Customs: ...Where Credit is Due

Discussion in 'Creative General Discussion' started by Yaujta, Nov 24, 2011.

  1. Yaujta

    Yaujta De-Headmasterizator TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Posts:
    16,025
    News Credits:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    332
    Location:
    South Central PA
    Likes:
    +4,120
    After seeing some really nice (and some not so nice) conversions and customs in the Radicons section, a thought kept occurring to me that I thought I'd throw out here-

    How important is credit to those that were innovators for a certain mod/combo/design?

    Best example could be the Ptitstator. Ptitvite was the innovator and original designer for the recipe for Classics Devastator, and many have used his designs and made their own versions. Some give credit to the originator, but some don't.

    Is this fair?

    I know there's no copyright involved or even special cookies awarded to the original mod creators, but shouldn't it be a matter of professional courtesy to at least mention, even in passing, the inspiration for someone's work?

    Any thoughts from the community, or am I just thinking too personally?
     
  2. Treadshot A1

    Treadshot A1 Or just 'A1' for short...

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2009
    Posts:
    7,593
    Trophy Points:
    212
    Likes:
    +66
    We are all artists here. Our work is based highly off how much one can trust eah of us to our skills both in the practical and the theoretical. We can all learn to build a toy, given enough time, but learning to think about how to do a certain project is a much more difficult task.

    In giving credit to an artist who was the first to use the idea, it reflects that one can therefore trust you in your skill to think creatively. If you need to steal ideas, then how can a commissioner trust you to be creative enough to complete whatever project the commissioner wants? Giving credit can only help a customiser, I see no reason not to. This community is so tight-knit, we can tell who made an idea reality first. We aren't going to be fooled by someone claiming another's idea as their own, so what is there to be gained from not giving credit? I give credit whenever I use a technique I have learnt from someone else (excluding the generic ones which everyone knows), and I see no benefit in not doing so.
     
  3. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Posts:
    70,973
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    412
    Location:
    agile house
    Likes:
    +7,991
    Who's to say if Pit's Devs was well and truely the inspiration? Maybe others just happened apon the same formula, it is pretty straightforward. There's only so much you can do with a Devastator. Or if not maybe they never conciously took it as inspiration, maybe glanced at it once then later set off to make their own, not purposely building it to his base specifications. Or maybe saw someone else's Pit-based Devs, not realising that it was an inspired design.

    Thing is I believe credit should go to whoever deserves it, but with so many customisers and so many people focused on near-identicle goals it's hard not to see repetition, and by nature of repetition you lose sight of the original. So really, hw many of these repeating customs are actually inspired by previous work? Who's to say all those MP Swoops are based off one guy's design and they didn't just get the idea themselves? Swoop is an easy Dinobot to make with the most basic proportions and transformation of them all. It's logical he'd be people's first choice.

    People shouldn't just assume that lack-of-credit means stealing ideas. It's incredibly narrow-minded and ignorant. The internet is a big place, and we're all like-minded people. It's bound to happen wether you want it to or not. Not everyone who customises is a die-hard radicon who reads every thread and is up to date on all the advancements. Some who post here may not have read another thread at all. I wouldn't be surprised if just last week somebody discovered drybrushing all their own and thought they came up with it at first. Doesn't mean they're stealing ideas.
     
  4. Yaujta

    Yaujta De-Headmasterizator TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Posts:
    16,025
    News Credits:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    332
    Location:
    South Central PA
    Likes:
    +4,120
    I wouldn't say it's 'incredibly narrow minded and ignorant.' If anything, it may be just taking stuff too personally.

    If someone posts something here, saying they did it without outside inspiration or influences, and it's an exact copy of what was done before, I'd think the community as a whole may at least have the decency to point out that what was posted is similar to a known style or mod.

    Personally, I've done a few things that I've never seen before on this site, but I'm also not 'narrow minded or ignorant' enough to think it may never have been done elsewhere. Then again, no one stepped up to point out that it was, so I can assume what I did was truly original.
    If I started using House of Kolor paints and use alternator hands on customs I'd gladly give F_R credit, or if I started using LED's a lot I'd mention Big Hank as an inspiration.

    In the end, professional courtesy only goes so far, I guess.
     
  5. encline

    encline customizer of love TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2006
    Posts:
    5,620
    News Credits:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    261
    Likes:
    +19
    Credit for H.O.K goes to this guy right here....


    case in point, give credit where it is due. The people on the internet will be quick to correct you if you're wrong..lol...

    Sometime ideas overlap and there are only so many ways to approach something with out going to far out of the box.

    If someone inspires me, I mention it. If someone does an something I already had planned, I don't. That is just me. I feel the best thing is to compliment them in the thread about their work. It is ALWAYS best to give credit when it is due and to the best of your knowledge....
     
  6. megatronatlas

    megatronatlas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2009
    Posts:
    547
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Likes:
    +2
    I agree credit should be given when credit is due.

    For example spoonman's skyhammer megatron was my inspiration for my Sentinal prime using skyhammer. and Ptitvite, F_R, Encline, and Thyvipera and others was my inspiration for my combiner that i did a few months ago.

