Well, I've read both the Dreamwave and IDW G1 comics...

Discussion in 'Transformers Comics Discussion' started by johnboy3434, Nov 14, 2009.

  1. johnboy3434

    johnboy3434 Well-Known Member

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    The only thing I haven't read is the one-shot Continuum that came out a couple days ago.

    I hate to say it, but I think Dreamwave did a better job in the time that it had the license. Prime Directive was the single greatest TF story I've ever read, nudging out the Unicron battle from the Marvel continuity for the title. Speaking of which, probably the biggest disappointment of the whole thing is that Dreamwave went bankrupt before Unicron could show up, because the foreshadowing was positively epic. It really made it seem like this anonymous threat was death incarnate, and that it was slowly but surely closing in on the TFs.

    As for IDW, I think we'll look back on All Hail Megatron as the TF equivalent of the Clone Saga. Granted, it wasn't nearly as convoluted, but it's the first TF miniseries that NEVER FUCKING ENDS. The idea was good, but it was enough to fill six issues, tops. AHM went on for 16 issues, and if you include the Spotlight tie-ins, that number jumps to 21. I just... ugh! I'm so glad I finished it.

    Right now, I'm moving on to the Dreamwave Armada/Energon comic. After that, I'll see if I can hunt down the Panini Armada comic (no luck so far).
     
  2. Andersonh1

    Andersonh1 Man, I've been here a LONG time Veteran

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    You won't find many who list Prime Directive as their favorite Transformer story ever. :) 

    I really enjoyed the Dreamwave comics at the time, and still enjoy most of them. Their approach with G1 seemed to be to follow up on the TV series season 1 and 2 continuity, but to take their universe in a less "kid-friendly" direction. So we got, for example, Grimlock's defection and Superion's death by nuke. We got theories for how the triple-changers came to be and ditto for the Micromasters. It was a good run of Transformer stories, I'd say. Too bad it was cut short, though I have to admit that as much as I like Dreamwave, I like IDW's Transformer universe more, so things have worked out as far as I'm concerned.

    I'd just like to have seen War Within 3 completed, along with Energon.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2009
  3. Josh

    Josh Comic Color-guy

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    i'll be honest, i like the continuity Dreamwave had set up a lot more than IDW

    IDW, really, hasnt gone anywhere. Or at least nowhere good. I think IDW's stories get too caught up in the moment, and by that i mean abandoning the "big picture" plot for trying to satisfy the right now. I think Infiltration/Escalation started off really well but along the way all of the ideas that made it good got replaced. Too many open ended story threads. And because of all of that we never got the full story. IDW's -ation stuff drug on for far too long that by the time things could've gotten put back on track the story was truncated and replaced and because of that made things overly convoluted and really just left a bad taste in my mouth. Right now I could really care less.

    I'd much rather IDW just start from scratch. Make a plan and stick with it. Tell a story with a beginning-middle-end. Make it worth my while. Because so far i feel like it hasnt really been worth it. There's no satisfaction in the end. Just rushed conclusions to make way for the next "breakout" mini-series.

    At least Dreamwave had an interesting timeline
    [and i rather liked Prime Directive myself. I dont really understand all the hate against it. i thought it was pretty good]

    not that i like hate IDW or anything :p 

    Right now I just wish IDW woulda been brave enough to hit the reboot button and not try to confine and make sense of this mess. I just really dont feel like its worth it. People woulda been upset, yes, but i think in the end just ending it wouldve been better. Cut the strings and start fresh
     
  4. Scantron

    Scantron Well-Known Member

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    I think DW's G1 stuff was weak at the beginning and Prime Directive is just painful, IMO. However, their stuff improved a lot over time and they were really hitting their stride by the time the ongoing series got started. With the exception of the odd misstep (art in Micromasters) and some minor continuity errors (Blitzwing), they had an excellent universe built up that was very enjoyable and looked like it was headed towards big things. Had DW survived, I think their universe could have become the definitive G1 comic universe.

