What makes you think a Live Action Reboot will feature more Transformers?

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Seth Sunthay, Sep 13, 2017 at 2:07 AM.

  1. John TheDestroyer

    John TheDestroyer I rise, you fall

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    Motion capture wouldn't look very good I think when dealing with robots that are huge compared to humans. And humans will always be a part of transformers.

    Reusing models like you say is already being done. Like Long Haul to Canopy and Onslaught.

    Simpler designs really wouldn't work well in a live action setting.

    I agree that shooting most of the movie in one area would cut a lot of costs.
     
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  2. Prime17

    Prime17 Seeker

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    By simple, we mean designs that don't have 10,000 pieces for just two cannons. Not G1 boxy designs, but something more akin to Transformers Prime just a little more complex.
     
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  3. LegionMaximus

    LegionMaximus Well-Known Member

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    They really need to simplify the robots' designs or, even better, simplify the designs and animate the movies. Because, yeah, with live action there's always going to be the temptation to bring humans front-and-center too much because the humans don't need to be CGI'ed in. With animation this problem wouldn't exist, plus the "special effects" would be much cheaper.
     
  4. Terradives

    Terradives Well-Known Member

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    They name the film transformers, not Sam witwicky or Cade whatever. They can keep making movies in the bayverse, and they will keep failing. If hasbro and paramount have not figured out that they completely lost their audience, well they deserve what happens. To answer the question succinctly give people what they are paying for and expecting to see. We don't want to see Sam witwicky kill megatron, or any other transformers. we want too see brawn call perceptor a lollipop. We want to see why sunstreaker is such a crazy mofo. We don't want to see army guys running around for half the movie.
     
  5. snokoan

    snokoan Well-Known Member

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    A reboot won't happen anytime I question the movie forum why have the g1 fanboys in the movie forum when they aren't friends I would like to give an opinion but I'll be accused of flame baiting and pissing off people
     
  6. Prime17

    Prime17 Seeker

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    Once again, not everyone who criticizes the movies is a "G1 fanboy." You've been accused of flame baiting because a lot of your posts add nothing constructive to the conversation.
     
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  7. Livingdeaddan

    Livingdeaddan Gotta get to sleep somehow...

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    Yeah, but mainly because of your inflammatory vocabulary choices and condescending tone.
     
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  8. TFXProtector

    TFXProtector Well-Known Member

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    1.) Motion capture has already been used. Cogman.
    2.) I know they're reusing models, intricate ones.
    3.) I used to think simpler designs wouldn't work, then I saw the trailer for Ready Player One and the Iron Giant in it and realized I was wrong.

    I don't know, a slightly updated G1 design would be alright. I don't know that it needs to be Transformers Prime level, either. I want the toys to be as CGI accurate as possible and I think simplifying the designs will accomplish that. Especially G1.

    The whole point of Bayverse was to make the films live action and it worked. The original animated movie was a box office BOMB, it lost money. With Dreamworks, Illumination, and Disney cornering the market I'm not sure there's much room for a Transformers animated flick. (I know they say they're making one.) Part of the allure was making them real, for once. We have animated versions of Transformers. And animating the next film doesn't guarantee humans will be left out. Spike and Sparkplug? The kids from the Unicron Trilogy? Sam, Michaela, Carly, his parents, the military? Jack, Miko, and Raf? And let's not forget RID (2015) and Rescue Bots. Humans will always find a way into the story and they're always going to have a pivotal part in the story to some degree. If I'm going to see the same old formula, I want to see it in live action.
     
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  9. John TheDestroyer

    John TheDestroyer I rise, you fall

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    Notice how I said "when dealing with robots that are huge compared to humans." I wasn't talking about Cogman.

    G1 has far more warping, morphing, and bending metal than the live action movies. Hard to make an accurate toy out of that. And the G1 designs look okay in an 80s cartoon, but similar designs would look ridiculous in live action.

    No people in this one since its a Cybertron based prequel. And its cgi animation. It will probably look nearly photo realistic like the movies. It just cant be called live action since it will be 100% cgi.
     
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  10. TFXProtector

    TFXProtector Well-Known Member

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    I did notice, my statement was made with the intention of disagreeing with you. Motion capture for large scale creatures with humans has been done before with success. There's no reason to assume it couldn't work here.



