Well, yeah, not by me, either, and not by a good number of other people too. But "hate" remained the widespread stance on BM until we saw what happened when you let the Japanese try to make Transformers cartoons. The very existence of this thread and the discussion going on in it is the proof that some people still assume this to be the default position on BM!

 

Out of all of the TRANSFORMERS shows (aside from G1), I totally agree here. Beast Machines had such a great environment of a dark and bleak Cybertron as well as the despair for certain characters (Tankor = Rhinox anyone?). Megatron controlled Cybertron, and the Maximals were constantly on the run.

Personally, I was just disappointed that Megatron didn't fully succeed.  




[Also, I really loved Jetsstorm, Thrust, and Tankor as well.  ]

 

oh sorry. I mean tthat for example, while I'm sure there are those that love or hate a "bad" transformers show, say like "Robots in Disguise" even those that hate such a show probably don't rail against it as loudly as those that dislike Beast Machines, I'm guessing as a result of it being the final G1 series

Seriously I didn't expect so many to jump to Beast machines defense, but the others who share my ire for the series have been more vocal in their displeasure

It's that vocal segment, wether they are a minority or majority, right or wrong that led to my phrasing of "who do we blame"

a year ago I made a thread called "sell me on beast wars" because other than one episode I saw a decade ago (the one that ended with Rhinox having nuclear gas) turned me off to the series, I was after all a "trukk not munkey" kind of guy
And even then I only posted that thread after seeing thread after thread posting comments about an episode called "Code of Hero", and mentions of huge nods to G1 (Ravage, the Ark, the Nemesis, Starscream)

But this isn't that kind of thread. I started this thread with three questions, and the background explaining why i was asking those questions. And so far I think only two or three individuals bothered to answer those questions (who I thank)

But instead many have stepped up to disagree with me, or even support my view with their own. And while I respect those who disagree with me (which were a lot more than I expected) or support my opinions with well worded arguments, it's not why I'm here

I've made my decision about Beast Machines. If some readers felt that they could change my opinion, that's great, but not likely to happen,as unlike Beast Wars I'm not looking to have my opinion changed

Those that convinced me to try Beast Wars gave me examples of episodes to watch like "Code of Hero" and "possession" which got me hooked on the rest of the series. With Beast Machines all I read ad nauseum is "great characterization/development, style and I have to watch the entire run, not just the first season" Which is unlikely to happen.
I remember cringing through two hours of Joel Shumachers Batman & Robin waiting for it to get better, thinking I love this franchise, hopefully something will change my opinion. And while I'm sure someone out there loves the artistic design of the movie, or think Arnold would have gotten an Oscar, I'm not going to spend time arguing the point with those individuals

and yes that means I decided never to watch a Joel Shumacher project agin, no I don't think Beast Machines is "Batman & Robin" level bad....."Batman Forever" bad maybe

Sorry to ramble I had a tooth pulled, it's 4:30 in the morning and this was one of the rare times I felt pain free enough to be able to put my recent thoughts down

 

I agree with a lot of that. I had no problem with the "look" of the series, though think the Tankor/Rhinox bit was "wrong"

but yeah was really really disapointed when they "killed" Jetstorm....and wow "Thrustinator" was actually cool

and yeah was kind of rooting for megatron myself

 

The only thing bad about Beast Machines in my eyes is that they elected not to bring Rhinox back for season 2. I would happily swapped Nightscream for Rhinox in a heartbeat.

It was very different from BW yes but as a stand alone series it's not half bad, especially from the point Obsidian and Strika got introduced. It was a series of concequences. Not to mention the very last episode is just one big fight between Optimal Megatron and Optimus Primal which was just awesome.

Don't like how cybertron looked at the end though, Cybertron was supposed to become balance but it looked too much the other way.

 

I believe the "change" he was talking about was the change we saw in the film itself.

The young reckless fighter with little to no respect for his elders to the confident warrior that started showing potential in leadership skills before opening the Matrix.

I'm pretty sure thats not true.

I've seen hate threads about the Bay films with headers like "Michel Bay Rapped my childhood"

Very similar ones when Animated debuted.

Seems to me that those that "hate" , which ever series,all do so with great passion.

 

Please don't misquote me. I never said his personality changed. His character did. People frequently -- and mistakenly -- use these words interchangeably, but in proper usage they are not the same.

Of course Rodimus still had Hot Rod's pre-Matrix personality, but the moment he embraced his destiny his character changed at the core. And although fans still complain about Rodimus' whining, it was a natural progression of his character. Imagine going from a hot-headed slacker to discovering in a moment that you have been destined for greatness, coupled with an immediate, massive burden of responsibility.