    With IDW, I thought they started out very strong. They brought in a lot of fresh, new ideas while still keeping it grounded in the recognizable TF characters. The plot was going on a slow burn and looked like it was headed in some very interesting places. But then, Furman started setting up too many ongoing plot threads and the story started to go off the rails about midway through Devastation. Follow that with Furman having to wrap his story up way too fast, a soft reboot, a number of major continuity errors and another soft reboot and IDW's G1 universe has collapsed into a complete mess, IMO. It's going to take them awhile to dig themselves out of this and I'm not convinced they can do it without some major retcons and/or a hard reboot.
     
  5. Andersonh1

    Andersonh1 Man, I've been here a LONG time Veteran

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    Is that the company's fault, or the fault of impatient readers? I don't know, I really liked all the early story material with the planned, phased infiltration in disguise to destabilize the world. I loved E.J.'s art. And I was interested in where the Dead Universe plotline was going as well. I wish it hadn't been cut short. I had no problem with the pace of the books, or where it was going. I'm in the minority on that point, I'm sure. :) 

    My point is, do you think it was Simon Furman's fault as a writer, or the short attention span of the audience that was more to blame? Or some other factor entirely?

    Do you think All Hail Megatron accomplished that? Or was it too open-ended? And do you think the ongoing series might address some of your issues?

    You're a colorist for the books, aren't you (unless I'm mistaking you for someone else, and if so, sorry)? You're a bit more on the inside than we are. What's your impression of the direction the editorial staff are going? Do you feel they're trying to correct past mistakes? Or are we looking at more of the same?

    They did have some cool stuff going on. So much potential wasted because of that bankruptcy. :( 

    I think it's pretty decent. I just doubt most people do, based on comments I've read over time.
     
  6. Josh

    Josh Comic Color-guy

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    honestly, i think i'd put it on Simon. He just developed too many plot threads and i feel like we ended up wasting a lot of time following those out instead of sticking to the main over-arching story. [like the Magnificence, and Sixshot/The Reapers. stuff like that]. Just had too much going on that I got lost. I had no idea what the "main" story was.
    Honestly, i went into AHM not liking a lot of it. Mostly because of its "soft reboot" nature. Its supposed to be in the same continuity but stuff is randomly changed. I would've much preferred just a hard reboot. Get it over with. Like i said earlier.

    To be honest I dont really know. The only stuff I know anything about are the projects that I work on and even then i'm in the dark most of the time. I never hear the pitch, the overall story or anything. Most times i find out about stuff at the same pace everybody else would; issue by issue. I just read the issue more in advance than everybody else.
    As far as editorial direction and all that? Again, i dont know. I dont really know Denton and Andy too well personally so I dont really know exactly how they feel about things. I dont talk to them enough. Not about stuff like that anyways. Its usually just about the project and pages at hand.
     
  7. johnboy3434

    johnboy3434 Well-Known Member

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    On a related note, I'm also watching the G1 cartoon. I know that the show is very much a sacred cow, but I can't help saying it: the entire process is sheer PAIN. It is, quite frankly, one of the worst cartoons I've ever forced myself to watch. I've gotten through the first 12 episodes, but I honestly don't know how I'm going to make it through 86 more. The writing is so painfully kiddy that I have a hard time paying attention to it.

    Also, Starscream is the most irritating little sycophant I've ever seen, but that's been true in just about every continuity. Doesn't change the fact that Megatron should have killed him twenty times by now.

    Please tell me it gets better. Please!
     
  8. Tekkaman Blade

    Tekkaman Blade Professor of Animation

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    IDW started out good, but based on many of the threads here, they kept complaining he was retreading old storys and wanted something to happen. They also wanted it to be more G1!. The story got ended too fast and many of the ideas never went anywhere. Plus the whole I used to be a man Arcee angle annoyed a lot of fans.

