Unpopular Opinion - All 5 Films Are Good

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by DarkEnergon22, Mar 31, 2018.

  1. IdiotBlaster

    IdiotBlaster Banned

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    How do you know that?

    A huge fight, no, I wasn't expecting that.

    So you weren't implying that when you said you were "disappointed they weren't some legendary force"? You just wanted to see fight between Optimus and Grimlock?

    Even if I did misinterpret your point, how is that at all like not even fucking watching the movie you are criticizing?

    That's no excuse for them being introduced half way in and barely being in the movie.

    Yes, it was.

    It wasn't horribly written, were there changes I would have made, yes. And TLK really isn't incongruent with AoE. Sure there are some things that were changed, but it doesn't render the story incompatible with AoE.

    Of course they could be, there are very few movies you couldn't say the same thing about. They are still far superior to the first one.
     
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  2. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Anthony Hopkins with a submachine gun. 'Nuff said!

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    Chicago wouldn't have been as much as a disaster as it was because the Autobots would have been able to intercept them much quicker?

    Humanity was screwed REGARDLESS of what choice they made, which the previous 'negotiations' with The Fallen should have made very clear that the Decepticons don't actually give a shit and just do what they want. If you're screwed with at least some silver lining if you refuse, as opposed to you being screwed if you agree and you forfeit the silver lining, why would you ever go for the second option?

    You weren't around when that trailer dropped. The forums went INSANE over that bit.

    Even though Optimus vs Grimlock is like, one of the biggest same-side rivalries in the entire franchise? They've fought each other almost as many times as Prime has fought Megatron!

    The only purpose of even including the Dinobots in the advertising as heavily as they did was to imply that it HAD to be the Dinobots, that it HAD to be Grimlock going up against Prime.

    Instead all there was were some Lord Zedd knockoffs who got ONE LINE of development/explaination of who they were and why they were on the ship (which did not include where the hell Lockdown even got them from or why they turned into dinosaurs). Seriously, they could have been called the Monsterbots and had the same names and it wouldn't have changed a thing.

    Because the first one was playing up the mystery angle from the human view point - who were these aliens, that could be anything around them? What did they want? What did they even truly look like?

    The original, initial advertisements for the film didn't even SHOW much of anything beyond maybe the entire sequence involving the Beagle 2, where all you see is a shadowy giant (Blackout) appear right before stepping on the rover, then you get the transforming title.

    So humans reacting to an alien invasion that they can't even properly comprehend the true scale of is less interesting than humans clearly thinking said ongoing invasion is not even really worth paying much attention to anymore?

    So, that was Quinta-bitch's hand at the end of AoE then?

    The box office performance of TLK being lower than the first film despite having a bigger budget, more advertising, more international exposure and showings, and a hell of a lot more star power backing it, begs to differ.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2018
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  3. IdiotBlaster

    IdiotBlaster Banned

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    No.

    It's not the same situation, as much as you like to think it's exactly like what happened in RoTF it's really not.
     
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  4. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Anthony Hopkins with a submachine gun. 'Nuff said!

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    Well, since you clearly know what would have happened, explain it to me.

    The Fallen: "do this thing that will ensure the Autobots are in no position to stop us if we decide to go back on our word"

    Sentinel: "do this thing that will ensure the Autobots are in no position to stop us if we decide to go back on our word"

    I fail to see the difference beyond The Fallen not arranging for the Autobots to be killed like Sentinel, but he also was going on the whole "only a PRIME can kill me!" shtick and Megatron had already killed Optimus by that point, so he was already convinced he was in the clear for harvesting the sun the moment he got the Matrix.
     
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  5. The Dark Seeker

    The Dark Seeker Well-Known Enabler

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    Apparently, you didn't read my post. Either that or you cherry picked it to take certain things it out of context. Good job.


    Yeah, right.


    That was just a part of the movie I found grossly disappointing. Do you not understand what you're reading? Or are you purposely employing a severe lack of reading comprehension to troll?

    Gee....more lack of reading comprehension. Since I have to break it down for you, so be it. You basically accused AB of not being able to critcize a movie without watching it....when in actuality...one only needs to know the plot. He doesn't have to know every second of every single scene. Yet you...without even reading my post, decide to cherry pick and misrepresent my point. Oh, wait...I know. Only you can call people out on that, but you can't be called out on it. Gotcha.

