deathsheadx, you asked why Claremont was being pulled from the book. We gave our opinions on the matter, which included that some of us, myself included, dont really think Claremont is as good as he was back in the day. You then tell us that we cant post that. Ok then. ::shurg:: Why is Marvel pulling him from the X-Men? Because they want to. Period. They arent going to tell us the reason why, so in the end, what does it matter. Are you still going to read X-Men? I would bet you will. I on the other hand still wont pick it up. Thats just the way of things.
ArmadaJetfire, Wreckgar, you both seem to think that i don't understand where you're coming from... i do... infact wreckgar gave a very articulated answer to why he thinks claremont was booted... while he believes that it has partly to do with fans prefference siting himself he also expands on this explaining what he believes is the reasoning ramberk also did the same. he gave a reasoning he explained why he thinks marvel booted claremont... i can accept that maybe it is due to people thinking claremont is not what marvel needs right now... what i dont like is when all i get is a post claiming a writer is crap... and they're glad he's gone that doesnt answer the question that i asked... when wreckgar did it i comented on it because i wanted to steer this thread away from potential 'no you're opininion is wrong! mines is right' type posts then in kurupted's first post... as if he didnt even bother to reed the thread he lays into claremont. he didnt ad to the thread... and if i or someones had responded in kind to such a post there would mostlikely be a flamewar which would just get me in trouble... i've already been in a huge argument with wreckgar over claremont we know where we stand on the writer so he knows how heated i can get on the subject. thats why the first line basicly not to discuss any writer's skills. opinions of skills vary and i honestly dont believe they have anything to do with claremont being booted. my initial response was it makes no sense thats why i posted the thread. and to be honest it is top ten and is one of the highest ranked Ongoing books in the chart. if tomorrow marvel removed bendis from new avengers, a comic i admit i freely hate, and replaced him with millar or kirkman. i would ask exactly the same question as i did over the uncanny change over from a fanboy point of view its easy to atribute the change over to personal dislike i.e i dont like claremont, he's overated, glad he's gone. but that doesnt explain it from an editorial.business standpoint... which is what i was after. personally i think it is a two-fold thing brubaker is one of marvels 'writting young guns' they are looking for the best way to build his profile and what better way than on a core x-title secondly...DC up'd their A game and that sent marvel reeling. if you removed dc's hot miniseries and spinoffs from the chart the uncanny xmen and xmen would be very high in the top ten dispite lower sales than before also the chart would be marvel dominated... marvel are looking for a way to generate new buzz, to push its titles back up the chart... seriously do you think i'm wrong to want to steer clear of the potential flamewar that can be started over one persons opinion of the writer compared to another? 'i didnt come in saying claremont is the best writer ever why replace him with a lame writer!' not only because i like brubaker but i find that its unnecessary
Honestly, I didnt get the "flamewar" vibe from kurupted's post. I think he expressed his feelings on the matter in a postive constructive way. Flamebait to me is, "OMG Claremont is the suxzor! He must write stories with fecces, cuz they always stink." But saying "...that while a writer had a good run at one time, I think its time to move on.", while not in agreement with you, is still a constructive post. Why? Because you can look at it and go "Ok cool, I know where you stand and perhaps Marvel agrees with you, but its still boggles my mind why they would remove him from the book." For the first time in years, DC topped Marvel in Market share and Graphic Novels sales, and in addition has been tied in the top ten with five apiece. Marvel use to be able to drive to the basket for an easy lay up every month. Guess what? DC has Shaq in the middle now. Not so easy anymore. Marvel needs to make some changes and this, in thier minds, is one of those changes. Do you agree with it. Nope. But they got you talking about it. Now maybe someone will read thru this thread, and think, "Hmmmm never read X-Men before, maybe I'll start picking it up to see what the deal is." Look, I understand the passion you must feel for Claremont, I do. I think Wreck and I are the TWO biggest Iron Man fans here. (BEST. HERO. EVER.) And damn, myself and Spider Striker have the complete run of Spider Girl. (LONG LIVE MAYDAY!!!) I use to love his X-Men stories, but to me, in my mind, he seems to be retreading his glory day stories, and right now Marvel doesnt need that. Do I think Claremont has some gas left in the tank? Yeah. The man aint done yet, but maybe a break will help him. Claremont and Marvel are like people in a bad relationship. They get mad leave one another, but make up and jump back in bed together. He'll be back. Trust me. Oh and one more thing. This is the Comics forum. We dont troll here, unlike the GD. I kid, I kid! You want to see trolling, you should been here when the News and Politics forum was open. ::shudder:: I still carry scars from that era. God damn this was along winded post. You all get a cookie for sticking with thru the end.