    DW did a better job balencing their continuity in a way that appeased comics and cartoon fans, and at times felt like the missing parts between season's 2 and 3. They were also doing a good job providing the back story of the transformers in War With In and setting up events there that would pay off in the ongoing series. You could tell the writers of the series were fans and they also had a pretty good grasp of the character's personalites. Though there was a mixing of continuities, their characters rarely felt out of place. The pacing was also better in the ongoing, with smaller stories focusing on the minor characters and side stories showing events that were leading up to something big. Had Pat Lee not cut and run, DW could have built something that fans could truly appreciate. I wish they could get the Dreamwave writers to write the IDW series.
     
  9. Tekkaman Blade

    Tekkaman Blade Professor of Animation

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    IDW started out good, but based on many of the threads here, they kept complaining he was retreading old storys and wanted something to happen. They also wanted it to be more G1!. The story got ended too fast and many of the ideas never went anywhere. Plus the whole I used to be a man Arcee angle annoyed a lot of fans.

    DW did a better job balencing their continuity in a way that appeased comics and cartoon fans, and at times felt like the missing parts between season's 2 and 3. They were also doing a good job providing the back story of the transformers in War With In and setting up events there that would pay off in the ongoing series. You could tell the writers of the series were fans and they also had a pretty good grasp of the character's personalites. Though there was a mixing of continuities, their characters rarely felt out of place. The pacing was also better in the ongoing, with smaller stories focusing on the minor characters and side stories showing events that were leading up to something big. Had Pat Lee not cut and run, DW could have built something that fans could truly appreciate. I wish they could get the Dreamwave writers to write the IDW series.
     
  10. Andersonh1

    Andersonh1 Man, I've been here a LONG time Veteran

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    You know, as much as I like the pre-AHM stories, that makes a lot of sense. I can't really argue with it.
     
  11. shibamura_prime

    shibamura_prime Jumpin' Jellyfish! Super Mod

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    You should get a Pulitzer for this quote.
     
  12. Boo

    Boo Addicted to candy canes.

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    I don't know. Obviously Simon has to take some of the blame. He's the writer that put all the different story threads to paper, afterall. However, it never seemed like he had any kind of editorial presence to keep him and his stories in check. Same goes for Shane on AHM, as well. Any writer, no matter how good or bad, needs some boundaries and a framework to work within. If not they just keep adding more and more to the story, all the while almost inevitably contradicting something else that was already written. After awhile you wind up with the mess that is the IDWverse.

    I think the -ations are really good for the most part. Being perfectly honest, if you divorce AHM from anything prior, on it's own it's not terrible either. They just feel like totally separate universes in too many ways.
     
  13. Nachtsider

    Nachtsider Banned

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    I love Dreamwave's stuff. It engaged me right from the get-go, while the IDW stuff took a while to grow on me.
     
  14. Nachtsider

    Nachtsider Banned

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    Amen to every single line. It only hurts more if you read Marvel G1 prior to watching the cartoon, like I did.
     
  15. Ops_was_a_truck

    Ops_was_a_truck JOOOLIE ANDREWWWWWS!!!!!!

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    I'll throw in my two cents as well.

    I don't know a lot about the art decisions made or details involved in editing/honing either the IDW or the Dreamwave stuff. However, from a dumb ol' Transformers enthusiast's perspective, I really enjoyed the Dreamwave stories - and the universe they set up - a lot more than what I've seen of IDW.

    I've read all of the -ation series, read the first AHM trade paperback and tried (desperately) to keep up with those goddamn spotlight comics. During the -ation series (and, I guess, during Stormbringer,) I felt like, "Okay, I can see how these events kinda tie into the same universe." However, by the time I had read my nth spotlight and was working on AHM, I just felt confused and fatigued. There was too much going on and not a lot of it was set up in a riveting-enough fashion to keep me interested.