    And how would you suggest they be introduced?


    No. It wasn't.

    So you admit to it, then backtrack. Nope.

    See, you're stating it as fact, when it's just your opinion. That's where you lose the argument. Opinions are not fact. If the last two were so "far superior to the first one" then why are people becoming so tired of it, that the last one did horribly in the box office by comparison? Like it was mentioned...the numbers don't lie. Let's face it, you're blindly in love with the movies. That's all there is to it. I went to give it a chance to see if I'd get entertained by them. I was by the first 3. The last two....no. Just no. If you can't accept that people didn't like the movie, well.....that's you. I honestly don't care if people liked it. Because that's all it is. A difference in taste and opinion. If you want to go on some super crusade in defending what's generally agreed upon as a shit movie, then you do you.
     
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  6. IdiotBlaster

    IdiotBlaster Banned

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    The government says no to Sentinel Prime, so then he immediately attacks and kills all the Autobots.

    You have to look at the details and exactly what position they are in. It's not the same.

    No, you can't say almost everyone was hyped because a bunch of people in ONE theater cheered.

    I don't actually think you know what I am saying.

    No, he doesn't just need to read a summary on wikipedia. He needs to know the details and the context of what he is saying or he will fail to realize things like Lockdown was helping the humans kill Autobots. He had to have that pointed out to him. It makes him look foolish.

    Admit to what, that TLK made changes from AoE? So what? Retcons are a thing.

    You talk about me having comprehension issues. I already said that was my opinion.
     
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  7. The Dark Seeker

    The Dark Seeker Well-Known Enabler

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    What about other theaters. Mentions on social media? Discussions with friends? First you take my post out of context, now you're just taking it literally. Ok. You do you.


    At this point I'm beginning not to care.

    Really?

    Transformers: Age of Extinction (film) - Transformers Wiki

    So that excerpt right there wouldn't have told him that Lockdown was helping humans kill Autobots? Interesting viewpoint you've got there. There's also the synopsis of it below that introduction too. You don't need to get every single bit of emotional content or emotional context in the movie to have a basic understanding of what's going on. That is what actually makes you look like the foolish one. Not AB.

    Yet you speak as if your opinion was irrefutable fact despite critics and other fans disagreeing with you. *smdh* Listen, I really don't care if you like it and want to cherish the last two movies as if they were the holy bibles of TF fiction, but if you're going to tell me it's "superior" then I'm just going to have to wholeheartedly disagree. There was absolutely nothing superior about AOE or TLK in comparison to the first 3 movies. And this is me, someone's who's not a fan with blinders on like you, who actually enjoyed the first 3 movies...saying this. With that, I'm done here.
     
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  8. GoLion

    GoLion No longer a collector

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    I think the subjective quality of the movies comes down to a few things. First, what do you want from a movie? Second, do you want a thoughtful piece of fiction? Third, does consistency matter?

    For me, the movies are enjoyable. But I know what I'm getting with a Bay movie. Light on plot - lots of explosions. That's it.
     
  9. IdiotBlaster

    IdiotBlaster Banned

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    The point is, I don't think you can actually gauge what the majority of people felt.

    Yes really.

    And yet he actually had to be told that. You can search through his posts if you want, but yes. Autobot Burnout did not know that Lockdown was helping the humans.

    That's exactly how you come across to me.

    You have to have fan blinders on to think that.
     
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  10. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Anthony Hopkins with a submachine gun. 'Nuff said!

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    ...then what was Sentinel doing asking humans to get rid of the Autobots? He certainly didn't give a shit about keeping them alive - considering how Starscream went and blew up their ship to ensure they were dead - but if a straightfoward attack would have completely obliterated the Autobots anyway, then from a strategic view point that is the better option as that personally ensures that the Autobots are dead.

    Yes, getting the Autobots out of the way was easier, but if he wanted them dead anyway then he's an idiot for throwing up formalities instead of launching a straight assault and killing the Bots alongside the humans, proverbially taking out two birds with one stone.

    The Decepticons want to do something (excavate the Sun Harvester and fire it into the sun, activate the space bridge pillars to drag cybertron to Earth), but the Autobots are the only things that can ensure they fail. So they ask the humans to render the Autobots unable to actually do anything in response (force them to stand down, send them off the planet entirely). The humans comply, the Autobots are out of the picture, and the Decepticons are free to enact their plan without resistance.

