What's "wrong" with the movie designs.

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Scraggin, Apr 25, 2007.

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  1. Scraggin

    Scraggin Banned

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    I thought I'd make a coherent topic as to why people have a problem with the new aesthetic. I don't think many people doubt that at least some of the designs look pretty cool, but whether it's suited for what most people want of a Transformers LAM is a different question.

    First off, I'll state I don't hate the movie designs, just others pushing the acceptance of them onto others. It does disappoint me that they kind of "cheat" by having them turn into more humanoid shapes instead of working out which vehicle parts to use where, and Megatron and Starscream's designs, as far as I'm concerned, don't fit the characters at all, nor is it appropriate to create new characters with the same name and role in a similiar storyline to the original(which rules of BW Megs ).

    Secondly, please keep any "pushing" out of this topic. A lot of people insist that the movie bots as they are is the only way they could work, and oh I'm an engineer/3D moddler/karate salesperson so I'd know. This is silly. We have already seen several aesthetics for live action TFs that work - even if these are the most realistic, realism isn't everything.

    Now, I'll begin. The main problem with the TF movie aesthetic is that the designs are far too "split up". There are no continuous surfaces.

    The reason they are doing this is the same reason why Sony always releases their flat shaded Polycount as the main stat of their main machine - more physical detail OBVIOUSLY looks more realistic. Except it doesn't always. Having more split up designs means that lighting, shaders, textures don't have to do as much work to look realistic.

    The way cognitive functions of our brain works is that we identify better with things we know. If we see a giant robot made out of large, identifiable car parts, it registers better in our head. If we see a giant robot made of out parts split up so many times they could easily be something alien, it looks "too" alien to us. TF were never meant to look that "alien", really. Star Wars does just fine with completely human aliens. Give the suspension of disbelief thing a rest, please - most people don't care. Realism should not come of the expense of possibly inferior designs that are more difficult to relate to as characters.

    This ONLY applies, however, if we can render a realistic car to begin with. If we can't, it's better to make things look more divided, more alien, like the current TFs pretty much, because our brains can't say "Hey, that doesn't react to the light like a real car!". Haven't things almost realistic but with one very notable flaw looks very unrealistic - our brains are ALMOST joining it to reality, and the gap is "too small" to fill - it's hard to explain. If you look at a lot of trailer for recent video games, some of them look freakish because the faces are almost real but don't fully react like real faces.

    ILM often tend to give a freakish or well, unrealistic vibe to things, and just make it work with reality instead of making it look realistic. That's kind of what they're doing here.

    It's possible ILM are doing this because they can't render a realistic car yet. If they COULD, something like a bulked up Citreon-bot would be fine.

    Transformers are styled lke Japanese robots, strong, bold proud, continous surfaces. Look at Macross, and especially Gundam. They look almost "pretty". That's 'sort of' how TFs should look.

    The thing I think is subconciously pissing a lot of people off is that the Hollywood designers are flipping off the Japanese designers. The TF designs do resemble some anime monsters, and maybe a little Eva, but for the most part are very western as far as robot designs go. They're overcomplicated and scary, kind of Terminator-ish. Transformers have almost always had a certain boldness to them, and continuous surfaces - yes, even Transtech. The thing about Megs is that while he's differed vastly, he, like Prime, has always been the epitome of this boldness, the proud, bold robot look. That's always been something consistent in his design, and apart from his face, possibly the only constant thing. His movie design can't pull off the arrogant general - that's why people think it doesn't suit him. It's monstrous. Megatron is not monstrous, and as seen in the G2 Comics, isn't necessarily even evil.

    Continuous surfaces are diffcult to render, of course - the lighting has to be just right. Nobody can judge for sure how the light should react on hundreds of different sliding panels.

    I don't see why the Japanese wouldn't be better at designing these. I can almost guarantee they'd have done a better job. They're far more used to it, and invented the Transforming robot too. Hollywood hasn't really done anything like this before. Yeah, Japanese giant robo movies tend to flop, but I'm talking about Japanese designs with a western production and budget for the most part. The designs are a huge part of this movie - it's a very visual movie and affects the toys we get, obviously.

    The movie designs could pretty much transform any way - the Transformations themselves will look quite impressive, but they're not "engineered" like TFs normally are, if you get what I mean. This is where I think the J designers would have done better.

    Also, the Transformations themselves seem to be more important to the designers than the designs, almost, they want overcomplicated freakish super impressive part shifting. Hey, it's Hollywood. But that means the robot modes have to be overcomplicated too, of course.

    I'm not so sure about the Transformations though - I really LOVED Obsidian and Strika's clunky, noisy Transformations. That's what I want to see. These are going to be "sliding panels" that will make as much in the way of pathetic little electrical noises as they will in the way of clunk.

    I don't think continous surfaces has to mean lack of articulation. Yeah, a lot of TF chests get the in the way. But why couldn't they have mostly Alternator like aesthetic and just have the super complicated Transforming around the edges where it's needed for added articulation? And why should they have human articulation to begin with - they're aliens remember! If they need extra articulation, they can probably extend their arms - a much more alien solution!

