This is the way SONIC should be...

Discussion in 'Video Games and Technology' started by strscrm, Feb 6, 2008.

  1. strscrm

    strscrm GAME BOY ETERNITY

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  2. McBradders

    McBradders James Franco Club! Moderator

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    What? It was just clips from existing games with some guys opinions... I want my bandwidth back.
     
  3. TJOmega

    TJOmega The Plastic Addict Content Contributor

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    I really think Sonic did great on his first 3D romp in Sonic Adventure, I just wish they expanded that formula and game style instead of deciding to radically screw with it for every title. I dont want to be forced to play as Tails in a walker mech that he's riding in for no damned reason, I dont want a tandem of three characters at once just to get through areas, I sure as hell dont want another hedgehog... I want the interweaving storylines of each playable character, and I want to play as characters like Rouge for more than 3 stages so she actually shows some depth in abilities, and I want them to focus on a solid 3D game instead of shoehorning in gimmicks.
     
  4. ZeroMayhem

    ZeroMayhem Henshin a Go-Go Baby!

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    Sooooo, Sonic should be the DS games but with CGI cut scenes? How utterly uninsightful.
     
  5. TJOmega

    TJOmega The Plastic Addict Content Contributor

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    In my experience 2D gaming with 3D sprites doesn't work so well on consoles unless it's really innovative, and right now Sonic on DS has that area tied up very nicely for himself. Look at the Megaman X series, it was nice for it to finally go 3D, but it just wasn't the same, it never felt right.
     
  6. Smasher

    Smasher HUNKY BEATS

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    I agree.
    For a game made in 1999 Sonic Adventure stands out pretty well.
    There were some cool sequences, and even though it had been covered greatly in magazines the sequence where Sonic runs away from the orca still stands out as one of my 'wow' moments in gaming.

    It has some issues, sure. I never expected the first game that transitioned the series to 3D to be without issues. I can forgive its issues.

    What I can not forgive is that 10 years later they continue to make games using the same formula and not only have they not addressed the issues of 1999's Sonic Adventure, in many cases the issues have gotten worse.
     
  7. dark_mullet

    dark_mullet Banned

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    Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 were definately the pinnacle of 3-D Sonic. I like 2 better, but much preferred being able to choose between characters instead of having a fast Sonic level, then being thrown into Tails' gameplay.

    But it's like, every Sonic game since (except Sonic Heroes which 100% was crap) has been ALMOST good/great. THere's usually good ideas and such a possibility of it turning out good, but it's as if at the last minute Sonic Team goes "LETS SCREW EVERYTHING UP =D".

    I LIKED the idea of SHadow the Hedgehog. A more mature story, multiple endings, and even though he DID originate from "WE NEED AN EVIL SONIC) I genuinely like the character. But then SOnic Team went "I KNOW LETS PUT IN MOTORCYCLES THAT MOVE SLOWER THAN YOU AND NOT LET YOU AIM WITH THESE GUNS AT ALL AND MAKE IT SO YOU CAN GO A DIFFERENT ROUTE YOU DONT WANT TO JUST BECAUSE YOU ACCIDENTALLY KILL TOO MANY OF ONE THING <3333"

    Sonic the Hedgehog for the PS3/360 also could have been good. I'm still playing it, and going back and forth between love and hate for it, so I still need to beat it. But whenever I'm not in a town and whenever I'm not in one of those "Run Forward Only" stages, I DO like the game. It's like Sonic Adventure again. But then one of those things happen because Sonic Team likes to lose fans. And come on, there are way more cheap deaths in this than there has EVER been in a Sonic game.
     
  8. Smasher

    Smasher HUNKY BEATS

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    You mentioned Sonic Team trying to screw things up.
    Well, in those "Run Forward Only" stages you lose Sonic's ability to change his trajectory in the air.
    Someone at Sonic Team actually thought it would be a good idea for him to only be able to go straight from the point at which he jumped and somebody else approved the idea.
    I think those two individuals are on the "Make Things Worse" team.
     
  9. Prisoner1138

    Prisoner1138 TFW2005 Supporter

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    The guy in this video has what I've been saying for years now about sonic summed up pretty well. 2d gameplay with awesome graphics is what I want on my big ass hdtv. I don't want to have to rely on my DS for every game because the developer feels that I want some huge overblown three dimensional experience in my living room with an immersive and interactive world. If I want to play an elder scrolls game like morrowind or oblivion, I'll go play those games.
     
