TJ Talks Transformers Prime

Discussion in 'Transformers Robots In Disguise / Prime Discussion' started by SaberPrime, Nov 23, 2011.

  1. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    So this is TFW2005 and TJ plugs you guys all the time that's why I'm here. I'm betting you've seen this already. If you haven't here's the link go watch it, I'll wait...

    TJ TV - Taking Revenge on my Childhood: TJ Talks Transformers Prime

    ... You done yet? Good.

    Now I'm making this topic because I like TJ's reviews for two reasons. One they're entertaining to watch. He does a great job of making it interesting even though he's just voicing his own opinion. I find myself watching reviews for things I don't even care about and know nothing about like all his Kamen Rider reviews, I have no idea what he's talking about but I just enjoy the entrainment value. The other reason is because his opinions are usually on par with my own. There are some disagreements mainly with his hate of the Armada toy line. I hate the series but I actually love the toy line. Not really going to fault him for that one because he has pointed out some very valid flaws with the toys. Even so I still had fun with them.

    With that being said TJ pointed out two things that really stuck out. One that I agree with but haven't been able to really explain it too well on the boards and one that I don't agree with and just wanted to voice my own opinion about it.

    The part I agreed with was about the comparison of the Prime Aesthetic to the Movie-verse. When I first saw the designs I hated it because it was a combination of Movie and Animated which I hated both designs. As I've been watching toy reviews I'm finding I'm actually liking more of the designs than hating them. I couldn't explain why I'm liking a design aesthetic that takes from designs I hate. TJ said something that actually articulates into words why the broken up look works for Prime but not for the movies. So I commend TJ there for helping me explain why I'm actually liking the Prime aesthetic.

    Something TJ didn't talk about is the Animated Proportions. Prime has the proportions of Animated but it's not as exaggerated as Animated was. They still have quite large chins but they're more like Animated Megatron. Animated Megatron wasn't as disproportionate as the rest of the cast and because of that I actually liked him more than the rest of the Animated cast. Prime seems to do the same thing where the disproportion is there but not so much that I hate it.

    The part I didn't agree with was the attention to detail he was talking about because that's one of my biggest complaints about Prime. The Transformers don't even have faces. Their "face" is a completely smooth surface with a slit in it for a mouth. That's it, there's no detail there. They don't even have any painted detail, they're just all silver. Optimus Prime and Wheeljack are great examples because they both have mouth plates that come up to cover their faces. Whenever a character's mouth plate has more detail than their actual face, that's a bad thing. A mouth plate is normally just a smooth piece of metal with a few lines etched in it. It would look cool with the helmet of the character but otherwise would be kinda boring to look at. Their faces have even less detail than that.

    I mean if TJ is talking about the over all detail then I can agree with that. But there are things like the faces with no detail at all that don't seem to fit the rest of the design. It's one of the reasons I like the toys but still hate the cartoon because the cartoon you see close ups of the nothingness that is their face. With the toys the face isn't as distracting to the rest of the design. The face is kind of a small detail that you can overlook when you're looking at the overall design but when you're staring at close ups in the cartoon and seeing how the face moves it's distracting as hell. I don't notice the detail that is there when I'm too busy looking at things where there is no detail. Animated, for having really simplified designs with large chins, their faces are more interesting to look at than in Prime.

    This is just my opinion though. I just wanted to get that out there more so because TJ helped me to voice my opinion than to disagree with him on the detail. My gripe with the detail is really quite small compared to the part where I'm actually agreeing with him.
     
