Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by TFFan01, Oct 6, 2016.
Megatron VS Bullet
Megatron: Bring it!
Bullets Win you Guys!!
Definitely not a stupid idea. It actually kind of fits because Megatron did actually say "You did me great honour tracking that ship to the moon".
Yeah that quote by him almost doesn't make sense in the context of the movie but given this theory that would explain much. You could say that's probably why the decepticon army wasn't brought to Earth as early as the first movie because starscream was the one leading the cons at the time and DOTM made it pretty clear starscream was not apart of the moon plan.
I've just been thinking about all kinds of ways to tie things together. At first I thought it was impossible but there is a way you just gotta think for a minute. Even if the filmmakers were just making it up as they went, within the story itself, the threads can be woven.
Matter of fact, if they made a Megatron spinoff that would be the best way to sow up most of the plot holes given they use their heads.
Oh they indeed can be woven. I have done so multiple times. It's just very complicated. But if they ever actually fully explained it. Aka retconned it with whatever explanation they make. It would be extremely interesting, I'd watch that film in a heartbeat.
Kruger for you. But yes they can be tied together with a bit of thought. - But they shouldn't needed to be lol.
Things I hope the writers room and other writers would/will take into consideration in spin offs and prequels is linking them to the original trilogy's events.
I can't imagine a human weapon made of Energon.
If people had a grasp of how insanely powerful our military's ordinance is, it's no surprise that they'd be hurt by our weapons. Though named characters like Optimus and Megatron are insanely durable for the Bayformers verse. Examples for both:
- Survives impact onto earth's surface from space
-Flies through an entire building with Optimus in-tow
-Falls from the roof of a skyscraper, smashes head first onto the road below and proceeds to get up and fight moments later.
- Survives a bombing run from F-22 Raptors (the most advanced and powerful fighter at the time) with little to no visible damage.
- In ROTF he's shot repeatedly with 90mm anti-tank cartridges from an M1 Abrams without significant damage.
- In ROTF he is in the epicenter of an air strike from the Air Force involving 2000lbs JDAAMs (Which are ludicrously high explosives). These bombs fail to visibly harm him.
- He survives having half his face blown off, and still attempts to shoot Optimus before having his arm severed, then sent flying through a huge stone wall.
Barring catastrophic damage such as his own gun or Optimus's backpack cannons, Megatron in the Bayverse is extremely hard to put down.
- Survives being smashed into a building and then flown clean through another by Megatron.
- Survives a chest-shot from Megatron's fusion cannon and being flung into a building.
- Survives falling from a skyscraper and smashing into the street below. After talking to Sam briefly he gets back up and is ready to fight.
- Survives a devastating shot from Megatron's fusion cannon in ROTF (Which got notably stronger) as well as being beaten on by 3 other Decepticons. He's roughed up, but this is in no way a sign of fragility on his part. Megatron and Starscream are just THAT strong, and feats from the films prove it.
- In DOTM he flies through the Driller and kills it.
There's probably more for Optimus that I'm not remembering. As for when we see parts flying off of them when they take damage, it's really not all that significant seeing as there's no visible damage whatsoever so whatever "damage" was done s negligible. This is also considering that in the first film, Transformium is stated to be able to regenerate at a molecular level. Presumably this means that they can heal minor wounds quickly, and missing limbs and such take longer, as with Scorponok.
Also Transformers have been harmed by human weaponry in other continuities, this is hardly unique to the Bayformers universe. In All Hail Megatron, this one Decepticon is hurt by a hand-held rocket launcher and actually yells out in pain because of it. Also Scrapper had his face melted off by an acidic substance which Spike literally says is made from "household items".
It's 120MM actually.
I feel like you got that list of feats from somewhere...notably me hahaha. Because I remember a long time ago I typed out the exact same list of feats in almost the same exact order which was about The Bayverse Durability factor.
Not saying you're wrong, because I agree wholeheartedly with your statement .
Yeah I agree. People treat Bayformers like they're tinfoil compared to other continuities.
* Marvel comics Transformers aren't indestructable gods people say, I constantly see the scan from the first miniseries where the army fails to make a dent on Megatron. Yet, in Robot Master issue, Autobots (including Optimus Prime) were clearly damaged by human weapons. It was also stated that Shockwave's armor was pierced by human surface to air harpoons.
* In another issue, G1 Skids' window was easily crashed by a pipe weld by a human (which made him go offline for a short time), unlike Bayformers Blackout were the bullets failed to even make a dent on his windows.