  10. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    I've said this in a few recent threads, but I'll say it again. Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 had the seeds for a 3-D Sonic experience that could have surpassed all of the 2-D Sonic games. Here are the main problems that have kept that from happening:

    -Some people at Sonic team are missing the point, and not focusing on the core Sonic gameplay that gave SA 1 & 2 their best moments. That doesn't mean such a game can't be done. It means someone is too busy trying to cram in more characters, gameplay styles, and fancy cinematics instead of just making a damn Sonic game.

    -Yuji Naka went away, further damaging Sonic Team's sense of direction. He was a control freak who was obsessed with making sure it was worth making a new game before committing to making it. Every team needs one of those in charge if they're going to keep making great games instead of drivel. He's no Miyamoto, but he's the closest Sonic Team will ever have.

    -Sonic Team has almost never been given the time or resources to actually complete and polish any of their games. That especially includes time for ironing out bugs. The problem was there even in their Genesis games, but is much more problematic for 3-D games than 2-D ones.

    -None of the above three problems are likely to improve and IMO are more likely to get worse as long as Sammy is in charge of Sega. Sammy has and will continue to pressure Sonic Team to churn out Sonic games as fast and as often as possible without regard for quality. I'd assume that's a primary reason Yuji Naka quit, and I don't blame him. Pressure to crank out games was bad enough before Sega's ownership changed.
     
  11. My03Tundra

    My03Tundra LOVES TO EDIT POSTS!!

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    That is pretty much true and how I feel. The first couple of SA games were great. The DS Sonic games are fantastic. The Wii Sonic game was what some call 2.5D, but still was lacking. Sure, tweak it a bit and it could have 3D graphics and 2D control and still rock but Sonic Team was behind it. And you know what? I think the Sonic RPG on DS is likely going to be awesome as it is being done by BioWare. Yes, the same people who did Mass Effect.
     
  12. TJOmega

    TJOmega The Plastic Addict Content Contributor

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    I think another reason for Sonic's slipping is Sega is leaning on the hedgehog's popularity right now and churning out as many games as they can for him. Ever since Sonic Party for Dreamcast you've had spinoffs like Sonic Rivals, Sonic and the Secret Rings, Sonic Battle (great game, BTW), Sonic Riders, Shadow the Hedgehog, Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games, all being produced at the same time as Sonic Advance, Sonic Rush, and Sonic 2006, it's no wonder Sonic Team doesn't have the time or attention to make a solid core franchise game. They need to come back with a game akin to a Sonic Adventure 3, and that's it, let BioWare make their DS offering and give all the other spinoffs a rest for a bit, come back with a rock solid core Sonic title.

    I really think at this rate it would take something dramatic for the Sonic series to regain it's footing as the #2 franchise to Mario. Now that something might be BioWare's Sonic RPG, I'm really eager to see it and being made by someone other than Sonic Team is going to be a much welcome change of pace. The best thing that could happen to Sega really is to change ownership, let Nintendo take it under it's wing as a 2nd party developer like it was rumored oh so long ago, so it has the resources to make a quality game again. And being Nintendo, at least we know they're willing to give a game more time to make sure it was at it's best. Besides, Nintendo knows the popularity of pairing Mario and Sonic after so many years of rivalry, look at the impact adding Sonic to Smash Bros. has had. I'm sure Big N would love to use that more often to their advantage without the legal hoops to jump through.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2008
  13. Smasher

    Smasher HUNKY BEATS

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    While I look at the fact that the horrible Sonic 2006 has been followed up with not-good-but-not-bad Sonic and the Secret Rings and the horrible Sonic Riders Zero Gravity I at least see hope for the future.

    I don't really consider Mario and Sonic Olympic Games to be either a Mario or a Sonic game. It just happens to have those characters. Plus I am one of the few that actually likes that game.

    Sega got Bioware, one of the most repected names in the industry to make the Sonic RPG. Further, they appear to be giving Bioware the creative license and most importantly the time to make the game right.

    That shows me someone at Sega is listening to the press and the public on the quality of Sonic's recent outings. IGN gave Sonic the Hedgehog the "Franchise Suicide" award. That had to sting someone at Sega.

    I would love to see Nintendo make the next true Sonic game for Sega even if that means Wii exclusivity.
     
  14. Chaos Muffin

    Chaos Muffin Misadventure Veteran

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    I still prefer 2d Sonic. Plus it leaves more memory for more stages.
    I always hated the underwater stages tho, that warning music making me all nervous
     
  15. Smasher

    Smasher HUNKY BEATS

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    Yeah, but the "bubble sound" is the single greatest sound byte of the 16-bit era.

    WHOO WHA!
     
  16. Dark_Convoy

    Dark_Convoy Old Bastard Veteran

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    My kids told me they actually get freaked out by the warning music - and the sight of Sonic drowning.
     
