Which origin do you like best?

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by Sideswipe80, Jun 1, 2010.

?

Which do you like?

  1. Quints

    58 vote(s)
    32.2%
  2. Primus

    122 vote(s)
    67.8%
  1. AutoCon2076

    AutoCon2076 Brightest can in toolshed

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    Primus, a self-evolving super-computer, made the Transformers - but the Quintessons built the original Primus terminal. How's that work for everyone? :) 

    ~Z
     
  2. The Crooked Man

    The Crooked Man Well-Known Member

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    Maybe Primacron was a subcontractor of the Quintessons. Perhaps he was really the one that brought the super-advanced technology necessary to build the Transformers, Cybertron (Primus), and Unicron to the table, which would explain why the Quints were in such rough shape when they reappeared in Transformers: The Movie: they were just the idea and money men. Primacron made it all happen.
     
  3. $5HotRod

    $5HotRod Trailbreaker Fan

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    That would work for me. Primus built the workers (Autobots) and Vector Sigma built the warriors (Decepticons)?
     
  4. Rogzilla

    Rogzilla Well-Known Member

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    So what parts? Their old parts? Then he would have rebuilt them but he didn't say "rebuild". Did he upgrade their old bodies? Then that is upgrading or building up, not "building." Did he fix them? Then that's "repairing". I mean, what, was there a kit? Why did Megatron have to build them if they already existed?

    And, forgive me if I am mistaken, but I thought the Transformers didn't get Sparks until Beast Wars. My point is that there is a huge logic jump that you aren't filling in. You are trying to get it all to fit together when it simply doesn't.

    OK, so Occam's razor. It is far more likely that, when they were first integrated into the show, Megatron made them. It was then later retconned and they existed on Cybertron. *shrugs* It happens all the time. I mean, look at how many times it happens in comic books. Superman has about 20 different origins in the same continuity.

    And you keep saying "could". This mean's its a plot hole. The show never explained it. Obviously, if they did, we wouldn't be having this discussion, someone would have cited that episode and it would be over. So whatever explanation you can think up doesn't matter, because it is still bad writing.
     
  5. Kranix

    Kranix Banned

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    you are mistaken, we only saw and discussed them in beast wars, but they showed both primes and megatrons spark. now i may be wrong on this next comment, but in one of the episodes i think there was some verbage about vector sigma and all that and giving each transformer new life blah blah that could be "related" as a spark
     
  6. The Crooked Man

    The Crooked Man Well-Known Member

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    This thread was really interesting when people were posting their neato origin story ideas.
     
  7. Rodimal Magnus

    Rodimal Magnus A Touch of Destiny

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    Both. In my world the Cybertronians were created by Primus then later enslaved by the Quints and forgot their past.
     
  8. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Banned

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    He wouldnt need to say "rebuilt".....because "built" would still apply.

    True "re-built" would be a more accurate term to you but it wouldnt make "built" wrong.

    And keep in mind, it was said that Alpha Trion built Optimus.....but what he really did was "rebuilt" Orion Pax into Optimus Prime.

    It was also said that Megatron was "born"...which impliys a birth, and we know that wasnt the case in the G1 toon.

    Point is theres some room for play with how some of these words were used.

    As above..."built" would still apply.

    I build plastic models........from pre-fabed parts.

    I built my book shelf......from a peace by peace set up.

    I built my cars engine....from parts I bought.

    I built all these things....but I did not create any of them.

    Theres no evidence Megatron did any more then what I said I did above.

    If they needed new bodies then they woyuld have had to build them.

    I dont recall mentioning "Sparks"....but since you mentioned it, the idea for "sparks" grew out from a TF's lazor core and personalty components.So the concept for Sparks have been around since G1.

    So far you haven pointed out any gap in the logic.
     
  9. Abrogate

    Abrogate Nondescript Former Poster

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    very poorly
     
  10. Grimlock_13

    Grimlock_13 Currently facepalming at your post

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    Which has more holes than swiss cheese. Arguing this much about semantics shows you have way too much time on your hands.
     
  11. KA

    KA Well-Known Member

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    your logic does not compute!
     
  12. Rogzilla

    Rogzilla Well-Known Member

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    Yes he would because they are two different words! They are NOT interchangeable.

    Again, yes it would! They mean different things!

    Ok, to make my point, let's say that he built Optimus Prime from Orion Prax. But he did not "rebuild" Prime because the prefix "re" makes it mean that it is being returned to a previous state, which he did not do.

    We also have logic and a progression. Orion Prax->Optimus Prime. So ???->Constructicons? What parts did he use? Where did he come from? Cite your sources.

    Born - "brought for by or as if by birth" Source. Even in the definition, it is giving us a metaphorical meaning. You have not explained any sort of nonliteral use of "building". And just to be clear, metaphor does not mean you can slightly alter the definition.