I did not call Claremont crap, I just basically said that his glory days are long gone and that he regurgitates and borrows too many themes from his past issues. That sort of writing is cleary wearing thin on readers, except his die-hard fans who seem to believe he's still at his best. But c'mon, when was the last time Claremont's writing captured the same level of brilliance as he did in the Phoenix saga or Days Of The Future Past? All I've seen when he gains control of a title is cliched been-there-done-that stuff like the trademark no-powers sports events where someone shouts "Hey! We said no powers!" and undoing any creative changes done by previous writers to restore everything to his liking, has everyone aready forgotten his whole Xorneto mess? One of the worst and messiest retcons ever to just to restore Magneto to the land of the living and remake his personality to the troubled, evil-yet still somehow good deep down Magneto he always tried to put in his stories. I personally don't mind retcons, but this job was one of the dodgiest I've ever seen and I'm surprised editors didn't take it apart. And even though he's just been removed from UXM, I hope Claremont's influence from the X-Titles will be diminished to nothing, I want a fresh new, yet interesting direction which Brubaker has already proven he can do with lots of titles he's worked on and hopefully Quesada and his successors will make sure stuff sticks instead of being rewritten at Claremont's will because he liked that perspective and screw what everyone else thought. Think whatever you want about me "trying to start a flamewar" but I truly believe what I say and I highlighted some examples of why Claremont is better suited to leaving the title alone. I only made long posts to explain myself instead of leaving one sentence for people to respond, now a half-ass response like THAT is more likely to lead to a flamewar than a thought-out, explainatory post.
but you see i dont see this as being about claremont, really its not that i feel for him, i mean theres still new excaliber and x-men the end plus neXt coming out later... i got plenty of claremont to tide me over... its a case of whats marvels business strategy... if you ever pop over to comiXfan's xmen board read the last uncanny xmen tread... ( the one thats been locked) ignore the fanboy rantings and ravings of both side and look up duncans post on the subject about how he's lost faith with marvel... basicly he's tired of comitting to a status quo which changes every five minutes...nothing stays the same for long and half the time the new writers just revert things back to a prevous status quo. the way marvel's constantly switching stuff every two years is baffeling me and this latest change just adds to the confusion... i just want to understand where marvel's coming from... and also while for some kurupted's post may not be seen as flame worthy the tone of the response IMHO is... wreckgar was perfectly articulate in his dislike of claremont but kurupted's came off just that bit too... well agressive i think what especially gets my goat up is the line where he tells those who are upset to go read back issues... it would be like telling those who are upset that mark millar and hitch are leaving ultimates to stop complaining and go read back issues instead. the thing is... i dont think anybody in this thread was really complaining about claremont leaving, people were suprised and some were disapointed but most were positive and looking forward to brubaker thats why i thought the first post was unnecessary. EDIT: BTW... i was here when the news and politics forum was here that got reall nasty pretty fast if it wasnt about religion and bush it would be about drippy's latest post cheering the RIAA's actions against downloaded music... shudders
I didn't think I was coming off as agressive, just as blunt and to the point as can be. And honestly, you should've expected that all responses would not be on the same lines and would not be to your liking and not everyone is a Claremont fan. While you didn't like my views I never insulted you or anyone who likes Claremont or used any derogative terms. As for the back-issue crack, it was used metaphorically describling how much Claremont rehashes things, it was a joke saying that you could read all of those and it'ss be like reading the latest Claremont story. A joke. No need to bite my head off and use it as a basis for an attack on my view. And please try address some of my other points that I've brought up in my posts too, not only the ones that make me look like a 'Claremont Basher'. I went through lots of other stuff citing examples and their being ignored in favour of the former material.
Simple. "What will sell the most books this month." Remember the glory days of the die cut, holofoil, leticular, scratch and sniff, multiple covers for "A MIND blowing event" that was something like Miss Tiger making her first comic apperance. Marvel just got use to being able to do what they wanted and telling the fans, "Bend over and take it." And a lot of Marvel Zombies were like "Yes master." They still think they can do that. Christ, I lost faith in Marvel years ago. (Fuckin Jemis. I hope he gets hit by a bus. While on fire.) Its about sales with them, they dont care about that fans anymore. They let thier writters do what they want with any character. I bet you in 6 months, Spider Woman will be either having an affair with Spider Man, or Mary Jane. Cuz that sells books. Love him of hate him, Jim Shooter kept things under control. Book were never late. If you couldnt get it done, he'd get someone to finish it. If he thought what a writter was doing was bullsh*t, he called them on it and made them change it, or changed it himself. To me that was some of the best Marvel stuff. Quesada is all about the sound bite. "F*ck DC! They arent even on our radar." Thats right jerk off, because they are right up your ass! What ever Marvel's reason is for bouncing Claremont, its the right business decision in thier minds. But in the end, what are you going to do. :huh
like i said i find this part of your post a little too agressive... but people have been telling me i'm being oversensetive... oh, and there are no original stories quite honestly if you actually looked hard enough you could find where every new story has been done before... the omac's? rip off of prime sentinels/milennium stuff enemy of the state? discarded claremont story idea...