    So on that note of credit Thanks to all of those who inspired me to try it.
     
  7. Yaujta

    Yaujta De-Headmasterizator TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Posts:
    16,025
    News Credits:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    332
    Location:
    South Central PA
    Likes:
    +4,120
    Forgive my ignorance, but what is H.O.K.?
     
  8. encline

    encline customizer of love TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2006
    Posts:
    5,620
    News Credits:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    261
    Likes:
    +19
    Thanks man! I know I always get inspired when I check out customs...good and bad..just seeing people still rocking out with ideas is always a good thing.

    House of Kolor paints..
     
  9. MisterFanwank

    MisterFanwank Toy Industry Analyst

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    Posts:
    4,234
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    177
    Likes:
    +44
    My thought is that my own artistic freedom should never be limited by what came before. It should always be expanded by what came before. It's always best to be courteous to people who helped you and give them a shout out, even if they don't know they helped you. However, if someone for some reason doesn't do that, say, they forget or didn't even think about it, it's not a big deal.
     
  10. Superquad7

    Superquad7 We're only human. Super Mod

    Joined:
    May 19, 2003
    Posts:
    47,973
    News Credits:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    377
    Likes:
    +182
    Err on the side of giving credit. Some people really care about their ideas and some are a bit more lax on the usage of them, but if you err on the side of "giving props", you skirt the whole issue. Also, it's a great opportunity to praise others and exercise humility. Artists especially can use a GREAT dosage of that.

    "Ptitvite Devastator" being "straightforward"? Hardly. Certain components of it, perhaps, but not the gestalt of the custom :) )). From a copying standpoint, perhaps, but from an innovative standpoint? No. "Who's to say?" Well, Ptitvite would be in this case as well as those around when it was first made.

    Also, while there may be only so much you can do with "Devastator", there are many ways to get there. Before the massive replication of Ptitvite's custom, this "formula" wasn't so obvious. For some, this would be something very hard to see now, since this custom has been so popular and widespread.

    Right (emphasis = mine). Another thing to consider is the expansion of Radicons and the customizing community. Pre-2007, there were far less customs being made, and things were much easier to keep up with. At one point, we were only a few good handful of galleries away from having the customs that had been posted on either TFW2005 and Transtopia (as a former administrator of Transtopia, resourcing everything from Transtopia, as well as Radicons, was a personal goal of mine during the time the site was dissolved).

    However, being inspired by a copy of an original is still being inspired by an original, just indirectly. In that case, an artist who wishes to use good form can say something like, "I'm pretty sure that someone else did this before me, but I'm not sure who. At any rate, it's not my own idea, but it is my spin on it." Our community here is made up of a lot of honest guys, and if a great many persons point something like this out, it's well within the artist's good interest to be cool with that.

    There's certainly some truth here. However, it's also narrow-minded and ignorant not to try to do some research for any project. Being ignorant of an idea doesn't make one less guilty of theft, it just makes them unaware of it. Someone who isn't aware of the occurrence can simply say "I'm not sure if someone has done this or not, but this is my work here." An artist's attitude can really go a long way, especially being part of a customizing community.
     
  11. payton34

    payton34 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2007
    Posts:
    4,049
    News Credits:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    151
    Likes:
    +14
    I agree with everything that's been said previously in this thread. If nothing else, it's just a simple show of common courtesy, regardless if it's something that's been done many times before, or something unique in it's design. Imagine if someone were to make an MP Predaking featuring tons of detail and Zoid parts, very similar to Menchoy's, and the "new" creator never bothered to mention it as an inspiration for their work?

    Great works of art deserve to be recognized at any time, not just when it's initially completed. To intentionally ignore that is not only insulting to the originator, but it shows that you're really just trying to take all the credit for yourself (or just hype up a quick eBay sale). In other words, it is incredibly rude and isn't descriptive of what a true Radicon is all about.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2011
  12. tannim31

    tannim31 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011
    Posts:
    167
    Trophy Points:
    56
    Likes:
    +0
    Ebay:
    If I do a mod or project, I do exactly that (I.E. "Not sure it's been done before but...") And if I find it here I will give the credit (like the Sideswipe Arcee I did, I gave credit a few times to the person who inspired me on that project in that thread) My point is do the research, if you like what someone has done and want to do it yourself (either out of wanting to see if you can or to make one for yourself) PLEASE give credit to those who inspire you. I Humbly bow to the incredible artists on these forums, what they do is amazing!

    *Edit* If I have posted a project and have forgotten to give credit I deeply apologize.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2011
  13. big hank

    big hank Resident Slacker-Basher

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Posts:
    4,445
    News Credits:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Likes:
    +600
    Personally, I think citing credit or CYA with a blanket "Not sure if this has been done yet....." isn't at all necessary.

    If you are inspired to do something, do it. If you've done something and someone copies it, that should be its own reward. many folks are a tad too worried about a validation scrap from their peers.

