The black transformer doesn't die...Ironhide lived! lol

 

that's not racist at all! there's a bunch of posts in the thread explaining why...but the most pertinent point is that he is a Robot, and has no skin color. so he's not black lol

 

I was just joking.
But I didn't know Bay didn't like Jazz's design. Not that I blame him to be honest. IMO Megatrons design was the worst. I mean Megs was as embarrassment. But I was under the impression Bay approved the designs.

 

It's more the fact that Bay didn't like the size of Jazz rather then the actual design.

Megatron has grown on me a lot. He's pretty menacing looking and I think he holds up well as a cybertronian harbinger of death. And the Leader Megs toy is awesome.

 

There may not be colors among transformers... but Jazz was so obviously "African American" it was ridiculous he hit so many stereotypes there was no way one person in the audience didnt assume he was black, while im sure someone will come out and say "I didnt" ill let you know beforehand that I dont believe you lol. I liked Jazz, i liked his capo-pseudo breakdancing style  

Megs.. I liked his design because it was a Cybertronian design.. he never adopted an earth form.. so whats to hate really?

 

Why does this sort of statement remind me of "Star Wars - The Phantom Menace" all over again.

 

Bull. The movie had an asian character. Unnamed but with a speaking role.

 

hahaha ooooh jarjar.

 

I am sorry, but reading this thread bothers me...I don't think the movie is being at all racist.

The whole argument of the Aussie girl being smart and the Fat Black dude being dumb is completely wrong, so I agree that is smarter than her...nuff said on that part.

Jazz, well Tformers have no race, the way they made Jazz's voice out to be is just by experimenting from learning on the internet...him doing break dancing is just Jazz's character like in G1, so him being black is out of the question...as for him dying, it was merely the whole aspect of just picking who would die...

Look at Blaster from G1, sure he sounded like he was black, and was a radio that enjoyed beats...IT IS A FREAKING CARTOON!

Now look at the Black cousin who looked to be playing DDR, now, I played DDR and happen to know the largest crowd of people who play that is either White or Asian, so that can't be used as an aspect of racism either...

Are people just trying to make arguments about the movie? I swear it seems that way sometimes. Next thing you know they will add Arcee to the sequel and make the movie seem Sexist...

Look at it this way, there are plenty of things that are considered racist...unfortunately I didn't see any in this movie that made it even remotely racist.

 

You know, it's not just people with an agenda who notice these things...

Walking out of Phantom Menace AND Transformers, I was struck by a vague racism in both films. I guess I'm coming out in this thread as one of the ONLY people who half-agrees with the original posting. I don't believe the excerpt is very insightful, but it does touch on something in the film that I felt, and I'm still kind of undecided about.

In the case of both Bay and Lucas, I don't believe there's an agenda to bring anybody down. I don't believe either of them ARE racists. I just find it surprising that they guilelessly default to old race-based cliche characters. In the case of JarJar and Transformers, the use of the "bumbling black clown" as comic relief is a cinematic archtype dating back to the first american films, and vaudeville before it. It's a sort of indirect racism, but it's there, even vestigially.

True, Michael Bay did seem to be taking shots at a variety of social groups, so again, I'm not making a focused accusation against him especially... but the one-two punch of the Bernie Mac and Anthony Edwards characters did kind of leave a bad taste.

For the record, I think Phantom Menace was way worse in it's use of ridiculous aliens to stand in for tired old racist archtypes... but I suppose it's fair to say Lucas was trying to evoke the style of the old-time adventure serials (that made frequent use of such stereotypes). I don't think he chose wisely, but I see where he was coming from at least.

Okay, for everyone arguing about the Jazz thing, using the in-continuity logic that he's an alien robot... get over it. Everybody knows that Jazz is the "black" transformer... that is to say that he's the one based on the "black urban american" template (much as Rumble is the juvie street punk, Ironhide is the cowboy, Outback is the Aussie, and SkyLynx is the tally-ho British cavalier). It's not exactly subtle, and remains un-subtle in the movie. I don't think that his death is racist... I don't even believe that it's a deliberate nod to the convention of the sacrificial black guy in action/horror movies... but in an incidental way, it is sort of funny how nobody seems really all that concerned about his death.  