* IDW Scrapper was impaled by steel beams.
* Decepticons were beaten by dinosaurs from the past (not Dinobots, literally dinosaurs)
* Canadian army tanks was able to damage Dreamwave Autobots (at least the G1 carbots).
* Marvel Autobots' armor could be pierced by acetylene (ref; Marvel #21)
BTW, Bayformers can survive the pressure of the deepest places in the world, even the tiny Scalpel.
And the feats you and I listed are only the movies, there are many more in the tie-in material.
For example, according to the Movie Universe book, Optimus shoots 3, 000 lbs of TNT, Megatron and Starscream took several shots.
The only reason people see Bayformers as weak is because military factor is more present in here than the other universes, meaning TFs are more frequently killed by humans here.
Probably coincidence, since I pulled these from a more in-depth analysis of durability feats I posted on another site.
The same book also reveals that Blackout is lightly armored and was never meant to be a damage sponge, so the whole "Blackout is an example of how fragile they are!" argument people like to use doesn't work.
Then there's the factor of weapons and overall strength, in which Bayformers are also pretty impressive. Blackout's various energy attacks which range from that spherical energy bubble to the utterly insane wave-like blast that wipes out entire swaths of a military base and eviscerates C-17 planes. Also ROTF Megatron shoulder checked a submarine so hard that he launched it out of the water. When you consider the submarine's mass and water displacement, that is a mind-boggling feat of strength. Also Optimus Prime backhanding the 800 ton Grimlock was impressive as well.
The problem is that what seems like the most powerful ordinance of the time ends up as almost useless compared to what gets invented later on that humans couldn't have imagined at the time. It means that the back and forth between protection and damage is always shifting back and forth.
At one point the stone wall seemed like the ultimate protection. Then someone came up with the trebuchet and the old stone walls weren't good enough any more. It seemed like the age of fortifications was dead until someone discovered how to make a better wall. Then gun powder came along and it seemed like it was the end of fortifications again. Better fortifications were invented only to have the airplane and bombing to come along. Okay reinforced concrete. Okay I'll see your reinforced concrete with the bunker buster bomb. People in the age of the long bow never would have imagined something like the Cheyenne Mountain Complex.
Or take ships in the age of sail it seemed like nothing would ever beat oak for ship building. Then the American Civil War and the iron clads comes along and the race between armor and weapons to beat that armor heats up. The fleets of the Napoleonic Wars were the most powerful the world had seen at the time but they are nothing compared to the power and armor of the modern battle fleets.
While our weapons seem insanely powerful 100 years from now they will seem like tinker toys compared the armor of the future. Now imagine what armor would be like if we manage to stick around as a species as long as the Transformers.
You forgot to take in the fact that TRANSFORMERS REGENERATE (some faster than others)
say im crazy but i actually think transformer metal has cells in them just like humans except gears and wires and alloy opposted to fleshy humans, and can regenerate itself, or "Heal" just like we heal
All technology was made from studying Megatron all of it was reversed engineered from him, including our military weapons. We've also been fighting them for ages, they may improve but they can't change their weaknesses in their bodies or what their eyes are made of. Our weapons can kill them if we choose the right target. We kill them by being smart. In raw power we could never win against them, the only reason humanity can fight transformers at all is because we're smart unfortunately so are the decepticons. Bay is actually showing you a battle with strategy and tactics.
The decepticons use their numbers to force the Autobots to spread out making it easier to pick them off. They raise the bridges to cut them off from their allies and make it harder for reinforcements to reach them. They target the building rather than the people in it, since if the building falls their plan is stopped dead in their tracks. They take optimus's flight tech to lure him away from the Autobots. The strategy worked they would've won if not for wheelie and brains. The military can't just charge in either. We can't get in the city due to our jets being detected, we have to wingsuit in. We can't get across the river, we need to have someone on the outside hack into the bridge. We can't take the cons head on, we need to use snipers to target their eyes and use smaller weapons to jack up their circuits disorienting them, while parachutes from our soldiers blind and distract them allowing our forces to ambush them.
Morshower getting permission to get a visual saved the planet. The military were completely outgunned, the pillars served as cover for the cons that the small force couldn't penetrate they also completely boxed the military in making it impossible for them to escape. The location of battle was ingenious, without reinforcements no way Nest could win, they were sitting ducks.
This is why I like the decepticons be weak enough for humans to kill them, it means they can't just charge in guns blazing; they have to be smart and to counter them we have to be smart or they'll slaughter us. This results in battles where both use strategy and tactics that each side tries to counter, making the battles very intriguing to watch.