    I have to agree with the common consensus posted thus far regarding Dreamwave's lore - their storyline, and the characters involved in that universe, were all kinda tumbling slowly towards one really impressive climax. The hints delivered through the use of Galvatron and Scourge, the suggestions of Unicron...having all of that seeded into the series as far back as the second miniseries was pretty cool. Also, I dunno...while there was a lot going on in the Dreamwave universe, it seemed like the writers on the Dreamwave team did a good job of tying up tangent plot threads with a nice little bow. I think the miniseries approach was most of the reason for that.

    Finally...ugh, I know I might bring upon myself hyperbolic criticism, but dammitall, I liked the artwork in Dreamwave. ALL of it. I'm no fan of how Pat Lee treated his talent, but I absolutely loved the look and feel of the G1 universe in that first miniseries. It felt child-like and familiar, but mature. It felt like coming home. Admittedly, my favorite art from the Dreamwave series was whenever Don Fig was the man drawing the robits, but, more open-endedly, I just liked everything about how Dreamwave executed the art design for the Transformers - their shapes, their really wide-breadth color pallets, their poses, including the dump-taking ones - more than the way IDW approached it. I did NOT like the art in any of the -ation series. I found it very bland. (My glaring exception here is the different sylistic approaches in the spotlight series and the Dreamwave-esque look to AHM. That, at least to me, was more impressive.)
     
  16. llamatron

    llamatron Shut up, Nigel. TFW2005 Supporter

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    I enjoyed the War Within stuff from Dreamwave and was fairly neutral on their G1 series. Hated Sunstorm.

    IDW started ok but soon devolved into horrible contrived nonsense. LOOK OUT GUYS IT'S THUNDERWING AND THIS TIME HE'S EVEN MORE INVINCIBLE THAN BEFORE!!! BETTER CALL THE WRECKERS!!!
     
  17. CZ Hazard

    CZ Hazard Sons of Unicron PTT

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    From what I heard, Simon was told at the eleventh hour that there wouldn't be another "ation" series (to make way for AHM), forcing him into finishing off the story in the TF spotlights. Really combining 10-11 issues into 5 one shots, each having to focus on the individual character as well as try and wrap up the tapestry he had started way back in Infiltration.
    Maybe his fault for being too ambitious with a Transformers story? Could be, but that's what made the UK issues so great, he told rich galaxy spanning, character driven stories rather than hackneyed status quo toyline tie-ins, which is all anyone really expected from a UK comic book about transforming robots.
    Better to look to the stars and trip over every now and then, than to be too scared to look up for fear of falling.

    For what its worth I like both the "ation" series and AHM, but overall I preferred the "ation" series, as it works very well when read together as a whole. I recommend the Première Hardcovers collecting that entire run.

    And to answer the thread question, I prefer the IDW 'verse, I like the idea of "the great shutdown", I liked Magnus being revealed as Primes brother and the armour falling away, and I liked War Within but other than that the DW universe left me cold.
    I slightly preferred the art on the DW for Don fig and James Raiz, but I hate Pat Lees Optimus, I hate the small little square windows on his chest. Yuck!

    Fans of James Raiz, I recommend "Tokyo Storm Warning" by him and Ellis, excellent 3 issue series for fans of giant robots and Evangelion in particular.
     
  18. Magnus' Mate

    Magnus' Mate Well-Known Member

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    "Prime Directive"!? When I read that, I thought you must be joking. Then I realised you weren't. Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but even if I was the biggest Dreamwave fan ever (I'm not), that wouldn't rate as a good story.

    Go to tfarchive.com and read Cliffjumper's (very amusing) reviews of the issues. They highlight perfectly the millions of flaws with that wretch of a mini-series.

    I've been pretty down on Dreamwave for years now; rereading some of the stuff....it's not ALL bad. When they weren't obsessively quoting the cartoon series and 1986 movie, Mad Brick (sorry, Brad Mick) did a few interesting things.