And yeah... sexism? Well, yeah... that new kind of sexism that says it's okay for a woman to be a smart, kick-ass, independent-type... so long as she's a ridiculous sex-object while she's doing it.   It's the superhero paradox... sure Wonder Woman/Power Girl/Psylocke is tough... but she's also throwing her boobs and a$$ at the viewer constantly (depending on the artist, this can be subtly sexy or downright crass).

Anyway, while this thread is still pretty civil, all things considered, I find it depressing that if someone even opens up the dialog on possible undertones of racism in the movie, the immediate reaction is to shout them down and insult them rather than open a discourse on how some of these things might be perceived.

But then, this IS a Transformers fandom... not a media studies classroom or a coffee house. Everything has it's place I guess. Even more, it's the Movie Discussion forum, so this response generally greets almost any criticism of Bay's film.  

I find it interesting that while as a genre one of Science-Fiction's primary functions is as a metaphor human sociology, presenting essential and timely questions in an abstracted and speculative context... and yet Science-Fiction's fandom is one of the least attuned or willing to look for meaning in their own genre, beyond the most immediate and obvious... presumably because for many, Sci-fi represents an escape fantasy, which should be unburdened with real concerns.

Which I can understand. Sometimes you just want a lightsaber, a blaster and some empowerment... not a sociological study.  

zmog

 

Jazz's only "black" (as in, stereotypically black rap-artist street) lines are "Whats crackin lil bitches?, This looks like a cool place to kick it!, and We rollin!" And even the latter two part could be associated with anyone.

Sure, he was the street-savvy autobot, which in American culture equates to "the black guy," but lets not forget all of his other lines and actions that have nothing to do with that kind of attitude.

Jazz is obviously the "black guy" of the transformers mythos, he always has been, but thats only because of a general cultural attribution. Like some people have said, he doesn't have a "ghetto Louie-Vuitton" print paintjob, with a "pimpslap" launcher, a diamond head crest, and a power cell fueled by malt 40's. Hes a mix of various urban types, and his "blackness" is definitely apparent, but i think in the end people make waaaay too much of a big deal out of the whole thing.

 

I wish people would stop this racism crap! Its sad this is still going on after all these years and all this stupid immigrant crap, it's just ignorant! People are focusing on all the wrong issues! The people that think that way need to know theres a world of oppurtunity out there! I'm tired of the same old argument, Well our people were slaves and society owes us the world! I'm a Native American and the land that was swiped away when the Europeans came over here, I don't cry about it, I don't think anybody owes me a damn thing! I work hard for what I got and I have morals and values that were instilled in me since I was a child and I take those lessons to the heart! I believe I'm a good person when it comes to people, but when people start talking all this nonsense, I tune them out because I don't care about those racism issues! Call me an idiot or whatnot, I stand by what I said!

 

You bring up some interesting points and I can see how someone could come away from those movies thinking as you do. I just think that with Transformers there was good balance across the board and they didn't paint one particular race in one bad stereotypical light. Phantom Menace seemed much worse with it's use of a "black sambo" type of old school character. But even Star Wars managed to bring balance to the force so to speak with Samuel L Jackson as a venerable jedi.

One thing to note, is it still ok to have a character in amovie that fits a racial stereotype on one hand and a non-stereotypical character in the same movie on the other hand to balance it all? Or is the symple fact that you have one character that fits the racism bill enough for someone to call FOUL?

 

Yet Bernie Mac seemed to enjoy embodying that stereotype for a paycheck. Same with the indian phone operator. I still don't think these cliches are ever going to change until people from those communities stop embracing them as a vehicle for commercial success.