Yeah, exactly. It amazes me how people can go on about how impressive our offensive abilities are, while talking about aliens that have been at war for thousands of years, who are capable of easy space travel. I mean, for the TF, the latest tech is the ability to move a planet. And that's just transportation. Imagine what thousands of years of war would drive that race to create, in terms of weapons and defenses.
Yet S7 didn't have fusion cannons or space travel so clearly they had barely even begun to scratch the surface of what they could've potentially learned from Megatron, leaving the Decepticons with what should be a huge technological advantage. Plus, Transformers can, in fact, change their bodies at will. It's kinda in their name and in the movies, it goes far beyond most continuities. They can grow new parts every time they rescan, they can drop off parts when reverting to protoform. They're made of programmable matter, for Pete's sake. They absolutely can change the weaknesses of their bodies.
But every war is fought with tactics. You can get tactics in any old war story. What's the point of giant robots if they're so easy to defeat? And for all their tactics, the Decepticons weren't able to do more than delay the Autobots. With an entire army of soldiers, fighter craft, giant space ships and a tentacle monster locking down a city, the Decepticons lost to some human foot soldiers and 11 Autobots and were only able to kill, like five humans and an old scientist Autobot, while losing their entire army. There is no way to spin that so it doesn't look like one of the biggest embarrassments the Decepticons have suffered in the 30+ year history of the franchise. Their tactics were catastrophic disasters and their soldiers were inept to the point that I'm half convinced they were trying to commit mass suicide.
The Decepticons didn't once use any of those giant space ships throughout the entire battle. Their fighter craft were barely able to damage Optimus Prime, despite human jets decimating their own forces in ROTF. The Driller was practically useless. All it did was finish off a building that the fighter craft did half the work of bringing down, then died pitifully from Optimus. Shockwave manages to take out Optimus, then leaves without even bothering to check if he was really dead. Then later a group of spread out Decepticons suddenly line up for Optimus to fly in and 1-hit-kil all of them. Soundwave's forces for whatever reason took prisoners. Wheelie and Brains (ROTF having proven the former is inept at stealth) were somehow able to sneak onto a ship without being seen by anyone and destroyed the ships engines, after that one specific ship they were on conveniently happened to fly over where the 'Bots were being executed, just in time to save them, because plot convenience. Soundwave is for some reason leading a battle, instead of making sure nobodies hacking into his bridges, since that sort of thing is what he specializes in, not battles, evidenced by how pathetically he died. All of the Decepticons died pathetically. No matter how good your tactics are, if your army is utterly incapable of combat, you have no chance of winning. ARRRRGH!!! The entire battle of Chicago pisses me off. It's one of the most poorly constructed sequences to come out of Transformers.
Nice job ignoring everything I said, they didn't delay them they would've killed them, all of them. When Optimus is shot down he falls through a building out the other side Shockwave has to get there he can't finish him he isn't in his sights anymore. The military lose almost everyone there's barely anyone left. Trucks are blown to pieces, sky vehicles taken out in droves, soldiers die throughout, look at how many show up then count how many are left. Bumblebee was faster than Soundwave, if you can't catch your opponent whatever skill you have doesn't matter. The cons aren't standing around when optimus kills them. Here's the real facts instead of the ones you made up in your head.
The cons are shooting at the Autobots you see them doing so, you even see them taking cover. When Optimus swoops in you get a wide shot showing the cons engaging Autobots long distance which is why Prime can kill them so quickly they're occupied. The Chicago you're talking about doesn't exist it's in your head. The real Chicago has the decepticons thin the Autobots out, stop the humans plan dead in it's tracks, immobilize Optimus, nearly execute all the Autobots, successfully trigger the pillar, and leave optimus inches from death. That's the reality not my fault you didn't see it.
I'm not going through this with you again, how many times did I have to explain Arcee's character development to you in detail only for you to endless go back to the same thing I already addressed. I'm not doing it again here just like I'm not explaining the importance of Galvatron again because he didn't kick enough butt, which once again I had to spell out repeatedly. I'm not spelling out another thing I'm not going in circles with you again, answering the same question over and over again because you don't like my answer. I'm not pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of your perspective again. I'm not debating with people who clearly don't pay attention.
