transformers and transhumanism

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by GENOZAUR, Dec 30, 2010.

  1. GENOZAUR

    GENOZAUR Banned

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    could one lookm at the transformers mythos as being a possbile way of exploring the concept of transhumanism/transhumanity?

    to be honest i dont got the slightest idea what the proper word would be that i am looking for on the matter

    in the simplest way i can think of to explain it the matter as a concept though

    think of a living person who is entirely nonhuman in thier outward appearance but with that person nonetheless possessing to their being in thier own unique limited way a actual degree and personel sense of humanity nontheless

    in a way i actually think that one could look at the transformers as being a possbile way of exploring the idea through science fiction

    for as outwardly differant as they are from we humans they are every bit as capable of experincing the incredibly myriad range of emotions and sensory touch and living intelligence as well

    in a comparitive manner of speaking i like to think that in their way they are a version of us as a purely technological species counterpart to our own human species
     
  2. Sorrow Six Star

    Sorrow Six Star Close Countach

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    Most sci-fi shows do that.
    Good examples are Klingons and Vulcans, who are like humans but with certain emotions amplified or restricted. You could say that transformers takes this concept to a new level in the sense that they are no longer flash and blood but it's still kind of the same thing.
    Then you have sci fi like the "Alien" movies where the creatures are more like predatory beasts. I don't really care for those as much.
    I also like for transformers to have a humaniod appearance the more "bug like" or claw-handed or chicken legged, the less I care for them.
     
  3. Sorrow Six Star

    Sorrow Six Star Close Countach

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    Wow I really did type "flash and blood" lol I blame my phone XD
     
  4. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    There's a word for it:


    LIFE
     
  5. Gammatron 64

    Gammatron 64 Well-Known Member

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    Its funny you made a post about this. I thought I was the only person who ever thought about transformers and transhumanism. I love transformers, but I'm also a huge hard sci-fi nerd and transhumanism is a favorite subject of mine. I just never posted anything because its a little... strane and out there.

    What is transhumanism? Unless you're a big geek, you probably haven't heard of it. Basically, human evolution into a posthuman, whether it be through genetic engineering, cybernetics, mind uploading, etc. A big staple of the cyberpunk genre. Example: Ghost in the Shell.

    With transformers, its about transitioning from organic life to mechanical. Simon Furman's IDW series actually hinted that the transformers decended from organics! Unfortunately his run was cut short before he could really explore it.

    I've actually had some really cool ideas about an alternate origin story involving a technological singularity. I'm on my phone atm, but I might post a more detailed version later in the fanfic forum.

    The Primacrons were highly advanced organic humanoid lifeforms. They developed 2 sentient AIs: PrImus and UNICRON. Both were more intelligent than the actual Primacrons... a fatal mistake. A computer smarter than a man can build an even smarter computer. UNICRON upgraded itself until it was thousands of times smarter than a man, triggering a technological singularity. Primus and Unicron, by the point of view of a mere man, had ascended to godhood, with technology so advanced it seemed like magic even to the advanced Primacrons.

    Unicron wanted more processing power, and more knowlege. He took over all the nanomachines on planet Primacron. He dissasembled the planet and its inhabitants, and rebuilt it into his new body - a planet sized computer, a matroshika brain. Only a few Primacrons survived, and fled to the Quintessa system (eventually becoming the Quintessons, who like daleks are organic lifeforms so mutated that they need to ride around in mechanical shells)

    Primus was the more benevolent AI, but couldn't save his creators from their demise. He did however manage to scan the brains of all Primacrons into computer data. These uploaded minds would later be known as "sparks" and were stored in the Vector Sigma database. Primus left and built himself into the planet cyberton.

    Primus gave his dead creators new life by transfering their uploaded sparks into artificial bodies - the transformers, however, while they retained their personalities, their memories were lost. When a transformer dies, its spark returns to the allspark - literally all bodiless sparks joined together into one large gestalt conciousness. The spark brings its memories and experiences to the allspark.

    Unicorn desires to assmimilate and destroy all life in the universe and learn all that can be learned, and become the one all powerful god of the void. Only primus and the transformers stand in his way.
     