Like i said before, there always seems to be someone from the stereotyped group who is willing to rise to the occasion.

 

Folks, it's not as if Transformers has been a PC paradise.

Jazz went from being the virtual second in command in season one to step 'n fetch it comic relief in season two, alongside fellow lawn jockey Blaster.

Casey Kasem quit because of the racist portrayal of Arabs in the series, including naming a country Carbombya.

The Kremzeek episode features a "Ah, soooo" Japanese man that might as well have been voiced by Jerry Lewis.

Michael Bay's "AAAAWWWW DAAAAAAYYYYAAAMMMMM" portrayal of blacks was well known before he took this project. It should be no surprise that TF:TM was full of racial caricatures.

 

Um, right. Those lines certainly weren't there precisely to help portray Jazz as a "black" character type. Not at all. Nosiree...  

This is all very true if you dissect it from a purely analytical standpoint. It's all just associative, since Jazz is a robot, not a giant black man.

But also, you are right when you say that Jazz was obviously the "black guy" of Transformers... that's exactly how he was conceived and portrayed, and how he continues to be portrayed. Let's not try to turn a blind eye to the intent. Jazz is meant to be the "black" Transformer in terms of common (and yes, stereotypical) cultural reference points. Intent counts for a lot here.

Jazz as an "urban black american" cultural equivalent isn't necessarily a racist stereotype or negative thing... any more than Ironhide is a negative image of Texans... but it's definitely part of the character's theme.

I don't believe I'm going overboard in saying that. I don't think that Jazz's death was a racist twist, or even a deliberate joke on the old cliche. But it's kind of funny that it could be seen that way.

Very good. It's good that you tune out anything discussing that racism "nonsense". After all, racism doesn't really exist, right? Especially if it doesn't affect you personally. If we just ignore it, it will all go away. Most of all, we must never, never speak of it or question it!  

Sigh. I understand the backlash against political correctness... I really do. Militant academic leftism can be incredibly tiresome and paranoid. However, it doesn't mean that some of these issues don't still exist and shouldn't be talked about. It's interesting that the generation that seems least concerned with issues of racism, feminism, etc... is the generation that has benefited from the hard work and activism of the previous generation of people for whom these issues weren't abstract and academic, but harsh and very real.

zmog

 

That's a good question... and it's interesting because some of the "racist" stereotypes thrown around in movies are pretty unintentional. Is the balancing act necessary? Is it okay to have the goofy antics of Jar-Jar lampooning the "black clown" racist trope because he's an imaginary alien, if you have a real black man playing a noble upstanding Jedi? Is it okay to have a bunch of Fu Manchu/Ming the Merciless faux-chinese aliens if the rest of your film shows a healthy respect for asian culture and cinematic traditions?

I'd much rather discuss some of those questions than have people insist that there's nothing racist there to begin with.  

Yes, true again. And sometimes people from these communities embrace those cliches precisely because they DO exist as cliches within the communities as well. I have an Indian friend who does a bang-on imitation of the conservative, overly-polite-but-judgmental Indian immigrant, because he recognizes it as a stereotype of his father's generation within his own community. Is it a racial stereotype? Well, sort of... but it's a cultural stereotype too, as recognized by it's own culture.

Is that also how the racial caricatures are viewed in the TF movie, particularly by the actors who portray them? Is it racist if black people aren't offended by it? Interesting question.  

Thank you!

Alright everybody... SIC 'IM!!  

zmog

 

I'm gonna have to meditate on this one. I think we're going to have to come up with a stereotype scale. Jar Jar being at the top and Mace Windu being at the bottom.

Black Stereotype Scale lvls 1 - 10

1 > Jar Jar

2> Wayans Brothers
4> Bernie Mac
5 > Anthony Anderson
6 > Bad Boys


10 > Mace Windu

 

What is Jar Jar a stereotype of again? he doesnt remind me of any kind of person

 

Its the Jar Jar/"Stepin Fetchit," all over again.