    The only difference after all that is that Sentinel has the Cons destroy Chicago for some reason - I legit don't recall if the film goes into detail why he had to activate the pillars in Chicago since he doesn't even do it on top of the Sears/Willis tower, the tallest building for miles around, but instead on top of some church.
    I mean here on the forums, not the theaters.
    I read the article on the TFwiki - are you saying that the main online resource for transformers information is wrong, too? And every summary there is outright says Lockdown is helping CW, so I don't know what you think I'm reading.

    If you have to completely change the backstory of the setting between films, then you aren't even trying to tell the same story in a sense. The kind of retcons being shoved into the films continuously put Transformers into more and more human history, when previous films made it clear that Transformers were only involved at certain points of human history, or the first film where they weren't really involved at all and it was just Megatron having crashed into the arctic and his body studied to develop modern technology.
     
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  11. Galvatross

    Galvatross Swamp Lord Shrek-traoridinairre! Veteran

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    I have to agree with IdiotBlaster here.

    With all due respect Dark Seeker, I can't agree with this.

    If a fan is going into every thread with arguments about how a awful movie is, and then openly admits he's never seen it, then that person needs to watch the movie before their arguments are going to be considered valid. Many people clearly did not watch the movie or weren't paying attention.

    You don't have to agree with IB's opinion, but a solid, valid opinion about a movie can only come from watching a movie.

    I have to respectfully disagree, and I have given plenty of good reasons:

    Age of Extinction is the Best Film of the Series

    AoE's stories and characters make logical sense in a post-DotM context. It's the most character-focused of the films, but it takes place in a larger universe. Of all five films, it's the most focused on the thoughts and feelings of the robots themselves. None of the other films give as much focus to a robot character as AoE does to Optimus. None of the other villains in the movies have the nuance of Lockdown. For once, we have a villain whose goal isn't to destroy or enslave humanity, even though he doesn't think much of humans. It's the only film where the mcguffin is not only found on Earth; instead, it's a weapon Lockdown gives the humans that was not just detonated on Earth, but on thousands of worlds. Megatron plays a bigger role in the plot than he does in any of the other films; for once we have a Megatron voiced by Welker, who doesn't die, who can go toe-to-toe with Prime, and who is subservient to nobody. On the contrary, AoE Megatron plays KSI and Lockdown, the latter whom unknowingly gives the humans the Seed that Galvatron wants. The voice acting is better and more emotional than any of the other films. The action is clearer and not as blurry. The Dinobots, while they don't speak, play the role of the cavalry well.

    One does not have to agree with my opinion, but frankly it's a well-supported opinion based on evidence from the movies. None of the movies are perfect, but none are anywhere near as bad for what they are trying to be as their most vitriolic detractors.

    If one looks from the point of view of nostalgia, one can argue the earlier films are better. When looked at from its own merits, I think AoE is better than the other four. If others think otherwise, that is fine as long as valid reasons are given. Others do not have to share my opinions, but there are numerous valid reasons why myself and some other fans consider AoE the best of the films. And even if one doesn't like it, it still has redeeming qualities.

    There is always more than one way to look at any film.
     
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  12. IdiotBlaster

    IdiotBlaster Banned

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    Who said it was easier to just kill them? Why fight a battle if you don't have to?

    Look I'm not going to recap the entirety of both films, but the situations are not the same. In RoTF you have an assault on a Pyramid wide open with full military support. In DoTM not only is Chicago locked down and the Decepticons are ready for an attack but they are in position around the globe.

    No, I'm saying you either read it wrong or just barely skimmed through it. You know you have been called out on more than one occasion for just being blatantly wrong about things you've said about AoE.

    You don't have to completely change it.
     
  13. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Anthony Hopkins with a submachine gun. 'Nuff said!

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    I will admit that Age of Extinction almost has a good idea behind it.

    If you completely remove it from the context of the previous films, and just assume that humans never really got along with the Autobots, then without context of the world established previously, it makes a lot more sense.

    However, it is inexplicably supposed to follow DOTM without really having any need to do so - Chicago could have been a completely different event than the one from DOTM, Megatron could have died from something else other than from Prime's beheading him, and NONE of the human characters from the first film come into play. You don't have Autobots with three films behind them just being removed from play, only to replace them with soulless human stereotypes in large robot form.

