Transformers timeline & cotinuity FAQ.

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by bhayes1, Jul 19, 2009.

  1. bhayes1

    bhayes1 Member

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    hello all im new to this board. and basically i have a few questions about g1 transformers and beast machines and some definition of terms.

    recently i have been at the transformers wiki database and i now realize that there are serveral continuities of transformers.

    US animated g1 timeline

    Marvel comic timeline

    beast era timeline (which is based of the comic continuity)

    japanese beast era animated timeline

    japanese animated g1 timeline (headmasters etc.,)

    in the animated series there is no mention of sparks or primus. the quintessons made the transformers.

    the whole primus and unicron thing is confusing. to further complicate things is the Oracle and cybertron having an organic core.

    in the cartoon unicron was made by an ape-like mutant called primacon and the oracle was the assistant to the ape-mutant.

    transformers wiki does a decent job of explaining it though.

    Organic core - Transformers Wiki - Transformers 2, Animated, Toys

    then there is the "the first robots that came to cybertron had to learn how to transform" makes the timeline more complicated.

    then there is the oracle which there are several explanations for in the wiki

    http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Oracle_(G1)


    and lastly the "de-evolving" of primal in beast machines. bwtf.com did have an explanation but i forgout what it was.

    so we have The Matrix, The All Spark, Spark, Primus, Quintessons, Unicron,The Oracle and Cybertron having an organic core.

    and i see that there was a mini comic series that continues the story after beast machines too. it would be nice if it got animated with the orginal cast. where primal is brought back from the dead by primus.

    personally i think that somebody should take the dialogue from beast wars beast machines, g1 cartoon, and the marvel comics and create a timeline guide to make sense out of all of it.

    this guy at imdb.com gives a good explanation.

    IMDb :: Boards :: "Beast Machines: Transformers" (1999) :: Beast Machines - The Greatest Transform...

    but i can sort of understand why some don't like beast machines. i personally think its a great FINAL chapter to the beast era that begins with season 1.

    i read somewhere in the wiki that the quintessons where in league with unicron and the quintessions turned a natrual earth-like planet into cybertron. this would tie in the cartoon series but then where would primus fit in?

    you see the whole backstroy to g1 & beast wars is so convoluted and complicated that the average viewer will not get it.
     
  2. Chris McFeely

    Chris McFeely Well-Known Member

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    Well, first off, you're reading the wrong wiki - that's the old one. The actual community moved a while back - that old one still exists, and is still edited, but the "real" wiki has nearly two thousand more pages, and many hundreds more in a much better state of detail and completion. Click here for the right one! You may learn more!

    Second, if you want a timeline that tries its hardest to make sense out of everything in the G1 cartoon and Beast Machines, Takara took a crack at it a few years ago and produced a monster of a chronology. You can read that here.
     
  3. GrandMaXimus

    GrandMaXimus Party in my tummy!!! TFW2005 Supporter

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    Oh man..that was some reading...buggy eyes...mushy brain on the Takara chronology.....i need a beer....
     
  4. ginrai

    ginrai lost with no way home.

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    Don't normally " Fix " other peoples posts (So Apologies in Advance).. but I felt you set this up so well i needed to..
     
  5. Victory Leo

    Victory Leo Well-Known Member

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    Plus there is the IDW comic G1 timeline, the Dreamwave G1 timeline, and then weird things like the story books, some of which don't fit in any timeline.

    Victory Leo
     
  6. bhayes1

    bhayes1 Member

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    Thanks Chris

    wow. that helps alot. now it all makes sense. thank you.

    just a question. what's the 411 on beast machines?

    do the trans geeks really hate it or no? i personally think its a the greatest saga and it brings beast wars to an epic finish. i can understand people creatively disliking it but why that hatred?

    i love it! i have yet to see a transformer story that surpasses beast era shows. except for the live action movies.

    RID, Aramada & Energon and the current series Animated are all kiddie fied shows. Armada & Energon could have been great shows had the right types of people been involved in the writing and animation. but the business side of things didn't worked out and it all went down the tube quality wise.


    and RID (carbots) looks beautiful but its just too FLUFFY compared to beast wars as far as dialogue goes.

    but thanks chris!


    one last question about the TAKARA timeline explanation. which explain everything.

    optimus primal de-evoling to orignal beast mode. and primus. takara's timeline doesnt mention primus. but they talk about primus all the time.
     