    It looks like the movie designs use some degree of Morphing too - look at how Barricade's hood changes. I'm not sure that Morphing would have been that noticeable for minor details. Obviously not G1 Cartoon Optimus Prime splurging of arms into body sort of thing, but to help with articulation, etc. ,it might have been okay. I notice how there are a lot of rounded off bits that look like they're reshaped as opposed to rearranged from vehicle parts - look at lot of the ankle areas. Kind of like a lot of Gundams has, one of the few things reminiscant of Japanese robos. The IDW art for Jazz had Gundam legs, luckily the movie model is a bit better.

    And hey - at least they got Jazz right and Prime to some degree, so why not everyone else? Would it have hurt to make Ironhide Red and Ratchet White? No! And they would have looked better like that too - Ironhide's details are difficult to make out when he's all so dark, and Ratchet's colour, while realistic, just isn't that pleasing to most.

    The sheer complexity of the Transformation means it's going to look quite a bit like morphing anyway - after all morphing is rearranging things on a very tiny level, and these transformations are bringing it a lot closer to that. The shapes are changing too much.

    And oh man, Starscream! A cool enough design for a brutish TF, he's not quite as split up as some designs. One thing I can't STAND is some fans saying that they love Starscream and that he's their Starscream and they hated the G1 character. Come on! Talk about having happiness on the back of someone else's misery. Why can't you just appreciate a new backstabbing jet with a new name and role instead?

    The design doesn't suit Starscream. Starscream is an arrogant, cocky, somewhat effeminate backstabber. BUT THIS IS WHAT MAKES HIM GREAT! This is why people like that character. If you don't, fine, but don't change what's dear to others.

    Starscream's also kind of creepy, but in an androgynous slightly kinky kind of way. One of this bios says that he keeps the crotches of enemies as trophies - how awesome is that! Who cares if that's too earth relevant, maybe other alien species TFs encounter have crotches too.

    Starscream is essentially a 'bishi'. Come on. If they made a live action movie of some anime and turned a popular bishi character into a gruff apeman there would be fangirls crying out everywhere! And sure enough the Starscream fangirls have been upset.

    Starscream does NOT need to be an ape man. I've seen a lot of BS justification for his design and how Masterscream would be 52 feet tall and THAT JUST WOULDN'T WORK. Yet Starscream as an Ape-man DOES? No.

    There are several ways to Transform Starscream. One that was suggested was something like Classics Jetfire - have some of the mass go on his back. Then he could have an awesome jetpack, explaining how he can fly in robot mode! It's perfect! Why didn't they do this? Doesn't Blackout already do this?

    Also, why couldn't they just have him get smaller? OH BOY MASS SHIFTING! But it doesn't have to be. Starscream only needs to get down to about 40 feet or so - Masterscream is at absolute most 52 feet. He doesn't need mass shifting - but mass contracting! They could have the contraction be noisy and a little "unstable", he could shake while Transforming. IT would add diversity to the Transformation.

    He simply expands in plane mode. No extra mass. This of course gives him good reason to Transform to robot mode, as he'd be more thickly armored, he's more dense! Less suited for air maneuvering, more for combat! It's perfect. Did the designers think of this? No. Yet there is STILL some degree of morphing in the designs anyway.

    Most people won't notice the size reduction that much - big plane turns into big robo. The size reduction could have been only about 1/3 which most people would not bat an eyelid at.

    Plus, they could even have used a smaller plane!

    Basically, the designs need to be more continuous like Japanese robos, and more clever in solving issues like Starscream's mass.
     
  2. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Dry built

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    Well, without reading your too-long post.

    Nothing is wrong with the movie designs. They're perfect for what they're supposed to be: alien robot Transformers.

    I wouldn't be to thrilled if these kind of designs permenently took over, but for the movie they do their job. And I love them, particularly Prime, Megs and Starscream.

    Remember, the are Prime, Megs and Starscream, but they'll never be THE Prime, Megs and Starscream. This is just another new continuity, with new Characters sporting old names.

    This isn't G1 guys. It never will be.
     
  3. Scraggin

    Scraggin Banned

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    That's really bloody annoying. I already dealth with those points in the post you refused to read yet somehow had the knowledge to reply to anyway. It's (literal) ignorance like this that really annoys me. I tore the "alien" point to pieces, and there's more to Transformers than just Transforming robots. This isn't League of the Transformables or BEST WARS.

    You're being a total yes man, and if you like the designs - what about the people that don't? Don't you even care? It's a bit of a fallacy to say that because we can't please everyone, we shouldn't try. I refuse to believe that they couldn't have come up with designs that at least please MOST fans. Nobody was asking for these designs before they came out. No predictive sketches matched this.

    I don't think they do the job for the movie at all. In fact, it's pretty certain they could be better. To find out why, read the post you're replying.
     
  4. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Dry built

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    Geez, sorry, but I can't read stuf like that sans my glasses or I'll get a migrane.

    But yeah, I should have, but I didn't. But my opinion remains the same as it always has.
     