  2. kaijuguy19

    kaijuguy19 Keyblade Wielder

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    Well you have a different taste in asthetics and that's fine you've told us your honest thoughts!:)  I on the other hand LOVE the TFP asthetic very much!!!:D  It combined what I like about the Movie and Animated styles and made them into something amazing!!!:bay  On the faces it's a bit understandable but bear in mind that sort of thing happened in the G1 cartoon too where the characters mouth were'nt detailed as well. The TFP designs may work a bit better on 2D like settings but then we wouldn't have the gourgeous details of the settings and such. We all have different opinons and I respect yours even though I very much adore the TFP asthetic!:thumb 
     
  3. seali_me

    seali_me Well-Known Member

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    I came here to see a black dude named TJ. Honestly, I felt gypped when I saw white dude instead.
     
  4. kaijuguy19

    kaijuguy19 Keyblade Wielder

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    Um sorry. We're talking about a different TJ named TJ Omega the host of Plastic Addict and TJ TV. Not the one you're looking for.
     
  5. jgoss

    jgoss transformers fan 4 life

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    i agreed with most of what tj said. like he was saying prime will most likely be his fav by the end of season 2. me prime is slowly becoming my all time fav surpassing g1.
     
  6. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    Well G1 actually did have face detail to an extent. I mean there isn't allot you can do with a face but they could do SOMETHING, ANYTHING. Prime just looks like they didn't even try.

    Ignoring the obvious down fall of there are no noses. G1 actually tried to make characters look like their own character even when they all basically have the same face with the exception of... the exception were characters that always had their face covered or just didn't have a face. But everyone in G1 who had a face, had the SAME face. But they had details that set them apart from other characters. Like the dark eye brows on Megatron or the age lines on characters like Kup and Rodimus Prime. Some characters even had recolored faces. They weren't all the same color. Like just look at the seekers. Some of them share the same exact face which is kinda disappointing both allot of them even the face is recolored to help break them apart just a bit more.

    With Prime, they have different shaped faces but overlooking the shape of their head it's all the same flat surface with no detail and this awkward little line for a mouth. The exceptions being Ratchet who actually has some lines on his face and his helmet even kinda forms a little nose. And then there's Megatron who isn't just a flat face with an awkward little line but there could be mixed feelings about the way his face is. I'm on the side of things where I like Megatron because he's different but the large eye brows bother me and I still don't like the movie style jet alt mode. But I know allot of people are of the opinion that they're like "Why do robots have teeth?" which I kind of understand but it doesn't really bother me and I don't think I would like Megatron at all if he didn't have his scary sharp teeth. You also have Bulkhead and Bumblebee. Bulkhead still has his huge jaw from Animated that moves like a hinged jaw rather than an overly animated mouth which is part of why I like Prime more than Animated. Bumblebee seems to have this permanent mouth plate which I am loving actually. I hated Movie Bumblebee because he didn't have a face but it's not so much that he didn't have a face as much as it looks like exposed parts that would lie under his face. I wanted movie Bumblebee to have his battle mask on all the time. That's kinda how I feel Prime Bumblebee is, a battle mask that is always on rather than just he has no face at all. For all the other characters who have a face I just see them as having the exact same design as Optimus Prime. Like if you look at Wheeljack's face it's the same freaking design as Optimus. It's not even really a design, just a smooth featureless face with a featureless mouth hole. They look different with their mouth plates on but when you see the face there is nothing to see.

    With Prime I would like it better if the mouth plate didn't so much come off but opened up like the Gary Chalk Optimus Primal/Prime. At least if the mouth plate only opens up to show the mouth there's still detail on the face from the left over plate so you're seeing mouth plate which has detail rather than a smooth metal plate with no detail. It's not the slot for the mouth that I find distracting but rather the empty space around it.

    And all of this may just be a result of the fact that there is no nose to break up the face so it really draws more attention to the fact that there is no detail than a bunch of faces that do have a nose to break up the face. That also bothers me about Optimus Prime because there is a bump in his face plate where his nose would be under the plate but there is no nose there so why the bump? Shouldn't his mouth plate also be flat because his face is flat. There's no reason to have a bump for a nose that doesn't exist.

    All that being said I really think TJ was talking about over all detail that I can agree with more. I may just be focusing way too much on the dull looking faces.
     