    There can be adjustments, no one said it has to be 100% perfect G1. It's a good starting point, though. Instead of making toys based on a design that's darn near impossible to replicate, perhaps they should design the toys first, then build the CGI models off of that. I think wheels and other vehicle kibble should be sticking out of a Transformer, somewhere. Michael Bay's decision to turn Prime into a knight with that impossible of a robot mode is part of the problem and not the solution.



    We'll see. We've been made promises before that didn't pan out as promised and this is coming from a Bayverse fan.
     
  11. normtrooper

    normtrooper Well-Known Member

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    I think the issue here is Michael Bay. Or more specifically Spielberg.

    If the franchise really had a director who cared about the essence and history of the franchise, things could be handled better, a lot better.

    Spielberg went after and got Bay because he was awesome at action. Bay like anyone likes money, and toys, he can use awesome technology and make movies that do cool things. That's it, he has said so many things that prove he thinks transformers are dumb, he likes his transformers.

    This is not Bay's fault at all, he did what he was paid to do, and people go see these movies. Bayformers cause a lot of the fan base to complain about doing what Bayformers do.. that's just the fact of it. I made my peace with it after rotf I haven't expected anything other than what we have gotten so far 5 movies in.

    I think Bay is a great director and is second to none with action, he just isn't passionate about what makes transformers transfomers.... I love Bayformers for what they are and the man is to be respected for what he has done, his job.


    The real question is, is there a director out there who can take over for this massive blockbuster franchise, that isn't just more of the same? Because I think they are just gonna get another proven action director over a director who loves transformers... are there any directors who love transformers?!?!
     
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  12. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Hammer of the Gunplas

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    Lorenzo probably won't be associated with a reboot, given the stories of how hard he is to work with.

    That right there would solve a boatload of issues with the presence of the robots.
     
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  13. normtrooper

    normtrooper Well-Known Member

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    I never saw the stories that say he is hard to work with. I would believe it. He is another one I feel doesn't "care"
     
  14. John TheDestroyer

    John TheDestroyer I rise, you fall

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    Do you have any examples? I honestly can't think of any.

    I feel like having the complex designs the movies have has pushed the toy and designers to expand their ideas. Many of the figures that have come out of the movie lines are incredibly clever and simply brilliant. Because they're trying their hardest to recreate what is seen on screen. If the toys were designed first, the designers wouldn't feel the same drive to make it as clever or complex as possible. Look at the toys of Rid15 and Animated compared to the toys of the movies and TF Prime. The simpler designs of Animated and Rid15 cause the toys to be so much simpler and more boring, in my opinion. TF Prime and movie toys, on the other hand, are far more complex because they're striving to emulate the more complex designs seen on screen. I think if they were to radically redesign all of the movieverse characters, the very simplest they should go is slightly above TF Prime level.

    Have you seen the prototype of that new Alien Attack knight Optimus? Looks almost perfect and kibbless in robot mode and transforms fully into a fairly good truck mode. So it is possible.

    No comment
     
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  15. TFXProtector

    TFXProtector Well-Known Member

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    Jackson's King Kong. King Kong was an Andy Serkis performance. Smaug was Benedict Cumberbatch, taught by Serkis. Those are just the ones I can think of. Oh, Mark Ruffalo as The Hulk.



    Animated was a fan favorite that tried a new style and was a gangbuster success with the audience. Those toys were quite nicely designed and less simplistic than you'd think.
    RID is intentionally aimed at a younger demographic and isn't their main go to line.
    Prime and the movies did force them to step their game up a bit, yes, but it's gotten to the point where they don't need media to be inspired. Combiner Wars, Titans Return and Power Of The Primes are proof of that.
    I'm not saying it's impossible for Hasbro to *do* it, but it's impossible at their current budget. 3rd parties don't have the same issues that Hasbro faces just to get a product to market. On top of that, how complex will it be? Will it even be worth having if it's just a Rubik's Cube you flip inside out with a bunch of panels that make you want to punch babies? (The punch babies thing is a joke and not at all serious. See here for more: Punching Babies)

    Hybrid Prime is proof that they can make a complex figure out of a simplistic design, so is MP-01 and MP-10. And let's not forget the gems that are MP-05, MP-09 and to some extent, MP-36.
     