    Many times someone does something and credits the person that inspired them, not necessarily the original artist. You can go on practically every page of Radicons and find this.

    It just gets way too political and impedes the creative process.

    If you think of something you want to do, do it. Do people truly expect an artist to defuse the creative process to research the possibility that it has been done prior to them thinking of it.

    I say work on improving ourselves as artists and not worry so much about political correctness.
     
  14. Treadshot A1

    Treadshot A1 Or just 'A1' for short...

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2009
    Posts:
    7,593
    Trophy Points:
    212
    Likes:
    +66
    While i agree with Big Hank that sometimes politics gets in the way, i think that credit is still necessary. This doesn't mean go searching for hours to find out if it's been done before, but anything you've come across that you remember, i think should be credited. Even if it's a piece of art form which you only used a concept, not even the art itself, if you remember it, then you should credit it.

    Obviously, there has to be a limit, because otherwise we'd all be crediting Hasbro for their use of 5mm pegs all day, so i think if you use an idea you got elsewhere, and for the most part it's remained unchanged, then credit it. If you built a Ptitvite-style combiner with Primus arms, but then the arms were modded to the point you wouldn't recognise them, and the same for the waist and whatnot, then i suppose i'd be alright with someone skipping the credit. Personally, i still would, but in that case i suppose that's where i'd draw the line for when things just get too political.
     
  15. big hank

    big hank Resident Slacker-Basher

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Posts:
    4,445
    News Credits:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Likes:
    +600
    I can agree. I was illustrating a counterpoint to the general consensus. Also where is that line in the sand? I was inspired by articulated G1 Dinobots but honestly there has never been version that has come close to being like mine is. So do I credit the desire of wanting a better Grimlock figure or do I credit JAF and F_R for making their version before me?

    Also in many cases a credit is wrongfully cited because the person doesn't know the original source.

    It all just becomes too distracting.

    If I can think of someone to credit when I'm doing the write up prior to posting a thread I'll include it. But I think it's superfluous and takes focus off of the subject matter, which is the piece being showcased.
     
  16. Satomiblood

    Satomiblood Prototype Black

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2007
    Posts:
    19,452
    Trophy Points:
    257
    Likes:
    +25
    If you're familiar with the original source, then go ahead.

    If not, it's not truly a big deal. That's kind of how I feel over the entire matter. Sometimes, I think it's just a case of someone overlooking the notion of mentioning their inspiration...or perhaps they were unaware of a similar predecessor. It happens. It's not always intentional.
     
  17. The Crow

    The Crow ARK BUILDER!!

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2010
    Posts:
    1,930
    News Credits:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    142
    Likes:
    +19
    Ebay:
    I personally think it is EXTREMELY important to give credit where credit is due! So many of my customs have been inspired by what I see other Radicons have done, and it is just a simple tip of the hat way to say THANKS!!
     
  18. QmTablit

    QmTablit Disguise: Check. Robot...

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2008
    Posts:
    9,427
    Trophy Points:
    176
    Likes:
    +3
    I don't think credit is necessary, per se. If you did a piece based on what someone else did or based on ideas someone laid out, then sure, it'd be a nice gesture to give credit. But that's it.

    Who's to say that someone started a project based on your custom? Sure, we all know Ptitvite's Devastator was the first, but most people's exposure to it came from frenzyrumble's. And there have been way too many times when I've thought I had a seemingly original idea for a custom, but come to find out after doing some digging that it had been done years before (going back before I even joined this board). Or even times when I've had ideas for customs and their engineering, and someone else posts exactly what I had in mind before I got to do it.

    Credit is a nice gesture, nothing more. It's something to be expressed if asked. It's not like any of us are missing out on royalties or anything, so I could care less how many people attach ball-joints on a custom Breakdown's windshield. It would be nice to get the mention, but I'm not going to be butthurt if I don't.
     
  19. kjyl

    kjyl I'm a shark.

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2010
    Posts:
    953
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Likes:
    +2
    There is also, and this is a niggiling point, the fact that though some one finished there custom first it does not mean that they are the only person to have that idea.

    For example dominomist has made a really excellent smallfoot from the Kup mold and has plans to make a Chromia from it as well.

    The thing is is I also had plans to do both customs* myself before I saw his, now that I have seen his it will no doubt influence** my custom but I do not think I am "copying" him because frankly I have been thinking about them for a year or so.

    There are only so many ways to get from point A to point B in some cases and I think that independent evolution of similar ideas should not be discounted. Though any help or out and out copying of an idea should be noted.


    * both are part of sets that I am working on. The G1 fembots and the G1 gobot set.

    ** Also he is sending me some of the head castings he used and that is awesome of him.
     
  20. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2008
    Posts:
    15,003
    News Credits:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    302
    Likes:
    +1,587
    I don't see every custom that exists under the sun. I once was gonna do a Grimlock- until F_R posted his before I started cutting material for mine.

    I thought my idea was original, but chalked it up as several people having the same idea. Then I found out that the Grimlock he posted was version 2.
     

Share This Page