  7. kaijuguy19

    kaijuguy19 Keyblade Wielder

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    Maybe TJ didn't have time to go more deeper into the details because of the video time limit. I'm really not bothered about the whole detail thing on the face really and honestly while it may look a bit better on paper it also could have ended up much worse so let's be grateful to that. Other than that I REALLY enjoyed TJ's Review on Transformers Prime Season 1! I agree on his thoughts on Arcee and Soundwave and I'm really looking foward to seeing more development from them in Season 2!!! I was surprised when he said he liked Miko of all people! After what he said about the Armada kids I thought he was going to go postal on her! But then when I heard his reason for liking her and accepting what she is I kind of thought differently. Whiel she still gets on my nerves I won't deny that she does have a wonderful sense of spirt and life not to mention fun too and she may actually be a fun person to hang around with if she use her head more. I'm also looking foward to seeing how she may develop in Season 2. Despite our different opinons It's no doubt TFP is fastly becoming popular and gaining more fans! Transformers Prime is also becoming one of my all time favourite Transformers series next to Beast Wars and Animated! I understand TJ's concern about what happened to G I Joe Renegades and his determination to support TFP on the whole. But seeing what Hasbro's plans for the series are with it's own toyline and MMOG and such. I'm having a feeling that Transformers Prime wil be here for a very long time!!!:thumb 
     
  8. MaxxieOD

    MaxxieOD Jazz is my homebot

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    To me...the blander faces causes me to focus more on their eyes. They still have very expressive faces, especially the eyes (which not many other TF series had, except for BW). I think the less-detailed faces just causes less distractions.

    I do agree tho that Prime's face is a bit too bland...but oh well, his eye detail makes up for it to me. (I'm a sucker for robot eyes)

    And why do robots have teeth? Teeth are used in communication as well (not just visually, but teeth help us make sounds too). Plus (going by movie books here) the Transformers do eat metal as a way to make their ammo and such. Need some teeth to chew with!

    I hope Prime sticks around for a while, and I think Hasbro has plans to try and do that...
     
  9. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    That is a possibility. There were flaws with the TJ TV review of Armada that he didn't get into because of time restraints with the episode. I messaged him and talked to him a little bit about it after that episode. And before TJ comes in here and says he has no idea who I am because my user name is different. We talked on YouTube not here, I'm RialVestro.

    Speaking of Armada he mentions Raf's ability to understand Bumblebee and I was expecting a comparison to Armada where the kids can understand the Mini-cons. He probably didn't bring it up because of the time constraints. I do get the feeling that he doesn't like the idea of a human understanding his beeps because Armada did the exact same thing. Though it's not really taken from Armada it's taken from R2-D2 on Star Wars. Everyone can understand that droid in the movies even though he doesn't talk. I don't really feel like it needs to be explained I just think it's playing homage to Star Wars.

    How could it be worse? Well there's movie faces but I hate them for entirely different reasons. Mainly because they look like insects rather than robots or there's something very "Beast Machines" about them. Like Ironhide kinda looks like BM Primal. Allot of the Decepticons look more like insects than robots especially Starscream who looks like Waspinator.

    I had the same thought process on that one. Though I kinda wander what made him change his mind because I'm listening to the first podcast with him on here and he said he hated Miko so at what point in the series did he start liking her. I was the total opposite though I originally liked her but then after being nearly killed and NOT LEARNING ANYTHING from that experience it made me really hate her as the character who never develops any maturity.

    I didn't really feel like even bringing this up because it's such a small detail to focus on. I mean it's a single character that doesn't really hurt or help the series at all. As much as I hate her I wouldn't like the series any more or less if she wasn't in it.
     
  10. StarryAqua

    StarryAqua Former fandom follower

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    Here's my opinion on the show: I LOVE IT!

    TJ seems to agree.

    I'm done.
     