    And, in all honesty, now that IDW have not only jumped numerous sharks but also hit more than one gigantic iceberg, it's hard not be a LITTLE more generous in my reassessment of Dreamwave.

    It did some good stuff- War Within was okay, I liked the Armada series (despite never seeing the cartoon and not collecting the toys). IDW have now pulled as many stinkers.

    Modern Transformers comics have failed. As always, the Complete Marvel Saga (e.g. US/UK integrated as they should be!) outshines any of the dross since. Rereading Target: 2006 again at the moment and boy it still shines!

    Poor old Furman. Back in fandom in the late 1990s he was the God that could do no wrong, and poor Uncle Bob was the immature devil for writing "Carwash of Doom". Thankfully, in recent years, Budiansky has rightly received more credit not only for his great comic stories, but also for essentially creating Transformers as we know it.

    But Furman? His star has started to fade as well. It's not his fault- like other great creators e.g. George Lucas - he works best when he is restrained/constricted in some way. Back in the 1980s he had all sorts of restrictions - his UK work had to fit in continuity with the US stuff, 11-page weekly, had to include certain new characters sometimes etc etc, and it turned out great!!

    But give him free reign to create "his" vision (like Lucas and the prequels) with no restraint on what he can do, and put him in the mini-series/TPB frame of mind...and it all comes undone, as IDW has made abundantly clear.
     
  19. ORIO

    ORIO Plant-Based Bot Super Mod News Staff

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    DW g1 volume 3, mtmte profile books and war within are my favorite Transformer comics of all time and I fully intend on putting a voodoo curse on Pat Lee.

    I want Brad Mick/James McDonough to write transformers again. I hope Mike Costa does a good job if not better
     
  20. Fit For natalie

    Fit For natalie tfwiki nerd

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    My opinion:

    Dreamwave - started off weak, steadily got better

    IDW - started off well, steadily got worse


    Dreamwave's More Than Meets The Eye profile books are one of the finest Transformers factual books ever written, and probably the best thing Dreamwave ever did. I regret that James McDonough and Adam Patyk got screwed over by Dreamwave and are evidently no longer in this business.

    I think it's partly to do with the majority of the fandom's expectations and demands of what we think Transformers *should* be.

    IDW made an unusual start for the Transformers comic, no doubt to differentiate it from the G1 cartoon-tastic nature of the Dreamwave series, and indeed, more heavily emphasize the nature of "disguise" than had previously been seen in Transformers fiction. And hey, cold wars are a method of fighting we've rarely seen in TF yeah?

    And yeah, the problem is, us fans were conditioned to expect a kick-the-door-in-spray-the-room-with-bullets-while-shouting-HELLYEAH! type of rock and roll action, so we complained about the slower, more subtle story-telling method. Those of us who warmed to this story and EJ Su's art (people complained about the art because it wasn't Dreamwave style art, as I recall) and/or those who never had complaints were evidently too few in number to satisfy IDW (which isn't a criticism about them, as I gather the license fees for this franchise are expensive).

    Furman has to take the other part of the blame for the pre-AHM days for developing WAY TOO MANY PLOT THREADS that he could never have wrapped up and made the series overly-complex. This goes back to our discussion a few months ago about IDW - Furman would make a great editor for IDW's Transformers comics. He has a good mind for "the big picture" and "big events" so he could steer the course in terms of the overall direction of the series, while others write the books.

    I wouldn't call G1 cartoon a sacred cow. There's plenty of critics, but yeah, there's also plenty of defenders who see it as the finest hour of TF televisual fiction, mainly from fans who have had limited experience in other forms/examples of TF fiction, or who have just recently to Transformers after many years due to the movie hype.

    As for it being kidding - yeah, it's a children's cartoon, and some of the writers/producers involved commented then and recently that it wasn't done with much thought or consideration for absolute quality. The Transformers was just your average 1980s childrens cartoon/toy commercial, the fact that it was advertising an appealing concept meant people remember it more than say, Thundercats or something.
     

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