  7. Chris McFeely

    Chris McFeely Well-Known Member

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    Quite welcome! As far as Beast Machines goes, there was a LOT of negative response to it back when it aired originally, based around what the show did with the BW characters and the mythos in general. Since then, though, I think opinions have turned around on the show for the most part - while there are people who still don't like it, after having to suffer through *years* of objectively *dreadful* cartoons, many people look back on it more favourably these days.
     
  8. bhayes1

    bhayes1 Member

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    what about the primus god of all sparks fitting in with the takara timeline and the optimus primal de evolving to season 1 best mode in "the reformatting"
     
  9. Victory Leo

    Victory Leo Well-Known Member

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    Primus ...

    If you look at the Takara timeline there is no mention of Primus. The origin of the Cyberton is different then the comics which takes the approach the Primus and Unicron were ... well more or less gods of opposite flavors, one good, one evil, one wanting to destroy the universe, the other protect it. Primus won against Unicron by luring their energy forms in inert astroids and trapping them there. However, Unicron reshaped his into the form we know, Primus instead invested his energy into creating a new race through which to explore the universe and defend it against Unicron, the Transformers (or Cybertronians or Children of Primus).

    So the Beast Wars era are based loosely off the comics and the show (Beast Wars itself is more comic book centered with the potential origin of the Vox tied to the Swarm from the G2 comic, Beast Machines is more G1 cartoon based with things like the Plasma Energy Chamber) plus the writers wanted something to say like "By God" so "By Primus" was created. However, Primus is not part of the G1 cartoon continuity ... by Takara standards. If you go by the ideas from TF Universe Primus does exist in G1 cartoon continuity, but again like the Takara timeline it takes alot of explaining.

    So basically Primus is not in the Takara timeline, and in the dub of Beast Wars in Japanese Primus is not mentioned (I haven't watched Beast Machines in Japanese) as far as I remember. Also remember the Japanese Beast Wars is far sillier at times ... Convoy spends episodes hunting for bananas (which is done by creating clips shows that are very ... amusing.)

    Any more questions?

    Victory Leo
     
  10. Chris McFeely

    Chris McFeely Well-Known Member

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    At the risk of shattering your brain - the Kiss Players radio drama established that yes, Primus DOES exist in the Takara universe. He's the Oracle/Primacron's assistant/Vector Sigma. As such, the origin comes out the same in the wash - following a battle with Unicron which he lost, Primus's power is responsible for transforming a planet into Cybertron.

    Here he is getting chummy with the Kiss Players:

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Victory Leo

    Victory Leo Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't shatter my brain ... might shatter bhayes 1's brain though ... so much contradiction!

    However I'm going out here on a limb Chris and say that the "Kiss Primus" is not used or the same as the G1 comic Primus correct? In the comics Primus is Cybertron, or the heart of, and in some approaches he does use Vector Sigma to interact with the Transformers, but it is hard to imagine him being an ... assistant.

    Victory Leo
     
  12. Chris McFeely

    Chris McFeely Well-Known Member

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    Well, he's Primus, mortal enemy of Unicron (he appears in Kiss Players to stop Unicron's rebirth, see), creator of the Transformers and Cybertron, who dwells at the planet's core and looks like Rodimus Prime. He's basically the same guy - just this universe's iteration of him. This is a universe in which Unicron is created by a monkey-fish, after all!
     
  13. Victory Leo

    Victory Leo Well-Known Member

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    So he looks like Rodimus Prime (Rodimus Convoy)? ^_-

    But the use is not quite the same it seems. Sounds more like the Japanese creators are shoehorning Primus in there ...

    The G1 continuities, comic wise (Dreamwave and Marvel, anything by Furman) establish that Primus is ... well the Transformers god, and Beast Wars use seems to support this. If anything, Primus acts through Primacron/Oracle and gives them orders ... comic wise.

    However, the use of Primus in the Beast Wars series doesn't seem essential, everything can just be assigned to the Oracle/Primacron, even the Universe comic stuff (since the Oracle/Vector Sigma is what is mentioned most). Now though I don't have the time to go back and re-watch all of Beast Wars in Japanese so does anyone remember if they actually say Primus in the show? Or Beast Machines?

    BTW, Chris always great to get feedback from a continuity guru who can give me a run for my money. Loved your commentaries on the dvds in the past.