  11. Epsilon

    Epsilon Autobot Archivist

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    ^Agreed. When I first got a glimpse of the TFP character renders, particularly of their faces, my first instinct was to cringe. All that space, and nothing? I remember wincing when I first saw Optimus'; especially because having become acclimated to seeing all the different minutia in the movie-verse Optimus' facade, I found it distinctively jarring to be confronted with the relative absence of any facial detail.

    However, after actually seeing the animation in action, I've not only come to terms with it, but in many ways I prefer this aesthetic to the movie-verse. With such limited facial detail, not only does it place a great emphasis on their eyes--which, I might add are fantastic!--but it also creates a wealth of subtlety. Suddenly, because there is so little, the slightest expressions become that much more poignant; you notice more when Optimus winces, when Ratchet or Arcee frowns or smirks. Its just the small way in which the smooth palette of their faces shift with the expression, the way their eyebrows twitch and their eyes narrow.
    It truly is a highly stylistic--and effectively executed IMO-- demonstration of a minimalistic aesthetic, one that only heightens a character's idiosyncratic tropes. It illustrates, yet again, how this show wants to truly stand on its own and perhaps put an unconventional twist on conventional characters (I'm thinking particularly of Soundwave, another notion that TJ aptly addressed)

    Edit: Plus, another bonus of those stylistic faces, they're probably a world easier to animate, and probably saves time for the TFP crew to work on other aspects of the show, ie: battle scraps and scars on their armor, the reflective and glossiness of the paint and, of course, backgrounds and textures.
     
  12. Cevel

    Cevel Well-Known Member

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    You mean, besides the ones which have all kinds of facial details and/or faces that aren't "just all silver", which is most of them?

    I can see maybe not liking the aesthetic of having no nose, or saying that there's not enough detail, but there is detail there.

    - Megatron has a lot of black, weathered lines around his face and mouth, sharp, pointy teeth, and a square detail on his chin.

    - Optimus has indented spike patterns under his eyes, lines jutting out from his forehead crest thing, and a chin strap design.

    - Starscream has lines that go from the bottom of his eyes to his mouth, and a line from the bottom of the middle of his mouth down to his "goatee". As an aside, he also has red gums (they kinda scare me, actually).

    - Ratchet has the same sort of lines from his eyes to his mouth and a chin strap.

    - Arcee has blue "eyeliner" around her eyes, pronounced lips, and a chin strap.

    - Airachnid has black "eyeliner", black detailing in the shape of fangs under her eyes, pronounced lips with purple "lipstick", and actual fangs in her mouth.

    - Bumblebee may or may not have a mouth (it's hard to tell if that's a shadow or not), huge circular eyes, small lines underneath his eyes and a few around the area where his nose would be, and a strange partial battlemask look around where his mouth would be.

    - Soundwave has a viewscreen for a face. Pretty unique, really.

    - Bulkhead has a huge, bulbous shovel-like chin, lines under his eyes, lines beside his eyes, lines beside where his ears would be, indentation lines on his chin, and a square chin decoration.

    - Breakdown may seem a bit plain at first, but he's the only one on the show with a red face. He has really sharp-looking "cheekbones", too (you could probably cut yourself on those things, man!). And after he got that eyepatch, he became even more unique.

    - Knock Out is also a little smooth in the face, but he's still got a few interesting details. He's the only one on the show with a glossy, white painted face, and he has a tiny red "goatee".

    - Wheeljack may seem a little plain without his facemask, but underneath he has all these deep scars around his mouth and eyes that give him a lot of character. He also has a square chin decoration and recessed eyes.

    - Skyquake even has details! He's got indentation detail around his eyes that makes it look like he's old and/or tired, and he's got this odd cleft chin or double pointed beard look going on.

    So basically what I'm saying is that I don't understand how you can say that the faces are all blank and silver with no detailing. They're anything but! Unless...did you not watch the show in HD?

    As for G1 characters having more details, well...