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  16. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Hammer of the Gunplas

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    Lord of the Rings, Age of Ultron, pretty sure a Godzilla as well but I'm not sure on that one.

    "Complex" is not a word I would use to describe the piece of shit known as Deluxe Movie Lockdown. Honestly I think the movie designs took a step back in AoE into simplistic bullshit territory compared to some truly golden marvels from ROTF as well as those too-complex-for-their-own-good. After all, name any movie voyager more complex than ROTF MIXMASTER.

    I mean, how can you honestly say with a straight face that AoE Lockdown, simply by being a product of a later line, is even comparable to ROTF Lockdown who is far more faithtful to the original design and actually has a higher standard of articulation?

    Don't you dare insult Animated. Sure, the designs aren't as complex on the surface but if you pay closer attention that's because they worked in some serious character into those transformations, I.E. Bumblebee's deluxe backflips if you keep him oriented in the same way from car to robot. Furthermore, for such a stylized series, for the toys to maintain the highest screen-to-physical-toy ration ever seen is truly spectacular.

    Or, as another example of great toy engineering that the movies can never even hope to touch; Animated Shockwave. The true genius of this toy's transformation is not in the alt. modes since it's a tank or a tank on stilts with a bent back cannon (though the spring loaded gimmick is a nice touch), it's how much effort went into the two robot modes and how they're so different:
    [​IMG]

    There are more steps in turning the figure on the left into the figure on the right than there are in total for at least one of the more recent movie figures from robot to car and vice versa, I'm sure. Including Shockwave's signature 'waist slouch' hinge which these pictures don't make immediately obvious. Every single component of this toy must move, stretch, lock down, or invert between the robot modes to the point it's more common to see people picture their Shockwaves with at least one or two of the steps overlooked - I myself had to correct my own personal Shockwave as I'd left the shoulder hinges lowered in Longarm mode as opposed to the more raised Shockwave mode configuration, as well as the lower legs being rotated wrong.

    Or how about Animated Leader Megatron? That toy is deceptively simple in that all he does is basically fold up the arms and peg his legs together. But those shins, dear GOD those shins, the way they rotate 180 degrees to reconnect slightly higher does wonders in turning the silhouette of a robot into that of a futuristic dual-rotor attack helicopter, because it removes the majority of what looks like robot limbs and selling the alt. mode so much better.

    But no. Just because the toys have smooth panel sides and are still more recognizably more block-robot than the film models means they're simpler in comparison. Who gives a damn about the engineering in making such odd designs into near-100% perfect transformable toys being on equal if not greater footing?

    ROTF Long Haul, as great a toy as he is, is basically folding up everything below the waist into a cube under the front kibble and then positioning the arms in line with the truck bed kibble.

    The mistake you're making is assuming that just because the movie models are detailed means they're more complex...when in reality most of them probably aren't really any more complex than Unicron Trilogy era figures at the core (and if you disagree go transform Energon Mirage/Dreadwing and I DARE YOU to come back and say that shit was simple, I DARE YOU!). Mentally remove all the superficial sculpting and imagine the components as simple geometric shapes, at which point most transformations at the core are mostly the robots curling themselves up into small enough mounds such that spacious enough kibble can cover them. This is how Prime Knock-Out works as well as the basic idea behind many of the movie car-formers.

    And that's still better than goddamn AoE Galvatron who literally wore his entire alt. mode on his back to the point he probably would give Big Convoy, the king of kibble formers a run for his money in terms of being able to remove the kibble and make the alt. mode from the removed kibble alone.

    Oh, and slightly above Prime level? Not exactly a high bar considering what passes for a Prime deluxe, in case you forgot:
    [​IMG]

    You mean the non-Hasbro third party product that probably will cost a shitload of money? Sure, the design is conceivably possible with some clever cheating through panel use, but the key difference is that it's probably going to involve small pieces moving around that would never pass the toy safety laws Hasbro must follow when selling toys to kids. Alien Attack sells directly to collectors so that eliminates that problem altogether.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017 at 1:57 AM
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  17. Prime17

    Prime17 Seeker

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    Damn it, reading this just reminded me how I missed out on such a great era of toy engineering from the Animated and ROTF lines. Back when you can get a deluxe and voyage for just $10 and $20 respectively. If only I had disposable income and wasn't a kid back then.
     