    Victory Leo
     
  14. Chris McFeely

    Chris McFeely Well-Known Member

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    Yah, his appearance in Kiss Players was based on the Primus toy that was available as a contest prize through the Transformers: Generations book a few years back. That figure was a golden-chromed Rodimus Prime toy (in reference to the fact that Primus looked like Rodimus in the UK comics), so Primus in this story looks like a giant Rodimus Prime. Complete with winnebago mode and all, as you can see in the pic above!

    I quite agree with you that this is blatant shoe-horning of Primus into the cartoon universe by Japanese creators. But he's still a "god" to the Transformers here, because he's responsible for giving them life. It's noted in the timeline that that's a special power of the Oracle's - the ability to create life, which is why Primacron had him for an assistant, since that was a handy power to have for a guy like him. He's also able to travel through time and space at will, as he does in the course of the Kiss Players storyline, and he pwns Unicron with a giant cosmic laser gun and is able to seal his lifeforce within the Earth. Overall, he's a pretty godly sort of guy!

    I don't know about in Japanese, but Primus is mentioned by name in the English version of Beast Wars, in righteous invocation. He wasn't name-dropped in Beast Machines, though. But then, the Beast Machines-related comics released through BotCon tied Primus to Vector Sigma and the Oracle computer, and I think that this retcon was very deliberately exploiting that fact to connect the NEW Oracle to the ORIGINAL Oracle (that was the name of Primacron's assistant in the script for "Call of the Primitives") and to tie them all together even tighter.
     
  15. Victory Leo

    Victory Leo Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Though books such as the Ultimate Guide further establish that Primus also created the Transformers for several reasons, exploration and to defend against the return of Unicron.

    What you said above though Chris ... is almost too cute for words .... and so Japanese... (Tottemo kawai!!!) (No disrespect meant to you Chris ... it's just so ... Japanese ...)

    However this part kind of throws me:

    "he's still a "god" to the Transformers here, because he's responsible for giving them life. It's noted in the timeline that that's a special power of the Oracle's - the ability to create life, which is why Primacron had him for an assistant, since that was a handy power to have for a guy like him. He's also able to travel through time and space at will, as he does in the course of the Kiss Players storyline. Overall, he's a pretty godly sort of guy!"

    So Primus is then the Oracle in the Japanese timeline, or is Primacron? Or do they both act through the Oracle ... or I am totally misreading all of it?

    Right now it seems most beliveable that Primacron created Unicron, Primus created "birthed" the Transformers, and they both worked together.

    Victory Leo
     
  16. Chris McFeely

    Chris McFeely Well-Known Member

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    Primacron doesn't seem to have anything to do with it. He created both Primus and Unicron in this universe, and Primus is the assistant (called "The Oracle" in the scripts), Vector Sigma and the Oracle computer from Beast Machines all at once. Primacron doesn't seem to have done anything else, except create Tornedron in season 3.

    (Personally, to keep it in-line with the whole multiversal thing, I like to imagine that in this universe, Primacron merely created their BODIES, and that their essences/lifeforces/sparks/whatever then took over them, and things went from there.)
     
  17. Victory Leo

    Victory Leo Well-Known Member

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    Okay now I get it! (I think the "assistant" idea threw me as in them "working together" with this explanation makes it seem more like "following in the footsteps idea" which fits better.)

    I agree with you on the body idea, you could almost take it further if you took the idea from the UK G1 comics that the "bodies" (astroids) are supposed to be prisons and Primacron built them to serve that function, but Unicron changed his "prison". Just a thought.

    This all fits now, even with the Universe comics, with Primus acting through the Oracle to guide the Transformers, both in Beast Wars (in some way), Beast Machines, and Universe, which fits all together with the Takara ideas.

    So to recap for those who just want to get the jist: Primacron created Unicron and Primus (in some fashion) and Primus went on to be the creator, life giver, of the Transformers. Primus worked through the Oracle in Beast Machines to guide the Maximals to their destiny (in any timeline) and has the power to travel through time and give life (and his hobbies enjoy getting fresh with young Japanese girls...) ^_-

    Thanks for the addition and ideas Chris. I LOVE debating this kind of stuff. Wish there were more posts like this on the boards!!!