  5. Scraggin

    Scraggin Banned

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    That's just arrogance. It's possible that a piece of information contradicts your opinion and renders part of it invalid. Otherwise you're getting into the realm of global warming deniers, creationists, etc. Of course you're entitled to like the designs(but apparently you're not entitled to dislike them going by some people) but as for them being suitable in general that's a different matter. You should be open to change your opinion - I hated a lot of changes at first, like Prime's long nose truck and I disliked his design, but I warmed up to it. I even like the Starscream toy, just not as Starscream.

    I don't see why you can't be at least as open minded as that. I hate that people who dislike the movie aesthetic are "forced" to be open minded.

    But ultimately I'm just saying save your opinion for posts you've actually read, man. It's only fair. It's very frustrating getting the feeling nobody's listening to you and instead trying to push away your right to point things out, and that's the feeling a lot of TF fans have, and posts like that can make it worse.
     
  6. Soundatron

    Soundatron A Blight Upon The Land

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    My complaint will kinda comes from reading the comics. I look at a TF and it will be a small captaion and really dark and for all I know I could be looking at an arm, a head maybe it's damn ass....assuming robots have them ???

    But I think they worried too much with the whole "explaining how it is technically possible for so and so to transform into what" yes we can't explain how Megs shrinks down into a human sized pistol in the comics. But remeber it's fiction, it doesnt have to make sense. I questioned when I was a kid but never cared really. If you try to be too technical or informative you lose your audience I know from experience with my g/f always being technical.
     
  7. Bryan

    Bryan ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    This is a brand new idea for a thread! No thread like this has ever been seen before in the wastelands of the Movie Forum!

    Also, tl;dr.

    And finally, I'm looking forward to seeing the sneak preview at Botcon. I'll decide whether or not the aesthetic works after seeing it in action.
     
  8. Poho

    Poho That's MISTER Poho to you

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    please close this thread.
     
  9. drsyn

    drsyn Classics Big member

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    Chill.

    You don't have to like the Movie designs, as for most of the part you have issues with most if not all, but telling him that he is a yes man is just as bad as forcing someone to like it.



    You have your point of view on what does and doesn't work, cool.


    good for you
     
  10. Poho

    Poho That's MISTER Poho to you

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    i respect your opinion, but not your attitude.
     
  11. Ravenxl7

    Ravenxl7 W.A.F.F.L.E.O.

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    I'm sorry, I honestly tried to read your entire post, but it's all fanboy/geewunner ranting in my opinion. Here's my view on it. What would a giant robot from outer space really look like? The truth is, we'll never really know. Also, if this was real life, and you saw a giant robot run by, are you going to be pre-occupied by trying to figure out what it transforms into? No, you're most likely going to be running in the opposite direction (that's what I would do). I personally like the designs as is. Especially Prime and Blackout.
     
  12. Draven

    Draven Banned

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    I have no respect for someone who joins a board, slags off posters and staff, then starts a thread in which he says he doesn't want opinions forced onto people, and promptly calls those who disagree with him "arrogant" or "yes-men".
    And on the subject of people being "forced to like" the designs, being forced tio dislike them (being told you have no taste; or that you're a Kool-Aid drinker, a plant, blind, stupid, not a true fan, or any number of other pathetic epithets that have been bandied about over the last year or more) is every bit as bad.
     
  13. Dark_Convoy

    Dark_Convoy Old Bastard Veteran

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    Here's the deal:

    Some people like them.

    Some people don't.

    Life goes on.
     
  14. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Dry built

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    I am ashamed at my own hipocracy and arrogance. I apologize.
     
  15. Poho

    Poho That's MISTER Poho to you

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    precisely, so someone PLEASE tell this fellow not to make posts like this anymore.
     
  16. Steevy Maximus

    Steevy Maximus Movie Megs eats your soul

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    Long story short...

    They didn't and never wanted to remake G1 frame per frame.
     
  17. DaraRex2.0

    DaraRex2.0 I'd totally eat the leaf

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    <~~~ If I may speak.

    I know people are always going to be angry because they want to see something different, or something they wanted to see from G1 didn't make it to the screen. Nothing's ever going to be perfect, just deal with it and cherish the original G1 :) 

    On another note, since this is another Transformer universe does this mean people can make up new fan characters or should we just enhance our old guys? :poke 
     
  18. Ravenxl7

    Ravenxl7 W.A.F.F.L.E.O.

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    Both actually. Enhancing old characters is great, but there might be a design idea or two that either wouldn't fit the basic character, or would make sense with being something completely new.
     
  19. soundwaveCA

    soundwaveCA Veteran

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    Ok guys calm down, this is the only warning I intend to give, chill, and kill the attitude.
     
  20. Kranix2k

    Kranix2k Spare me this mockery!! TFW2005 Supporter

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    Y'know, I thought maybe I'd been too harsh to judge from the last post you made....thought I'd actually try and give this a chance and possibly make a decent reply. Then I got to the COMPLETE SLAGGING DRIVEL about Starscream and nearly lost my dinner.

    I implore you to actually go out and find the lost portions of your brain that control logic and reason before you post like this again.
     
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