  6. GENOZAUR

    GENOZAUR Banned

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    so unicron =brinaic cool
     
  7. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    Transhumanism is the philisophical idea that humans are "more" than just sacks of meat compelled by organic impulses, and that as a species or as a social group that we are more than we appear to be when one looks at our current limitations. It's basically the idea that humans can transcend the "human nature" which is inheirant in our biological programming and current social development, and for many it also is a way of approaching the idea that human beings possess a soul or some other aspect of the divine and eternal which allows us to be greater than the boundaries of our physical forms.

    In terms of Transformers, you have the idea of the spark and of Unicron/Primus, you have gestalt entities and plenty of instances where heart/soul/whatever is able to surpass the limitations of the shell. Its a common philosophy to have, especially in optimistic science fiction.

    In terms of ascribing human characterstics to non-human characters or objects, thats anthropomorphization, and is basically essential in fiction to some degree if you want the audience to identify with a non-human character.
     
  8. GENOZAUR

    GENOZAUR Banned

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    yo gammatron heres something to really get your brain stewing on the matter

    all things wether they be technological or biological or organic or nonorganic from all living beings to unliving posess carbon cells in the very submoleculer makeup right?

    there is currently research being done right now to see if it would be possible to create a new kind of circuitry technology from those carbon cells asa way to compress technology to a smaller and smaller level microtechnology /microchip wise

    over time i believe it could very well be possible in its way over a period of time to bring into existance a kind of parisitech nology that incorporates all of that into a form of symbiotic biotechnology that we humans copuld use both asa way to improve our bodies physically and metnally and also use to fine tune our bodies as well asa way to successfully weed out any and all kinds of undesireable genetic birth defects and types of inheritible ill health

    in the long term i believe it might even be possible for we humans to actually use it as a way to in a way use it as a steping ston to successully evolve asa bieng beyond our very human origins

    in a manner of speaking one of us becoming one of them in a way over time
     
  9. Jasbraman

    Jasbraman Eats Igyaks for breakfast

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    Okay, as a genuine scientist, I find your (Genozaur) post to be riddled with scientific inconsistencies. first of all, if you are talking about sub molecular carbon, its carbon atoms not carbon cells. Cells, compared with atoms or even molecules, are HUGE. Cells are made up of carbon containing compounds, not pure carbon. Also, not everything in the universe is carbon based. We don't know this for certain of course, but its unlikely that everything will be based on carbon. Also, why would Transformers be carbon based? they are made out of metal. Anyone who knows anything about chemistry or metallurgy could tell you that a high carbon content in the metal means its either impure, or its very brittle and easy to break. Also, biological and organic, when talking about life in general, are exactly the same thing. Also, that research is in fact a reality. carbon nano tubes/wires are already being used in circuitry, and implanted into people. These chips and things are minute though. I've seen some of them and they are tiny. Also, your post makes absolutely no sense, due to major grammatical errors and terrible spelling.

    Now that thats out of the way...

    Transformers have already been established as being able to feel emotions, to experience physical sensations (Pain etc.) and all that stuff, but they don't have humanity, because they aren't human.
     
  10. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    TFW Science Knights Represent, yo.

    But I don't think you're really going to make a lot of headway pointing out the scientfic inconsistencies in the posts of a user who makes a thread every week about how vegeta is just like ginrai or what have you.


    The term "carbon-based life" refers to all known living things participating in the carbon cycle, where the carbon in their bodies is consumed from other living things, and who in turn die and return the soil as carbon-bearing compounds which plants consume, perpetuating the cycle (this is why living things that died millions of years ago are the sources of current coal and oil deposits, both substances that are predominantly carbon). The majority of the universe around us, however, is made of substances containing no carbon at all, including much of our technology.

    Carbon nanotube wiring is a current area of technological development, and the use of carbon nanotubes could lead to conductive polymers and more efficient / easily applicable solar cells, to say nothing of their structural applications. Carbon nanotubes, however, are still much larger than atoms (each nanotube is made up of dozens if not hundreds of carbon atoms) and are at this point simplistic in their design, so their use in biotechnology on the cellular scale is at this point unlikely, especially since numerous toxic substances are usually required to functionalize the nanotubes.


    Going back to Transhumanism, however, I would say that Transformers embody the philisophical idea far better than humans, or at least far more literally. In most continuities, Transformers are not defined by their physical bodies, which they can change, shed, upgrade, and discard if need be, so long as the core of their being, their spark remains. As transhumanism postulates that human bodies are merely a shell for what truly makes us human (say, for lack of a better term, a soul), this is pretty compatible with not only the ideas of protoforms, spark transfer and immortal sparks, but with transtectors, which can become an extension of a human body (which can already be thought of as an extension of the soul in the idea of transhumanism).
     