    [​IMG]

    ...not really, dude.
     
  13. frost_fenix

    frost_fenix Well-Known Member

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    Very observant and detail post you got there, Cevel :thumbs2: 
     
  14. Epsilon

    Epsilon Autobot Archivist

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    ^ This!

    This show was MADE for HD and its the only way to watch it. In short,I don't think that anyone should hate on it until they've seen it in HD, because odds are all the details they're complaining about missing are actually there.
     
  15. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    I do agree that the detail in the eyes is amazing. Actually technically they're optics not eyes. But Beast Machines and the movies also had great looking eyes.

    I don't agree that the lack of face detail draws more attention to the eyes. Actually I feel quite the opposite that the lack of face detail distracts away from the eyes. Like the one character I really notice the eyes on is Bumblebee and he's one the exceptions I mentioned earlier where his face isn't detracting away from the detail on the rest of his design.

    Something else I forgot to mention before when talking about proportions is the eye brows. I think they're part of the reason I like the toys but not the animation models. Because the animation models the eye brows are overly large and again distract away from the actual eyes. In the toys the eye brows aren't as prominent in their head sculpts. Optimus Prime is a great example of this because in the cartoon even though I like him with the face plate because it covers the lack of detail on his face but then he still has giant eye brows that distract me. I don't see the eye brows on the toy, it looks more like what Optimus Prime should be. The same thing with Bumblebee, Cliffjumper, Arcee, and Bulkhead, I'm not seeing the overly large eye brows on their toys.

    Ratchet again is an exception in the eye brows because his seem to represent the crest Ratchet has always had and he looks really well done. I haven't seen his toy yet so I'm not sure if I want it but more than likely I will be getting all of the Autobot cast.

    Deceptions I still don't like as toys because Megatron is still a movie homage, Starscream is still a twig, Soundwave will most likely be the same. Knock Out and Break Down I havn't seen toys for and I don't hate them as much as the other 3 but I don't like them either. As toys they could be on par with the Autobots. Megatron I'm only getting because I collect his name sake whether I like the design or not. I have all 3 movie Megatrons and hate all of them so why stop now?

    Erradicons are the only Prime designs that I liked even before I saw their toys and knew I wanted toys of them. Everyone else I initially hated till I saw the toys.

    I kinda got off on a tangent here but basically I don't really see Prime's eyes because I'm always distracted either by his bland face or his overly large eye brows. Over all I think the combining of movie and animated aesthetics worked allot better than I thought it would. There are still some problems that really bother me, maybe more than they should because most of the problems I still have are small things. Starscream is the one big issue I still have problems with because he's the one character who still has the overly large animated chin and he's too skinny for me to take him seriously as a real threat. That crosses over into his toy that make even his Movie and Animated toys look good to me and I hate all 3 of them. Well movie Starscream with the more G1 head not the actual movie head, that's Waspinator.
     
  16. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    For the record the forehead crest thing is not on his face, it's on his helmet. The face is the part that gets covered up by his mouth plate. If I was talking about his entire HEAD then you could point out stuff on his helmet but sense I'm ONLY referring to his FACE helmet detailing doesn't count.

    Well I don't have an HD Television but I watched most episodes online and my computer does run in HD. There are some details that I didn't notice when I was watching on the air but the details are really small and might as well not be there at all. Referring to Optimus Prime again. I'll show with pictures...

    [​IMG]

    The most prominent feature on his face is the chin strap but most of the shots of him are like this where the only major detail is obstructed by his chest.

    There are other little things sticking out but I don't know what that's even suppose to be. What kinda detail is that when you don't even know what it is that you're looking at.

    [​IMG]

    Animated Optimus Prime is lacking in detail as well but the little detail that is there is very prominent and easily seen from any angle. They gave him a complete face rather than just a slot for his mouth like Gary Chalk had. There's a blue piece on his chin and silver bits around his face that I think are bits of his face plate. He's got that silver nose with the black lines on it. And then the rest of it is just a lighter blue face. There's allot that goes into that face with as simple as it is.