    Victory Leo
     
  18. bhayes1

    bhayes1 Member

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    well Chris Mcfeely & Victory Leo.

    thanks for clearing all that up. at the end of the day the time-lines, comic-verse, G1 cartoon, takara-timeline (headmasters etc.,) & all the names and vocab whether its the oracle, primus, primacon, the matrix, the all matrix, the sparks or whatever. the whole backstory to comic verse, cartoon-verse (japanese or american dub) beast wars/machines is so very convoluted that its downright incomprehensible.

    the orginal G1 cartoon (english dub) was a basic good guy bad guy show like its counterpart GI joe. it was never that complex and there was never any mention of sparks.

    we just had the matrix, autobots, decepticons , humans, cybertron, earth, optimus prime, rodimus prime, unicron, the key to vector sigama

    so i don't understand why people HATE beast machines and saying that there are continuty errors.

    i can somewhat understand the dislike of the "i am transformed" morph. or the new look. i agree that beast machines is like a anime almost. but i always felt that this was a good thing. the show looks cooler and sleeker.

    i always felt that beast wars was good, the dialogue was always very engrossing, and i personally feel that transmetal 2 optimus in robot mode is THE BEST design next to techno-organic optimus and techno-organic cheetor but beast wars overall especially in season 1 the robot modes and transformations always felt alittle too CLUNKY and semi ugly to me.

    so when it was on the air back in the 90's beast wars was always alittle bizzare to me and the whole protoform-spark thing always confused the hell out of me. but looking at it now in 2009 beast wars is a brilliant sci-fi epic CGI cartoon. its also a very mature show too. i love how each season our heros get new more powerful bodies.

    so i always felt that beast machines fixed the CLUNKY element that beast wars had by making everything SLEEKER. i mean how can you not like techno organic cheetor and optimus.

    the techno organic raptrap is not as bad as everyone made it out to be. i love those wheel legs.

    but back to timelines its too much of a headache. but i will say this. tf fans were way TOO HARD on bob skir. the story editor behind beast machines. i mean look at the how bad the tf shows got after beast machines. i think this has made alot of people come back and give beast machins the credit it has always deserved.

    if you go to his blog website (bobskir.com) which is still up. he intelligently defends his show (beast machines) in face of criticisim of the dialogue about the

    "first robots that came to cybertron had to learn to transform" line
    "the seeds of the future lie buried in the past"
    or the techno organic core of cybertron.

    but honestly the whole tf time line is so darn contradicting and incomprehensible that i don't understand the criticisms. about whether the quintessons created the transformers or whether it was primus or whether cybertron really does have an organic core.

    i mean sure. that writers admit that they are not G1 literate but hey who give a damn. its not like the tf timeline is very comprehensible anyway. there are two timelines. there is the comic-verse and the cartoon-verse. and how many average tf fans really read the comics and understand the whole spark primus thing. i know that i don't read the comics. and beast wars is really based on the comic-verse not the cartoon. which is what many beast machines haters seem to think.



    but thanks fellas for input.

    infact it all makes me wonder how TRANSTECH would have turned out.

    Transtech - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    the idea of G1 optimus prime revived leading a mix of autobots and maximals who all have new technorganic vehicle modes sounds really cool. maybe since all the new shows really suck. maybe it could happen.

    oh well. RID, Armada, Energon & Aniamted are all very retarded fluff but then again hasbro mission is to sell toys not to entertain. so its a money thing.
     
  19. Victory Leo

    Victory Leo Well-Known Member

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    Hey I'm not disagreeing with you in the slightest and I hope Chris and I discussing continuity points didn't throw you out too much ... (sorry if it did.)

    Beast Machines is very enjoyable I feel. I remember living in Japan and downloading episodes to enjoy (it was second season! Had to watch for Silverbolt!)

    Does it have some continuity issues? Well some feel it does because the characters do act a bit different from Beast Wars. Also the original idea that Silverbot was not Jetstorm but was Thrust (instead of Waspinator) causes some confusion. Also the choice to embrace G1 cartoon continuity (the Plasma Energy Chamber, the Key to Vector Sigma) instead of the comic continuity which did not have these elements.

    But Beast Machines has some great story and character elements and has alot of things to enjoy, The end battle was awesome between Megatron and Primal.

    Most fans when it came out just had alot of problems with how different it looked and that the original Beast Wars people weren't working on it. I remember being on the boards when the first complaints trickled (well stormed in) about the theme song (it was really nit picky...)

    Overall, there are worst shows than Beast Machines ...

    Victory Leo
     
  20. Victory Leo

    Victory Leo Well-Known Member

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    Also BHayes 1 if you liked Beast Machines I really recommend checking out the Transformers Universe comics that follow after Beast Machines. Some great stuff there...

    Victory Leo
     

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