    Its that the plot of AoE is so by the numbers of the previous film, only really replacing the Decepticons with CW/Lockdown until Hong Kong, while trying to act like it's so much more, that establishes how poor the film truly is. Remove the baggage of the original trilogy and AoE actually has some positives to it. But as it stands? It is a continuity reboot desperately trying to come off as anything but a continuity reboot by walking back humanity and outright murdering any non-main Autobot still alive after DOTM by stacking the deck against the Autobots.

    Because if you had a 100% chance of getting rid of a problem permamently by a direct attack, while you can't actually be sure if the stealth attack is going to have the same result, and getting rid of the problem is the only thing holding up your plans, wouldn't you just go for the certain option instead of leaving things up to chance?

    Just because it was the easier option does not mean it is the better solution.

    You mean worthless military support? They didn't do SHIT to stop Devestator until Simmons deus-ex-machina's knowledge of a top secret railgun conviently being tested in that part of the world, which itself was only good for one shot. The military never got anywhere NEAR the pyramid, even before The Fallen got The Matrix. Or did you forget that the movies made a point of the Decepticons having dropped signal jamming to hamstring communincations in that part of the world (while senator asshole could still call up the general on a payphone several hundred miles away to complain)

    You mean the Decepticons around the world who do jack shit when the human armed forces actually do show up a bit later? Furthermore, again, it is mentioned that signal jamming is employed like in Egypt, and a giant fucking laser is being shot into the sky that the military doesn't even get anywhere close to.

    You're getting caught up on details, when what Fallen and Sentinel did were essentially the same: after the humans willingly incapacitated the Autobots, the bad guys proceed to take over an area and prepare to fire a laser into the sky. Sentinel just happens to already have everything he needs to fire the laser right away, while The Fallen has to wait for Deves-Vaccum to eat the top of the pyramid to unearth the Harvester and The Matrix to reform before being able to do the same.

    You act like because the details are different somehow doesn't make the similarities important. You'd have better luck trying to argue that Char Aznable trying to make the Earth uninhabitable by smashing his asteroid fortress into the Earth, causing a nuclear winter simply to force human migration into space from Char's Counterattack, is at all different from successfully achieving the Closed Plan from Armored Core For Answer - which you have to sabotage an energy array, causing massive populated flying craft to crash into the ground so you can fire a laser with the energy to destroy weapons orbiting space...forcing humanity to migrate into space because the surface of the Earth is already uninhabitable. The bottom line is that despite the difference in how it is achieved, the same thing happens: it is rendered impossible to live within the Earth's atmosphere and humans have to leave the planet.

    The details are irrelevant, the point is that the same thing happens with the two events in the TF films - Decepticons want the Autobots neutralized, the humans comply, and then the decepticons proceed with their plans to fire a laser into the sky that will ensure the doom of the planet and the extinction of the human species (by depriving them of the sun or working them to death is unimportant, the critical part is that humanity is doomed no matter what if the Decepticons pull off their plan).
     
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  14. The Dark Seeker

    The Dark Seeker Well-Known Enabler

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    I disagree. If you know what the movie is about, you've read the plot in text form, you can still formulate an opinion and it doesn't make it any less valid in my opinion. There could be a novelization of the movie, and still...one could have read that instead of watching the movie. The question of it being valid to me seems almost a way for someone to not consider a dissenting opinion. And what if Autobot Burnout watched it and still felt the same? Then you'd have an even longer diatribe of exactly, to the point, to every nitty gritty detail of how the last two movie sucked donkey balls. I don't think those wearing the blinders could handle that. But if that's what they want...then hey AB! Watch the movies. I'll have my popcorn ready and waiting for your posts! And the thing about Megatron/Galvatron, he was the only respectable character in AOE. He was....Megatron. Period. He had always been able to go toe to toe with Prime from my recollection. I could be wrong, but either way, how pathetic he looked in TLK was something that can be considered a sore point. As far as the dinobots are concerned....no man. Just no. Dinobots have always been the badass of the autobots. But no...instead of badasses, they're just easily forgettable characters. Grimlock was nothing more than a pet dog in TLK. So much for badassery. As I've mentioned so many times before, they were made to look like legendary beings only to be swayed by one single bitch slap and a cheesy ass after school special speech. No man. Just...no. You don't just elevate a character or a group of characters or hype them up to have your audience expect badassery only to show how fucking lame they were and then try to have them look like they're saving the day. That's like Ronda Rousey types of hype. No amount of CGI can ever negate the WTF moment in that scene. And you can't say that hype wasn't to be expected, given the way the trailer for the movie displayed the start of the fight between Prime and Grimlock. Redeeming qualities? If you meant the annoying ass character dying by way of being made into a statue? Ok I'll give you that ONE redeeming quality. But it's not enough to even say AOE was better. And no, I'm not looking at it from a nostalgia point of view either.

