Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by GENOZAUR, Jul 29, 2009.
can anyone here really answer that wuestion in full?
not any one continuity in general
what i am asking is this
what would the primes role be in general when it comes to the entirity of transformers multiverse if one were to create a single g1 continuity through taking the best qualities of each individual continuity to amalgamate them togheter into a single continuity
you know like what dw and idw have done over time?
just my thoughts on the matter
when it comes to the primes and the role they play in cybertronian society it is in many ways a mix of shaman,general,demigod like avatar and savior to the primes people
more often then not the cybertronian destined to be prime would be a humbled individual born of lowly origins who throughout their lifetime has proven theirself to be a person of unquestionable,nigh incorruptible moral character
a near christ like individual as it were
one who has succeeded in expunging of the person psychologically and psiritually speaking very nearly and and all taints,marks , and blemishes they originally posessed to their person asa flawed being
when that person is accepted by the matrix as its current day living guardian they enter into a mutually symbiotic bond with the allspark, with cybertron, with vector sigma, and primus itself
a bond that over time melds their physical, spiritual, and psychological being into being the perfect living vessel for primus to live,to exist and to experience life through with the prime being the god or demigod like avatar of primus, a living imbodiment of primus's power and will and live essence as it were
from the allspark was born the living spark of each and every single living cybertronian that has ever lived, lives, and ever will live so that each spark can live, can grow, can learn and can evolve so that as each spark dies and returns to becoming one with the allspark it too can also live, grow, learn and evolve
it is to the allspark that each cybertronian returns when they die and as each spark returns to the allspark
in passing through the primes body that spark also temporarily melds with the spark of the living prime their by causing the prime to see,experience, and know for his self all that the spark as a living cybertronian did throught that cybertronians lifetime.
that spark as it passes through the spark bond is itself purified and expunged entirely of any of the dishonorable acts and crimes it asa living cybertronian commited in life with it being accepted fully into the allspark
though i would think none of that would happen at all if the spark of the dying cybertronian was itself wholeheartedly a servant of unicron
such as the fallen was for example
does that pretty much cover it the role for the most part?
your own answer is as good as any other.
Prime in G1 was like an Abraham Lincoln, honest, good to his citizens, and a big pacifist (Most of the time). BUT, he was also a General George Washington, and would lead the autobots swiftly into battle with the decepticons.
Prime in Beast Wars was about 1/4 of the original G1 Prime. However, he was much younger, and inexperienced, as he was leading a crew of explorers that got lost and went back in time. He actually got angry, made mistakes, reckless behavior, etc. He had closer relationships with his team in my opinion than in G1, probably because he commanded an entire society and couldn't get close to many people, or even a few, perhaps to be fair to the others.
Beast Machines, he's about the same, but he then kinda turns into an earthbound employee that just came out from the back smoking the Hookha. He's all about "feeling the transformation" and working for peace with the technorganic fight on cybertron. I am transformed.
R.O.D Prime was an empty void. He was just like a boss commanding his underpaid empty workers. He liked T.A.I though...and Shinji....
Armada Prime is 1/2 of the G1 Prime. He was way closer to the human companion characters than in G1, and extremely patient, resembling his G1 counterpart. However, his role on cybertron wasn't made clear, I don't think he was the George Washington of Cybertron, more like the Benedict Arnold of it. He just had his own little gig going on. He places a lot of trust in his few members that he brought to Earth, and puts their well-being first, like G1 Prime.
Energon Prime, he gets treated like the George Washington now. Everybody knows and serves him, pretty much. He loses a lot of his personality though, and is a bit impatient, really. I liked Megz way more than Prime, at least he had something going there!
Cybertron Prime is a mixture of Energon and Armada Prime. He's like the Armada Prime in that he has a smaller team at the beginning he brought to Earth and that he trusts them fully. Energon aspect is that he's a bit void of any personality, and that he's the head honcho.