    [​IMG]

    Now there's movie Prime who again has a full face like Animated and Prime but this guy has all kinds of crazy panel lines. I don't really like this face for entirely different reasons. but there is actually detail there. It's not just a blank slate. I kinda hate this one because the nose is too big and the mouth is too low on the face. I do like the idea of the panel lines because it makes it more believable that he can actually emote. When the face is completely solid it kinda takes you out of it a little bit because a solid piece of metal shouldn't be able to flex.

    Part of may actually be that the videos I'm watching online aren't posted in HD so even though my computer is HD it still not going to show in HD. Even if the issue is being caused by the lack of HD I don't feel like that's a real excuse. I mean if the details are so small that that they can't be seen without HD then they're not really even worth mentioning in the first place.

    Like the lines on Ratchet and Starscream's faces are there but really hard to see from certain angles where as the lines on robot faces in G1 can ALWAYS be seen. Plus again, G1 characters have noses. With Prime, HD isn't going to make a nose suddenly appear on their faces. They're still smooth surfaces with no nose. All HD would probably do is make the little lines easier to see so they don't look quite as smooth.
     
  17. kaijuguy19

    kaijuguy19 Keyblade Wielder

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    I'm going to have to agree with you with this Cevel!:thumb  I mean if some people don't like the idea of lack of noses on the Transformers faces due to preference in style that's fine. However why would they even need noses in the first place? They show they can breath in space,possibly underwater too and can be in a cave for days without suffocating! The are alien robotic organisims they are humanoid yes but they don't always need noses to pull that off! Sorry to break it to you but the faces of the TFP characters DO have an amount of detail that is well done in my opinon!:thumb 
     
  18. Cevel

    Cevel Well-Known Member

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    Uh...I was talking about the black lines on his face near his crest, not his crest itself.

    Are you watching them on Youtube? If that's the case, then yeah, you're not watching in HD. And you're watching a really tiny copy.

    The problem with saying that it doesn't count if you have to watch in HD to get a good view of everything is that the Hub itself broadcasts in HD, so that's obviously the format that you're meant to view it in. Otherwise, it's like complaining that an inferior, bootleg-ish copy of a show isn't as detailed or nice looking as the original. To which I can only say: Well, duh.

    Also, even in standard definition, those details are apparent anyway:

    [​IMG]

    The only time those lines can't be seen is when the characters are really, really far away from the camera. And, well, extreme distance obscures details in every cartoon, it doesn't matter if it's made traditionally or in CGI.

    See, it seems to me that your whole complaint really boils down to the fact that they don't have noses. And that's fine, since it just means that the show doesn't suit your aesthetic taste. That's a valid opinion. I just took exception to you claiming that all the faces were completely featureless, when that obviously wasn't the case.

    And, uh...I don't think adding noses to these characters would really work. Someone photoshopped a nose onto Optimus once (I really wish I still had that picture lying around) and it looked awful.
     
  19. kaijuguy19

    kaijuguy19 Keyblade Wielder

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    Yeah adding noses on the TFP Transformers wouldn't look as right as they do now without noses..:sly:  Honestly Saber if you don't like the fact they don't have noses that's fine but it's not really a major deal since it's a different type of aesthitic and while it doesn't suit you it suits the rest of the people who are into the aesthtic just fine! Hasbro's bringing put more veriety of different styles for people to try out nowadys and that doesn't mean the classic style is dead because of it.
     
  20. Kaymac

    Kaymac I'M REALLY FEELIN' IT!

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    Also, the nose adds NOTHING to expression. Expression comes mostly from the mouth, eyes, and brow, as well as angle of the head. Transformers also don't really NEED noses, because they may sense chemicals and smells some other way. I do like it when the helmets form a kind of nose though. Many Animated characters do this.
     

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