    I knew early on from the get go this was going to be a modern take on Transformers. If the character bot designs weren't enough of a clue to that, the alt modes were. What I was looking for in the movies was basically how the story was told. And for me, ONLY the first 3 stories fit the bill with the 3rd one being a "meh....whatever" film. The last two were more like the kid in the playground trying too damned hard to impress everyone, but he can't get his shit straight. That same kid everyone ignores. The stories were inconsistent at the very least. Watching The Last Jedi gave me the same "WTF" when I watched TLK. I was hoping....at least the tone set forth from AOE would actually be consistent in TLK. Nope. Sorry to say, but diarrheal poop has more consistency than the last two TF movies. And ya know, I did watch AOE again a few years back just to see it for it's own merits. Maybe I missed something. Nope. I can't ever recall a movie I paused more to do other things and practically forgot why I was watching. The only thing I would agree with you on is Lockdown. But he died. And not without help from Cade and a few others. Still, I have to wonder...these are highly advanced sentient beings. Sure the Autobots were shown as teaching humans how to take out TFs...but seriously? The advantage of weaponry and technology they had and still being killed off by humans is similar to saying our modern military can be taken out by a group using civil war style muskets and cannons. It's just nonsense no matter how you try to explain it. I really don't feel like wasting my time, fishing my old posts from years back just to explain my position as I've already done it enough while being called a "gee wunner" only because I didn't absolutely LOVE the bayformer films like some folks. So I'll just leave it at that.
     
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  15. IdiotBlaster

    IdiotBlaster Banned

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    To be honest, we don't know what the chance is of getting rid of the problem. And a direct attack is not always the best option.

    I like how you gun hand wave away the rail gun, but they were hardly worthless in RotF. Do you not remember the massive bomb they dropped. They couldn't even get drones into Chicago because the Decepticons shot them down. They couldn't even get air support until Sentinel had the gun ships focus on Optimus.

    I don't think you are looking at the details enough.
     
  16. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Anthony Hopkins with a submachine gun. 'Nuff said!

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    But you also just flat out stated that if the humans said no, Sentinel and the Decepticons would have attacked and the Autobots would have been destroyed as a result. You're the one acting like the chance of getting rid of the Autobots in that scenario is 100%, I'm just going off of what you said would happen.


    ...because the railgun ultimately only fired one shot at Devestator, which while it did blow his arm off and send him to his death, didn't occur until after Devestator had sufficiently eaten enough of the pyramid to expose its core?
    I remember the bomb, I remember Long Haul getting hit by it...I also remember it being nowhere even remotely close to the Pyramid. What good was the bomb if all it did was kill a few Decepticons but completely failed to stop The Fallen from activating the doomsday device after said bomb went off?

    The Decepticons aren't playing offense, though that's what you seem to think. In both the final battles of ROTF and DOTM, they're playing DEFENSE. All they have to do is buy enough time for their plan to succeed, which means keeping off the humans and Autobots from interfering with the thing shooting the laser.

    And yet a bunch of dudes with guns in cars were able to drive right up to the edge of the city, where they were only stopped because some decepticons just so happened to be chasing a group of humans in the opposite direction on the same road...and then the Autobots show up a minute later for a dramatic entrance.

    Oh, and those humans happened to have a rocket launcher somehow. If they didn't already know what they needed to hit WITH the rocket launcher, what would have stopped them from just using that to take down the Decepticon fighter? If you're up against a situation where you can't send in the big guns, send in small groups through the cracks to disrupt the enemy and open up the gaps for reinforcements.