Your personality may not change in that moment, but your character -- the essence of who you are and what you do -- will.

Precisely. Thanks, Sto.

Didn't I already mention this?

You missed my point, which in hindsight I see I cluttered with wordiness and a malformed attempt at humor.

My point was is if you're going to say the writers sucked on Beast Machines, you should be able to say the same thing to them in person. (Bear in mind that you have admitted what you said was insulting.) Give your reasoning for why you believe they sucked and allow them an opportunity for rebuttal. (And yes, I would like to be there to see this in person.)

In some cases you might find that a writer just phoned in a script or recycled a previous one just to fulfill a contractual obligation and for a paycheck. When you're as prolific as those writers are that's going to happen occasionally (just ask guys like David Wise, Mark Evanier, or Paul Dini -- they've admitted the same on occasion). But I don't believe any of the Beast Machines writers were guilty of this.

And except for specifics like annoying Emo Nightscream, the ending, Plantformer, the ending, some redundancies that seemed too much like episode filler, and the ending, overall I felt the writing on the series was solid and well-scripted.

But your line of reasoning, even though it's based on your opinion of BM, is still flawed. The writing doesn't suck for the entire series just because you believe the show sucked. I cited TFWiki earlier which credits the writing as "solid scripting." Granted, it's a human-edited database, but the TFWiki is also representative of TF fandom -- it's not just one fan's opinion.

There are examples of episodes of TF series from G1 to Prime where we could all agree the writing was weak or that it sucked. But the way it works is fans normally refer to specifics to back up their viewpoint.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I'm not seeing anything other than a few general examples why you believe the writing sucked as a whole. So where are the specifics? What about Marv Wolfman's writing made his episodes suck? Or Michael Reaves? Or Steve Melching? Go ahead, I'll wait.

 

humorous or not, not sure what the point of such a confrontation would be other for to try and hurt someone's feelings. Whether they "phoned it in" or put their heart and soul into it is irrelevant to me if i don't care for the finished product

as far as the final part, your assuming I'm taking a "glass is half full" mentality that I would consider it a good show if not for this, this, and that

I'm taking a glass is half empty approach, that the show has to "earn" it's value to me, that' it's starting with a zero value and needs to prove itself. As I started before, in 11 pages of opinion, no one has pointed to a single episode, or even a scene which someone can point to and say "THAT'S why I love beast machines"

Of course we could have started the series "half full"....given some inertia...some momentum. But of course for that to happen I would have to see somethign, anything worthwhile

But of course instead we get an evil Rhinox, and a Silverbolt who has only slightly more in common with his Beast Wars counterpart than his G1 namesake

 

I guess you could say his goal of becoming one with Cybertron was fulfilled.  

Oh man, here here. I will admit, one thing I didn't like was when Silverbolt came back, because it meant Jetstorm was gone.  

What was wrong with me saying that Weak Component was my favourite episode of anything TF ever?

 

and he became a giant chicken thing

 

An eagle samurai is what I called him. (I don't get the point of trying to insult him by calling him a chicken when he is already a bird)

Actually I quite liked Silverbolt's shift from Adam West Batman to Dark Knight, even though I didn't like him sometimes. (until he mellowed out a bit) I loved his robot mode's design and motif.

 

who ever is to blame I think we need to find their address... so I can send them a thank you letter with a target gift card.

it was a good show that went in new directions and IMO it worked of but many people don't agree but what we don't need is stupid crap like trying to blame people for something that has to be agreed upon by comity before being green lighted

 

There isn't a single episode of the series I didn't fully enjoy. No other TF series has earned that distinction. I can point to several specific episodes (Episode three when the Generals first appeared, the episodes that ended season 1, the episode that introduced Obsidian and Stryka, actually the last 6 or 7 episodes of Season 2 are a constant adrenaline rush of awesomeness that I have to watch straight through. They're just amazing and I can't stop). So I dunno how much more I need to point out. Beast Machines is why I love Beast Machines.

 

I was watching it with my daughter the other day and was thinking the same thing. It just doesn't come across as a kids show. It's dark tone sets it apart from just about any other "20 minute toy commercial" series I can think of.