Hopefully TLK explains why they keep coming, go back and watch ROTF and don't zone out this time. There's no main narrative watch the human transformer plot and see how wrong you are. No character development, actually pay attention and you'll see that's wrong. They need to give the robots their own story beyond the humans, watch Age and Dark preferably while you're not texting. I'm at my limit with you people, I'm done holding your hand, you want answers watch the movie and pay attention, don't cover your ears going la la I'm not listening everytime a robot isn't onscreen. I'm not debating with people who didn't pay attention, it's a waste of my time.
Who's ignoring who here? The main point I was making is "could've, would've, should've". Regardless of how close to victory the Decepticons may have gotten, the outcome was still worse than almost all other 'Bot/'Con conflicts in Transformers. That is the reality and you can't blame me for seeing it. My other point is that brute force should be a large part of the Decepticons, considering tactics can be found in almost any war story but Transformers is one of the few that has giant robots. And for the two arguments I made that you actually came anywhere close to addressing, the Decepticons in the overhead shot are more spread out than they are in the close up. It really looks like most of them run up to Optimus, who somehow is able to kill every last one of them in 1 or 2 hits, even though some of them are as big, if not bigger than him and should be as durable. Bee may have bee faster but why was Soundwave in that battle in the first place. Plus, Bee even stops to kill another 'Con in the middle of the fight and Soundwave is somehow unable to take advantage of that distraction. Soundwave's not that much bigger than Bee. Why is he that slow?
Except that's not how the Arcee debate went. You were claiming things didn't need to happen when they clearly did. At the end of the discussion, you argued that Arcee simply acting different is proof of her character development, to which I countered that the change in her situation was what resulted in her acting differently and that if her situation reverted, her actions would too, which means she didn't develop. Just because you perceive something in a certain way, that doesn't make it right. Your arguments were unsubstantiated claims and excuses for lazy writing, while most of what you said here is just reiterating your opinion without addressing my arguments, so you can't blame others for your inability to win an argument.
I'm not even certain what you're going on about here. Are you talking about specific arguments you've had with me? If so, could you link me to them? If not, then what relevance does it hold to our discussion?
I'm not stating my opinion I'm stating facts read what I say none of it is my opinion, it's details from the films and shows. Yours was a rant making everything sound as bad as possible to better fit your view. I would normally ask you to reread the Arcee thing but that's a waste of time. I mentioned her growth the only reason you didn't see it was because you refused to go beyond that one episode. I gave you examples you refused to see them. That's how our debates go every time. They go nowhere because you refuse to move it beyond whatever issue you're ranting about no matter how many times I address it.
They're not perfect I know this, there are some plot convenience, and a some moments of poor planning. What separates me from almost everyone here is I realize those things happen. You mention the convenience of the ship flying over the execution area, yes that is convenient, you wanna know something equally convenient, the chitauri all shutting down when their command ship was blown up, the death star having an isolated weak point literally designed into it, that's convenient, don't count Rogue one it wouldn't be till like forty years before it was addressed, it wasn't planned. Convenience happens the difference is it's okay when it's every other villain but not the cons.
Chicago is no different from the countless defeats every other villain suffers. The Empire kills a few X wings they lose an entire space station and who knows how many men. They lose even more in Return of the Jedi. I've said this a million times but you don't listen, The Empire can be wiped out, Hydra can be wiped out, the chitauri can be wiped out, but when it's the decepticons it's bad. The examples I named people will acknowledge their accomplishments the fact that they come close to winning but with the cons those accomplishments apparently don't count because they lose in the end even though that doesn't apply to literally every other villain.
It's blatantly hypocritical and you aren't even willing to admit it. I'm tired of debating with hypocrites who do nothing but distort things and exaggerate and exaggerate blowing things out of proportion making everything sound worse than it actually is. Do you know the last time I saw a complaint that wasn't a ridiculous exaggeration or blatantly hypocritical I can't even recall. The worst part you won't admit it. You people refuse to move forward, debates are useless because you refuse to move beyond whatever you're ranting about regardless of how many times it's addressed to you.
I wish they had put as much thought into the story as the fans do.
Having some questions unanswered can be interesting.. but having a series of movies that seemingly makes it up as they go is rather annoying.
After the success of the first movie they should've realized this was a worthwhile franchise. But they didn't. They had no plans for the future based on what has happened in the past.
It's a shame. And worst of all, the most important characters in these movies have been the humans. I'm sick of the robots in the background. I mean, we know more about the humans in these movies than the actual transformers. Isn't that getting old?
They've introduced some neat concepts for plots, but they never really seem to come together.
I keep harping on this point, but I can't help but point it out when these movies are debated. It's difficult for me to think of smaller problems when there's one huge obvious problem that I just can't overlook.
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