  18. John TheDestroyer

    John TheDestroyer I rise, you fall

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    Fair points.

    I'm fairly certain that I never mentioned Aoe Lockdown at all...

    I'm not insulting Animated at all. Its my favorite incarnation of transformers, and I love the toyline. However, the majority of the figures from Animated are indeed simpler than the majority of the figures from the movies. And the reason is because in the show their transformations are relatively straightforward, making it less of a challenge representing it in toy form.

    I meant in movie design, not toy form. I apologize if I wasn't clear.
     
  19. John TheDestroyer

    John TheDestroyer I rise, you fall

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    Oh, thanks. Just a thought, but wouldn't Cumberbatch just have done the face for Smaug?

    I love Animated, but the majority of the Animated figures are still a lot simpler than the majority of the movie figures.

    Fair enough.

    Those figures are all nice, but I feel like (especially in CW) a giant chunk of the figures were pretty straightforward and simple. Nice, yes, but still not especially elaborate. 3 figures I have beside me right now are Aoe voyager Optimus, Dotm deluxe Roadbuster, and Hftd deluxe Sideswipe. Chances are, we will never get figures like those in a chug line. They are far too intricate designs to be used in (relatively) blocky figure designs such as the ones in the generations lines.

    Hybrid Prime?

    For the most part, I was referring to mainline type figures, obviously the masterpiece figures will be far more complex since they're so expensive and aimed directly at collectors.
     
  20. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Hammer of the Gunplas

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    Irrelevant. Just because you didn't mention him doesn't mean you didn't say movie lines, of which he is part of, thus he is a valid example of how the movie lines are not nearly as complex as you claim they are.
    It's less of a challenge to take a heavily stylized cartoon and accurately get both the robot and vehicle modes right with as minimal non-accurate kibble as possible (to which every single Animated toy accomplishes, the one exception being Leader Bulkhead but he can actually do the kibble-chair trick so he gets a pass), as compared to the films which have had to rely on shellforming more often than not?

    Well, of course not, because you're completely missing the goddamn point when you bring up Combiner Wars. The deluxes are all in effect quad changers because not only do they need to pull off robot and vehicle mode, but they also need to form arm and leg modes that are exactly the same size as the leg and arm modes of any other CW deluxe for the purposes of compatibility and interchangeability. The Voyagers needed to be solid and blocky to form solid torsos to support all the weight so the combiner doesn't fall over or crumble under its own weight.

    Additionally, these are TOYS. Kids will want to replicate what they see on the show, which is characters transforming between modes relatively quickly. You're never going to see a kid wanting to transform ROTF Leader Optimus Prime all that much compared to a more recent Optimus Prime for that reason.

    Wrong again.

    Here's the TRU Evolutions 2-pack of Optimus Prime, Classics (2006) and Evasion Mode (2014). I own this set and, personally? I think the near-decade-old Prime kicks the shit out of that horrible Evasion mode because it's just more fun. Elbows are not shit, he's got TWO guns which both transform and he can hold properly, and transforming him to truck mode isn't a maddening exercise of trying to turn the bastard inside out because his chest is nothing more than a bunch of panels.
    [​IMG]

    I couldn't find an image of the back of the box, but like I said I own it, so I know that Classics Prime is labeled a 15-step transformation, while Evasion Prime is only 18-step. That's not exactly a huge difference in complexity when it's only three steps and a 'step' in hasbro instruction terms can boil down to 'flip down feet'.

    But, in an official sense, that means Evasion Prime is only barely more complex, comparatively, than a toy nearly a decade its senior.

    How about something more recent?
    [​IMG]

    This is the back of the other Prime-themed 2-pack, featuring WFC Prime (Generations, 2010) and a variant of TR Kup (2017).

    This is officially Hasbro marketing here, but it does seem to say that TR Kup, a toy on shelves right now, has the exact same complexity as Evasion Mode Optimus Prime. And WFC Prime is even more complex than either of them.

    So officially, we actually have Generations toys as complex as AoE Voyager Optimus right now.
     

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