 

I went in BM thinking it woud suck since everyone said it did, but I thought
it was the most intelligent, mature, darkest, and greatest Transformers series I ever saw, maybe even better than BW, and BW IS THE DEFINITIVE TF SERIES for me!  
BM Megatron is so...perfect;
Rattrap having to deal with a sudden shift of usefulness, having to accept that he's not the Bad@$$ he thought he was;
Tankor and the other Vehicon Generals struggling with their own past lives resurfacing;
The plot twists and turns;
The revelation of Cybertrons past and future;
All backed by BW, it's the greatest show I've ever seen.  

 

You're still missing the point. I asked you to provide specific examples of why you think the writing -- as a WHOLE -- sucked. And specific examples of specific writers' episodes that would cause you to make such a broad generalization of their work.

You continue to argue that these writers suck just because they wrote for the show, and yet you can't provide concrete examples.

But I guess if you can't oblige me here, in front of fans, then you couldn't explain it to any of BM's writers either, and give them a chance to defend their work.

No, I'm not asking you to consider that it's a good show. You've already said you hate it. It's pointless to try to argue with you otherwise.

I would like you to explain why you dismiss the writers for the entire series just because you didn't like the show. Other fans and media critics have acknowledged that the series was well-scripted, even in spite of their complaints about the show.

You say they all sucked. Period. I would like to know why and how this is possible, in your opinion.

Where's a *facepalm* smiley when you need it.

I have given multiple examples in this thread. And I don't need to refer to just one episode or a single scene because it was the show's storyline and character development (and voice acting too) that kept me interested. And visually it was good too.

That's why I continue to defend the series as being a quality production -- for me, there was plenty that was good about the show that outweighed the bad.

And even I didn't "love" Beast Machines, but I did enjoy it overall and found it to be very entertaining and a high-quality production. A lot of TF fans who hate it don't realize how rare and unique the series among kids' shows. IMO, it was too dark, too mature, and too philosophical to have been made for kids. As an animation fan and critic, I have to admire that. And if they cut the stuff fans don't like about it, it would have made a great miniseries or novel for adult TF fans.

Also, the problem with providing examples to you of why I believe BM is a quality series is that you already hate the show. What's the point?

I need to rewatch the series. For some reason, I was never as upset as other fans about Evil Rhinox. Maybe because Megatron wiped his memory and reformatted him as a Vehicon. Or maybe it was just an unclear plot twist referring to when he was reformatted as a Pred in Beast Wars. Or maybe I came up with my own reason to justify it, I can't remember.

So I'll give you that one. Still, he did revert to his former self in the end.

As for Silverbolt/Jetstorm -- again, I just didn't question the change because his mind was wiped and he was reformatted as a Vehicon. Also, I thought Jetstorm was annoying, so maybe it just didn't matter to me that he used to be Silverbolt. But I never cared for BW Silverbolt much either -- his over-the-top dramatics irritated me.

 

sigh fine, I'll re-watch each of the original thirteen episodes and pick each one apart one by one if you wish

I am NOT however going to do it all in one sitting

oh and you "gave" me the Rhinox point, so i can concede that for a 10+ year old show the CGI was pretty impressive

...but being "eye candy" does not make for a good show in itself...as Michael Bay proves

I also have to concede by default the quality of the voice acting, if I'm a Beast Wars booster. How can I fault the cast for what they have to work with?

 

Your welcome.

There are 26 episodes if I'm right.

 

If you feel you must just to be thorough, that would be appreciated but you don't have to go that far -- a few examples at least would be satisfactory. I'm merely curious to see your critique of the writing for individual episodes by specific writers.

I would agree with that as well. Even the Unicron Trilogy had decent animation (although they did a poor job trying to mesh the 2D and 3D elements), but there's not a whole lot that's redeemable about any of those three series. They gave us some great toys and a transforming Primus sequence, and that's about it.

Still, I think Beast Machines had more going for it than just quality visuals.

And I have no difficulty agreeing that the ending sucked. Even if I wasn't a Transformers fan, I would've hated it.

 

The worst part of Beast machines...*I did like it mainly...along with beast wars*

Optimus Primal and his visions...first it was all random with him not having a clue about what they meant...then in the 2nd 1/2 the battle of the sparks...he just seems to miraculously act like a prophet and seem to know the best for all transformers...

And the freeing of the sparks at the end...and that stupid reformatting...

It never did clearly show if cybertron got repopulated with restored transformers (sparks reentered their former bodies)

Or if the techno formatting of cybertron into the Jolly green ball of veggies meant that all cybertron's transformers got techno-organic "bodies" formed out of nothingness...

which the end sequence seemed to imply with the tons of little tranformers forms running in the background....

that is the two things that let me down the most...

that and the Crappy toys...like i mentioned earlier in this thread.