Animated Prime is mostly an incarnation of BW Prime. However he's a born leader, responsible, and the capabilities to become a George Washington of Cybertron. However he has his BW Prime traits, he's young, inexperienced, leads a space bridge repair crew that accidentally landed on earth, makes rash decisions (In the beginning, like his BW counterpart), and has growing pains with his BW team. He grows to fully trust them eventually, but not all the time his concern is the well-being of his team.
Primus was only involved in Energon, I believe (I didn't watch all of Cybertron, Armada was the best out of the Trilogy). Prime wasn't really aware of him until around the end, when Primus powered up Prime to defeat Megz + Unicron.
Does this help? I would explain the comics too, but I'm rather tired ^_^;
When did IDW or Dreamwave amalgamate all the continuities into one big one with all the best parts? Woof.
Which way to Avalon?
I agree with GENOZAUR for the most part. He delineates a fairly well thought out TF theology.
For my self, I have always considered Optimus Prime and his Autobot warriors as a Cybertronian King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table. I see Optimus Prime as the most capable, pure, and powerful Prime in a line of great Primes. He is the Chosen One, the one to make the biggest difference, the one against all others will be measured.
The Matrix can be considered Excalibur, in that it not only gave the Primes in general their power, but, it was used to defeat the greatest TF evil and threat to the Universe, Unicron.
The analogy is not perfect, but, it does fit in a good many respects.
Funniest typo ever:
from the comic, optimus was a rebellion leader against megatron, leader of the autobots
when it comes to the Matrix it has powers that go beyond mere cybertronian legend. Aside from vector sigma it is presumably the only thing in the universe that could give life to a newly constructed Autobot shell body. The matrix could sustain it’s living guardian for many, many millennia at the height of his peak potential and abilities. It empowered its vessel with their own natural abilities magnified many many times over. One who was chosen by the matrix to lead was given the power to help him. The longevity and power it gave was awesome. but without it once the matrix had been passed on to the next chosen its previous guardian would become ancient in age and his systems would not be able to function very long without it.
essentually it makes it possible for the prime to go on living his klife in a kind of enhanced near perma youth such as it were
don't know if this scenario has ever been explored in the mythos over the years but these are just my thoughts on what would happen in the mythos if one were to leave the matrix in the body of the lifeless prime for a extended period of time
if one were to leave the matrix within the lifeless body of the dead prime it would pose a terrible danger to the allspark itself. when a transformer dies their spark rejoins the allspark within the matrix. should the matrix remain within the body of it's lifeless gaurdian Their mind would go into a dormant state within the lifeless body itself while the matrix would feed on the negative aspects of the lifeless transformers spark , while it's spark would neither be purified in becoming one with the allspark or reside with its lifeless body
the mind of the lifeless transformer body it remained in would be merged with the departed ones memories to create a new personality for the being while the corrupt matrix in feeding on the negative aspects of the fallen primes spark would imbue the dead body itself with residual matrix energy and would give it unnatural life as one of the living dead, a being that would crave the lifeforce of any living cybertronian with this lifeless former prime existing as a unnatural undead unliving being who would be neither living nor dead
a cybertronian vampire in a way.
it would result in the physical recreation of that dead primes inner darkside given life as a separate unnatural bieng. all that the matrix bearer was in life this dark born one would be his opposite, everything that the prime believed and fought for in life this Scourge would be against, this black convoy.
A shadow twin. A dark prime doppelganger, A unicronian/decepticon prime so to speak.
just my thoughts people but i actually think that would make for a suitable g1 origin story for a g1 style nemesis prime character
i am outright shocked they did not explore that nagle back in the marvel comics when it comes to the matrix quest storyline way back in the day.
Being a Prime obviously means you are in possession of the Touch. Possibly also the Power.
But what's interesting here is we're predicating all this on the notion that Primus "takes sides" or that the Matrix is, by default, an Autobot artifact. Remember, the faction split didn't exist at the very beginning. Whoever had the Matrix back then was just "a Cybertronian" as opposed to "an Autobot".