    I don't think you quite get how poor a choice Chicago actually is in terms of being treated like an impenetrable fortress. The city is a major economic and transportation hub, there are numerous ways in and out of the city. There are these things called subway tunnels and do you know where all the major subway maintenance shops are located? OUTSIDE CITY LIMITS. There is literally NOTHING the Decepticons could do to stop strike teams from infiltrating the city through the subway network - what would they do, just cram themselves into the tiny stations waiting for something to come in through the tubes, whereupon they could do NOTHING because the roof is too low for them to transform (and as a side note, a subway train at full speed is shown to efficiently be able to cleave off Blackout's arm on the Transformers ride in Universal Studios). I also distinctly recall there being some scuba guys who show up swimming in the river, coming out near one of the bridges - guess the Decepticons aren't paying attention under the water either.

    Please, tell me more about the military response in ROTF, like the hovercraft landing ships on a shoreline next to the pyramids (which doesn't exist), or the railgun ship being able to target the pyramids with optical visual confirmation despite being several hundred miles away (curvature of the earth makes it impossible to see anything beyond 15 miles away no matter how good the zoom function on a camera is).
     
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  17. IdiotBlaster

    IdiotBlaster Banned

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    Yes, but we don't know what the U.S. Military counter attack would have done.

    It did more than that.

    This situations are completely different though. You don't seem to get that. You also seem to forget that the marker for the bomb drop was off. They didn't even have an opportunity for tanks or air support in Chicago.

    I'm talking about the details of the situation not dramatic license.
     
  18. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Anthony Hopkins with a submachine gun. 'Nuff said!

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    Irrelevant. You already went into detail about how useless the millitary was in trying to get back into Chicago after the Decepticons attacked, what exactly would have changed if the humans had said no? The only difference in that situation is that you have the same useless millitary and the Autobots, who you are sure couldn't survive the Decepticon attack anyway, meaning if the US threw everything at the Decepticons, they would still come up short, meaning total victory for Sentinel/the Decepticons.

    The only reason Sentinel wanted the Autobots gone is because they were legitamately the only thing that could stop him. The human military was a joke to him and he also had the entire Decepticon invasion fleet backing him up. He was convinced that humans couldn't resist the forces of the decepticons, it's why he still went for his god complex plan of wanting to enslave all of humanity to clean up Cybertron, instead of the cybertronians cleaning up their own mess, because 'we were gods' and shit.

    What, kill Sam temporarily with the shockwave? I've already explained to you how the bomb did nothing in the bigger picture - all it did was kill a few decepticons who were standing around basically, while The Fallen and the Sun Harvester were just chilling at the Great Pyramid completely unaffected. And you can't claim I didn't see ROTF because I saw it relatively close to its release date (I sat next to a dude who fucking bawled his eyes out when Prime died. It was really goddamn awkward because I'd gone to see the film with him). So please, tell me what I've forgotten about this magical superbomb that somehow slowed down the Decepticons from firing a death laser into the sun.

    Right. Because needing to mark a landmark visible from fucking space is even necessary.

    And again, tanks and air support are not the end all be all of human armed forces. We still have infantry for a reason. And DOTM outright showed how easily a handful of humans getting the jump on a Decepticon can incapacitate them real quick.

    Plus, why is the situation even a factor? The demands from the Decepticons are similar in ROTF and DOTM, the human reaction is identical in purpose in ROTF and DOTM, the Decepticons go back on their word in ROTF and DOTM, the human millitary is useless in ROTF and DOTM until the Autobots show up, and the Decepticons are going to destroy humanity because of some ancient thing firing a laser beam into the sky.

    The situation does not matter. Point for point, the same thing happens at the core fundamentals behind each 'grand plan' at the end.


    ...how is the exact manner by which the military response even gets there or even is carried out purely "dramatic license"? I mean, this is the actual shot from the film regarding the rail gun:
    [​IMG]

    Just look at that beautiful shoreline right next to the pyramids...that doesn't exist if you actually look at aerial images of the pyramids
    [​IMG]

    Or, you know, the immediate sequence following the rail gun monitor where Devestator gets hit and the film itself shows there is no water anywhere remotely close by. Which is because while the Red Sea is the closest body of water to the pyramids, it's still about 70 miles away, which means the ship couldn't have seen it because of the curvature of the Earth.
     
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  19. IdiotBlaster

    IdiotBlaster Banned

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    That's not what I am saying at all. The point is if they had said no to Sentinel Prime he would have known that the Autobots would be fighting back. So he either goes to attack them or he is ready for them to try a sneak attack. If he attacks them then he has lost his fortified position. If at that point the Autobots try to go to Chicago from D.C. they have lost the element of surprise.