  11. GENOZAUR

    GENOZAUR Banned

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    transformers could be seen as being similer to the Borg in thier way then aernaroth?
     
  12. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    No. The borg are a cybernetic race that reproduces by assimilating other sentient creatures. Transformers are a mechanical race that reproduces independently (either through budding or construction or eggs or whatever), and bianary bonding / headmaster transtectors represent something entirely different from borg assimilation, if only because the process is almost always voluntary and involves the organic partner retaining their own sentience and identity to a large degree.

    Also, Transformers are individuals, borgs by and large are not.
     
  13. nemisispringer

    nemisispringer Well-Known Member

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    Well gobots kind of did this didnt they by saying all the gobots used to be people but there brains where transferred into mechanical bodies

    As for the transformers being a human equivalent the one problem i always saw was they where never presented as originating from evalaution within the transformers mythos

    they are more like test tube creations by the quintessons this could ofcourse mean they may have been implanted some kind of biological element or mechanical equvalent

    Or it could have been vector sigma that imbued them with this turning them from simple AI to thinking feeling robots

    Unless you beleive in the unicron/primus origin ofcourse


    Perhaps it is vector sigma that is the evolving entity in that by sending out diffrent personalities into the world int learns diffrent lessons when they perish and re-unite themselves with it making it ever growing in its knowledge

    Bu what is the origin of vector sigma perhaps it was created by the quinttesons who value knowledge but through it knowledge aqqusition it learned of the power of emotions and so went beyond the quinttesons capabilities in theory being the trans-human to there humanity
     
  14. Gammatron 64

    Gammatron 64 Well-Known Member

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    Transhumanism is defined as an international intellectual and cultural movement supporting the use of science and technology to improve human mental and physical characteristics and capacities. The movement regards aspects of the human condition, such as disability, suffering, disease, aging, and involuntary death as unnecessary and undesirable. Transhumanists look to biotechnologies and other emerging technologies for these purposes. Dangers, as well as benefits, are also of concern to the transhumanist movement. (Copied from Wikipedia)

    The Gorlam Prime story arc in Furman's IDW run was about Transhumanism, but this was abandoned and forgotten when Furman got the boot. The people of Gorlam Prime went from organic to mechanical lifeforms.

    As to whether or not the actual Transformers of Cybertron have organic origins, it depends on the continuity, and still it's up for debate. For example, in the G1 cartoon, the Transformers were just robots built by the Quintessons, not evolved from the Quinessons... although the actual nature of the Quints are up to debate. Are the Quints machines? Cyborgs? Weak organic creatures riding in mechs? It's ambiguous.

    The Beast Era had an odd take on this, a kind of "TransTransformerism" (lol) where fully mechanical lifeforms started taking on organic parts.

    Another issue with Transhumanism is how you define human. Human consciousness is located in the brain, and the only surefire way to move it is to move the physical brain. Mind uploading, that is digitizing all the brain's neurons into a computer simulation, isn't so much as moving consciousness as it is copying it. And most of the theoretical ways to "scan" a brain involve its destruction - so for "immortality", you must die. And you are dead, but you have a copy of yourself that lives forever.

    It also brings up interesting philosophical and ethical debates. Is the copy regarded as an individual? How would society value sentient life if there were just data that could be copied, deleted and modified?

    There is an interesting Charles Stross novel called Accelerando that is about a technological singularity, and space explorers are uploaded minds voyaging through space in a ship the size of a coke can, living in a simulated world not unlike what you see in Tron. And the inner solar system is disassembled and reassembled into a huge Dyson Sphere that is essentially a huge computer network running billions of simulated minds in a simulated world while the physical people escape to colonies in the outer solar system.

    Transhumanism is a really far out concept, but it works well with Transformers. A Transformer's memories and personality are merely data, or "Sparks". Vector Sigma \ the Allspark \ the Creation Matrix either creates or takes this data from a database and implants it into the empty shell of a Transformer's body (protoform). When they "die", their spark returns to the Allspark \ Matrix. Thus it makes sense that the Transformer "afterlife" is a computer simulation within Vector Sigma.
     
  15. Thenames9

    Thenames9 D-d-d-d-duel!

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    Autobot X = Spike
     

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