  17. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    I certainly wouldn't object to one current-gen home console 2-D Sonic game, as long as it could decisively top Sonic 3 & Knuckles... which unfortunately I'm inclined to doubt right now. Sonic Rush is one of the best Sonic games made, and it certainly tops S3K in terms of graphics and speed, but the level design doesn't seem as inspired. Even though a better game should be possible, I don't think we're going to get one, for the same reasons the 3-D games haven't been up to snuff.

    More than any one particular formula, what Sonic Team needs is a strong team leader and more sensible and understanding corporate management. It's probably true that the best thing that could happen to them right now would be some kind of a Nintendo buy-out of Sega.
     
  18. dark_mullet

    dark_mullet Banned

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    I just finished the Shadow Episode on Sonic the Hedgehog for the PS3 and seriously, I loved that episode. It was all the good stuff of Sonic's episode but better. Sure there were useless vehicles, but you could ignore them (or use them for fun). The story was swell and well done too. If Shadow the Hedghod the GAME was as good as this episode level set, that would have been a good game.

    I don't know why Sonic's Episode couldn't have been as enjoyable and interesting. Too much town, too much lame princess-based story, and too many RUN FORWARD ONLY AND DONT CHANGE DIRECTION MID JUMP levels.
     
  19. dark_mullet

    dark_mullet Banned

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    Sorry for the double post. I finished Sonic the Hedgehog, which I think is a 7/10. Not often am I compelled to write a review for a game, even those I LOVE. But this...this game somehow needed to be reviewed by me. So here it goes.

    Sonic Teams likes to mess its games up.

    At least that's what it seems like in recent years. They come up with a great idea and lay down great ground work, then apparently go "HEY LETS MESS THIS UP ^_^!" Sonic Adventure 1 had very buggy gameplay, Sonic Adventure 2 had the levels of Rouge and Knuckles, Sonic Heroes was Sonic Heroes, and Shadow the Hedgehog had crippled gameplay and the lack of any aiming device.

    Regardless of their problems though, Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 were VERY solid Sonic games. SA2 gave us a more mature story and probably the only good new characters we've ever gotten since Knuckles. Things went down hill and many Shadow the Hedgehog jokes later, here we are at Sonic the Hedgehog for PS3/X-Box 360.

    It took me a while to get the game, so it's a late review. But I didn't get a PS3 until Christmas of 07.

    So, to the game itself. As you can already see, I gave it, OVERALL, a 7/10. But talking about the game itself must be split into five parts. One for each separate episode and one for a general over view. So let's start off with Sonic himself.

    Sonic Episode: 5/10

    I have never been so back and forth about my opinion on a game as I was when playing Sonic's episode. I'm not sure what went through Sonic Team's head during the creating. Let me explain, in Sonic's episode there are three basic missions styles. The classic 3-D Sonic style, going through a mostly linear level while running fast and fighting enemies. Escorting the Princess, which is basically just the previous stated style with an extra mechanic. And the super speed stages, where you run forward at full speed non-stop.

    During the standard 3-D Sonic stages, I was in ecstasy. It was like Sonic Adventure again. It was fun. It was GOOD. But then...a super speed stage. Let me sum something up, you will die. A lot. You also can't control your direction after you jump. Who thought THAT was a good idea? I don't know. And sometimes on a super speed stage, you will have NO idea what you're doing wrong when you're dying.

    Sonic was the only episode I was sent back to the title screen on. His episode had the CHEAPEST deaths ever in a Sonic game. Add on that his time spent in Town was the longest and most boring, as well as having the lamest other playable characters, gives us an Episode that you MUST force yourself to play through. Not that I have anything against Tails or Knuckles, but the way they are handled is poor.

    The story of Sonic's episode is also lacking. Every cutscene is a lame "save the princess" story aspect and is usually filled with partially creepy Furry-based romance. There's nothing interesting, aside from Eggman FINALLY being threatening. The entire time you feel like a HUGE story is progressing around you and you're seeing NONE of it.

    Silver Episode: 6/10

    Silver is the new character for this game and brings us some new mechanics to play with, which are sometimes fun. He moves slowly through any level, using his Telekinesis to throw objects at enemies.

    There's nothing really bad about Silver's play through, save a couple needless puzzles. The only downside is that...it's really not fun. He moves too slow, he levitates too short, and the throw mechanic? You still lack an aiming system. All you can do is make sure the object is in front of you and hope for the best.

    On the flipside though, boss fights with Silver were my favorite boss fights. It was nice to do something different with a hedgehog instead of hitting X twice a bunch. Blaze the Cat was an enjoyable extra character, although Amy was more crippled than she has ever been.