    I am going to try to make this clear.

    Regardless of what you think the effectiveness is in the battle, you can't win a modern battle with out controlling the air. You can't bing down heavy enemies without armor.

    Situation A: You can send in armor and air and infantry to attack.

    Situation B: You have a fortified position where you can't achieve air support or send in armor.

    Those are completely different situations that require different solutions.

    It's irrelevant, they wanted a cool looking scene. They could have written it as an artillery piece and it would have made no difference to the story but they chose a destroyer. I don't really care.
     
  20. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Anthony Hopkins with a submachine gun. 'Nuff said!

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    So he either orders Chicago to happen anyway or he...doesn't order Chicago to happen. Either way, the humans are better off because in the first instance, they still have the Autobots to help out, and in the latter, Chicago doesn't happen at all (at least not immediately). Plus, the Decepticons still have the bug watch on Sam who is hanging around all this important shit and discussions so the Decepticons still have a clue what's going on.

    What fortified position? After he steals the pillars back from DC, he doesn't show up in Chicago until the Autobots are all 'dead' and with Megatron. We don't know where Sentinel is between DC and Chicago.

    So maybe instead they just fly to another location like, say, the air base south of Chicago, and attack from there in this scenario where Sentinel attacks Chicago anyway?

    That's funny, it only took two robot midgets to take down the mothership from the inside.

    Or C) you send in spec ops to disrupt shit to give openings. In WWII this was achieved through the French Resistance and special ops paratroopers parachuting in behind enemy lines. Hell, in real life, Operation: Mincemeat only required a corpse and some sleight of hand and it completely screwed over the Nazis, because all it amounted to was dressing up a dead guy and staging it to look like he had drowned after his plane had crashed, and on his person were top secret documents about the invasion of Salonika. The Nazis found the body, read the documents, and bought the ruse - they moved defenses from Sicily over to Salonika. So, when Operation Husky happened, the Nazis were not only weakened at Sicily but for hours after the invasion had begun, kept sending planes over to Salonika because they were still convinced the actual invasion was happening there - Hitler himself sent Rommel to that area to reinforce defenses days later, but by the time the Nazis realized they'd been deceived it was too late and the Allies already had a strong foothold established.

    With Chicago, there is literally an entire network of underground tunnels leading all across the city that the Decepticons can't control because they're too fucking big. You're so obsessed with having the big guns come in immediately when it's so much easier to just send in black ops to fuck with the Decepticons (I mean, going off of the first film, two or three grenades to the crotch is enough to destroy the larger Decepticons). Heavy weapons aren't worth shit if they can't keep down chaos behind them.

    And this is exactly what happens in the film - Epps' team get into the city and are able to get the rocket launcher into position right at the pillar. Hardcore Eddie unfortunately fucks up the shot and only disables the pillar as opposed to actually blowing it up, but Sentinel doesn't even know about the rocket until AFTER it is fired, whereupon Sentinel goes diving after the pillar to try and save it. Had the pillar been destroyed by the rocket, then the Decepticons would immediately lose because they have nothing to defend anymore.

    I mean, you still haven't given any evidence how the Decepticons could actually prevent this if it was a team of highly trained spec ops as opposed to a bunch of dudes Epps got together on a road trip through the midwest. Victory does not need to be a complete rout of the enemy - you just have to make sure the enemy doesn't win. And for the Decepticons, victory is not being marooned in a ruined city with limited supplies and surrounded by building military strength, with their actual leader being a half-dead wuss being treated by an Autobot like his personal bitch as the film so elegantly put it, and the Autobot can't deliver on his promises of a rebuilt cybertron using human labor because the means of accomplishing that got blown up by an RPG when they weren't looking.

    Not to mention there's nothing preventing the US or any other country from launching sub-orbital missiles to destroy pillars that are orbiting the Earth. The system had to have some redunancy built into it in case a few pillars were missing but an active system suddenly losing connections never works quite right and it would really fuck with Sentinel if a few ICBMs caused spacebridge disruptions all across the sphere - after all, how's that Decepticon air superiority over Chicago going to stop Russia from launching missiles?

    So the moment I point out how implausible one of your "Details" is, you immediately use the "rule of cool" defense? And then you basically just say how irrelevant the detail is by pointing out what else it could have been to get the same result?
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2018
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