It may be that there are certain qualities that a Matrix bearer requires, but very little in the media indicates that they must be "Autobot qualities". If you look at the various Optimus Primes and Megatrons in different continuities, sometimes, outside of their basic goals, there isn't that much difference between them aside from qualities like compassion. Megatrons have been brave, intelligent, cunning, able to inspire great loyalty, and so on.
Do we have any confirmation that Shattered Glass Optimus carries a Matrix?
Remember also that the concept of "The Matrix" has been refined from a few different concepts that don't always fit together neatly. In the Marvel comics, the Creation Matrix was a program that could give life, making it very similar to the G1 cartoon's Vector Sigma. The comics then also had the Matrix Flame, linked to the Creation Matrix (still a program at this point).
So I see it as sort of a multi-branched deal.
You have Primus, Lord of Light, creator of the Cybertronians. He can grant life as he wills, maybe creating sparks, maybe breaking them off of his own being. It is an unclear doctrinal point.
You have Vector Sigma, the Intercessionist. It is a "mega-computer" housed within the depths of Cybertron. It can provide a channel directly to the essence of Primus himself, but it very much is not Primus. It can grant a spark, and can apparently be used by almost anyone who makes the pilgrimage. The Key to Vector Sigma is an artifact unto itself, able to both activate the Intecessionist, and, by itself, to convert matter into a technomatter state.
The Oracle is the shell-program for Vector Sigma, it provides a means of communing with the Well of All Sparks (or Allspark, for short) and gives the mega-computer a form of sentience, although one unlike the Transformers themselves.
The Botcon 2007 toy bio states:
"Before Cybertron existed, there was Vector Sigma; a super computer of incalculable power. So great was this entity that it could tap into the source of Transformers life itself, the Allspark. Over the eons, Vector Sigma was used by many beings to imbue lifeless Transformer bodies with the spark of life without judgment. If it was asked to produce noble protectors, it did so. If it was asked to create merciless destroyers, it did that as well. Activating Vector Sigma required a special key, capable of turning organic matter into metal. In lieu of such a key, any Transformer sharing Vector Sigma’s computational matrix could activate it at the cost of its own life.
Vector Sigma’s influence reached across the multi-verse, where several similar computers would take on its name but serve different functions. In one, Vector sigma was a computer that all Autobot and Maximal leaders were bonded to. In another it was surrounded by a program known as the Oracle in an age where Maximals and Predacons had taken the place of their ancestors as the primary residents of Cybertron. No matter its location, the very name Vector Sigma has held even some of the greatest Transformers in awe including Optimus Prime himself."
So it's multiversal and connected to Primus. If we want to push the Prime/Jesus angle, Vector Sigma is the Holy Spirit.
The Matrix itself is a more "active" sort of thing, then. It is meant to be carried within a single Transformer and provides a less direct link to Primus and the Allspark most of the time. Of course, its use as a "Unicron destroyer" is also a function, opening up a "surprise" channel directly to the Lord of Light, allowing him to strike at Unicron directly and unstoppably. It could be the only reason it didn't work for Galvatron in the G1 movie is because it was meant to be opened inside the Devourer.
So the Matrix bearer is a champion of Primus, an exemplar of his will and might. Note, because of the very long duration of the Great War, Optimus has held the Matrix for longer than anyone else ever has. Because of this, what we know about it is incomplete. Would it accept a Decepticon as bearer? How much power does it truly give its bearer beyond maybe a physical upgrade and a huge confidence boost?
Exploring those elements could make for some interesting stories.
heres my question when it comes to the whole spark bond matter
when it comes to cybertron,vector sigma and the allspark they are each parts of the greater whole that is primus right?
so just how far could a living cybertronian, or a prime for that matter ,go in exploring that spark bond?
Well in the cartoon, G1, they didn't go in to the story of Primus. Vector sigma was just the life source of all TFs, in which Alpha Trion held the keys to.
Now in Energon, there was no vector sigma, or allspark, just primus itself, no medium to reach him or parts of him.
The comics, well, I haven't generated an opinion on that. To me they're all unrelated so far. So far. I've only been reading the breed of IDW anyway.
wouldn't he be the Prime Minister?
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