    Silver's story is a notch above Sonic's, with a few interesting questions ("Is it right to kill someone to change the future?"), but didn't make sense sometimes, such as major events being changed in the past yet his future still being in ruins when he returns to it.

    Shadow Episode: 10/10

    Make all the Shadow the Hedgehog jokes you want. He's black. He steals cars. He shoots people.

    But none of that matters when it comes down to this: Shadow SAVED this game. The short reason? It's pretty much the same format as Sonic's episode...except WITHOUT the cheap deaths, super speed stages, or other needless bullcrap (HEY BUY THIS GEM AND IT MAKES SONIC TINY FOR NO REASON). Shadow, somewhat ironically, has the MOST solid Sonic gameplay since SA2.

    Shadow is, in essence, a tougher version of Sonic. He has air combos, ground combos, and uses vehicles. Yes, motorcycles are still slower than you and in all cases but one, the cars are useless. But you know what? If a level starts you out in/on a vehicle, just GET OFF. Yes, you can do that. And then it's like they were never there, just good old FUN 3-D Sonic. Running. Collecting rings. Killing enemies. Wisely, there are no guns ever in Shadow's hands.

    But I will admit, once, it was really fun to chase down a train on a Motorcycle.

    Rouge handles as a mix of Tails and Knuckles and works decently, while Omega is not as fun as E-102 was, but is better in comparison of other extra characters in this game. There will also be times where Shadow flies on some hand-glider-plane-thing, but they are usually short enough that even if you hate it, it's not around for long.

    The story of Shadow's episode is also the best. You realize this early in his Episode, when Shadow meets Mephilles for the first time. The cinematic is better set up, nice angles, music is moody and properly placed, and dialogue is more mature. As it progresses, it just gets better. The ending is somehow the ONLY cliffhanger ending, the other story endings don't even hint that there's a Final Episode left (even though we ALL know there will be). If Shadow's solo-game was as good as his episode, NOBODY would be laughing at him.

    Final Episode: 8/10.

    Best final episode to date. Playing as each character was handled well, even the characters who aren't fun to play as. And save a couple more cheap deaths, it was challenging but not anger-inducing. The final battle with the Super Saiyan Trifecta (hey, will we ever see Hyper forms again? Or Super Knuckles? Just saying) was very enjoyable, switching between the three super hedgehogs.

    Overall: 7/10

    So where does all of this leave us? I feel its worth the $30 price tag I paid (now $20), mostly thanks to Shadow and the final episode.

    There are a couple more problems I have to point out though which didn't belong anywhere here prior. The story really doesn't isolate its own Time Travel rules. Sometimes it establishes that all time travel in the game ALREADY happened and no time travel will change things (which gives us actually a really neat reason why Mephilles knows Shadow). Other times a major even WILL be changed and the future with it. So while this bothers me as a geek that over-analyzes sometimes, know that it's better to shut off your logic about this.

    Also, the game music was great as usual. But the end theme music was not. With the exception of Crush 40's (the greatest band associated with Sonic) well done cover of "All Hail Shadow", we're treated to lame pop and decent rap-rock. The final episode theme is also just a beautiful melody which, might be well placed in an RPG, but not in a Sonic game.

    So was this Sonic Adventure 3? No. But it was close. VERY close. If Sonic's Episode was more like Shadow's I would submit to this as my favorite Sonic game. But the problems prevent it from gaining that title, but I do stand by my over all score of the game.

    If you haven't played this game out of fear of 3-D Sonic, I suggest you give it a try, especially for the $20 price tag. It's not as bad as all the magazines said it was.
     
  20. Smasher

    Smasher HUNKY BEATS

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    An interesting review.
    I actually think you score it a little too high, though.

    There are many more things wrong with the game than I think you point out.
    But I've gone over them in other posts and don't feel like typing them again.

    But I will admit that I have mostly played Sonic's stage and gave up due to its complete failure in the fun department.
    It really looked like Sonic Team had their collective heads up their asses.
    Forget about the spring boards that don't work, falling right through the environment, or the fact that you can't see 99% of the enemies who are shooting you.
    I consider their biggest failure to be the stupid city missions and the load screens it forces you to go through.
    You talk to a character to start some stupid mission that seems to be preventing you from getting to a fun part of the game (talk to the Captain, find the dog, LAME!) yet you have to complete to get to the fun part.
    Then you see the loading screen for an eternity, then you play on the exact same map you were just on, then an eternal load screen again and then you are in the same place.
    It is rare for a game to load so long these days, and completely puzzling that it needs to do so to display the same polygons, textures, and music that you were already listening to -TWICE!

    Still, I feel a bout of masochism coming on so I might play Shadow's episode for a bit.
    I am in the minority, too, in that I like the character.
     

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