    But you haven't explained how Megatron "building" the Constucticon's isn't the same as him "creating" them. You didn't make that point at all. You danced around the issue and completely avoided making anything that resembled an argument.

    No, it wouldn't. That isn't what it means.

    I draw. I didn't make the paper. I didn't make the graphite. I didn't make the model I'm drawing from and looking at for reference.

    I write. I didn't build the computer. I didn't program the word processor.

    I know people who make collages. They didn't take the photos. They didn't make the glue.

    Just because you didn't make the pieces doesn't mean that those things you make didn't come into being because you built them. You didn't design those things, but you did the work and created those particular things. They are yours. Unique to you. You made them. You created them.

    But (and this will address the logic issue below) it isn't addressed WHAT exactly he did. This brings us back to Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is most likely correct (see my previous post in this thread). And, until you give actual evidence that the "building" that Megatron did was somehow different from "creation" then you have not yet filled in the logic. What were the parts he used and where was this explained in the fiction?

    .

    Was it ever said they needed new bodies? When? Please cite your reference.

    Someone else mentioned Sparks and you agreed with the support. And thank you for pointing that out, but the laser core, according to this source isn't the same as a Spark. But OK, let's go with the personality components. So how did these get to Earth? When is it explained in the fiction?

    Again, I have pointed out SEVERAL gaps in logic. How did they get to Earth? Why did they need to be "built"? Did only the personality components/laser cores make it to Earth? Which episode was the explained in? Were there "Constructicon Kits" that Megatron used (assuming your earlier point about making things from kits doesn't count as creation)? When was this explained?

    EVERYTHING you have said to support your point has been guess work on your part. You are trying to justify a retcon and plot hole. It doesn't matter how much insist, if there isn't an explanation within the fiction, then it is a plot hole. And seriously, even Michael Bay movies don't have plot holes that big.

    But I'm done now. From you points (all of which I addressed, not ignoring anything you said) I can see there is no use arguing with you. You will use your own language and thus ignore any intelligent, reasoned response that cites its sources and uses clear language. Sorry man, but its just not worth my time anymore.
     
  13. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    Build and create are interchangable.

    Sto is confusing build for rebuild.

    Megatron did not re-build the Constructicons- he said he built

    Now, lets say that we want to continue this parsing b.s. and entertain the notion that the constructicons already existed before Heavy Metal War.

    Were they the Constructicons that we know today? No.

    So whether or not they existed before or were built from scratch, the Constructicons that merge into Devastator are STILL Megatron's creation.

    And in Heavy Metal War, Megatron stated that happened in the caves on Earth.

    Which contradicts Omega Supreme's story.

    Which contradicts Rodimus Prime's memories.

    The Constructicons and Devastator are STILL Megatron's creation.

    But that's if we choose parse words like a politician.

    But for the most part, I'm with Rogzilla. Meggy said he built them- not rebuilt them.
     
  14. E.Rabbot

    E.Rabbot Abundant Member

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    Megatron BUILT them FROM SCRATCH on earth. That was how the episode was written and intended to be taken. Anything is just super anal OCD fanboy bullshit.
     
  15. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    And now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion.

    And as such, I prefer to use both Primus AND the Quints.
     
  16. Rogzilla

    Rogzilla Well-Known Member

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    Summarized perfectly!
     
  17. KA

    KA Well-Known Member

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    kinda like tony stark. megatron built them in a cave...full of scraps!
     
  18. tikgnat

    tikgnat Baweepgranaweepninnybong.

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    'Well, I'm sorry, but I'm not Megatron...'

    Urgh. This thread has derailed.

    Having said that, I just view this as the TF chicken and the egg conundrum.

    Which came first? The Constructicons or Megatron? This is rhetorical by the way, I don't need an answer.

    But is obvious isn't it? Contructicons built/upgraded Megatron when he was on his way to power. When Megs couldn't find decent evil builders with good references (they are evil after all) he decided to 'turn' the Contructicons over to the dark side.

    Later he rebuilt them on Earth so they could have their Earth Alt modes... which they already had on Cybertron previously? Wait what? Urgh my head hurts.

    But the moral to this story is this. If you do a good job for someone, years later they may turn up to brainwash you and make you their bitch. And who said old 80's cartoons didn't have morals?
     
  19. KA

    KA Well-Known Member

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    :lolol 

    i actually have no problems with ppl who use varied sources to consolidate their personal canon. its one of the things i enjoy abt TF lore in comparison to say, star wars. that said, the extent of some ppl's conviction is fricking hilarious, but whatever floats yer boat, y'know?

    talking specifically about the constructicons, tho, i've never been big on terran based/created transformers (just like jetfire in the marvel comics). as far as the cartoon tho i do take the later the stories as the better part of the canon cuz by tend i think the writers had a better handle of the material so i favor those.
     
  20. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Banned

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    What the hell else am I going to do durring dialysis treatments that are over 10 hours long?

    Anyway, I dont deny the toon has continuity issues.