There must be an animated season 4

hutchprime · May 8, 2009

FWIW, I HATE that Kickback's posts contain so much good information and are so logically constructed.

I want to have some hope that Animated is continuing, but he leaves me none.

You win Kickback.

Eric · May 8, 2009

AniProwl said: ↑

You know.. what if they're throwing us for a loop and we get season 4 just like how we got Starscream clones when they said no to them?

Mr. Bay's misinformation campaign might be spreading to other parts of the Transformers business.
Click to expand...

Excuse me for a moment.

*Goes out of the room and laughs a lot, comes back in*

I'm sorry, but I highly doubt that would be the case.

HIM666fan · May 8, 2009

The only way i wont be upset with no season 4 is if they announce a awsome Universe show... going back to the old bot styles and not the Armada and all that garbage and updated and awsome Transformers Universe thats what i want!!

Miss Frost · May 8, 2009

Kickback said: ↑

TV Series Cost = $100.00
Cost of a Single Toy Production = $150.00
Plan assortment for the year = 10 new molds
Cost of Toy Production for All New Molds = $1,500.00
Cost of 13 episodes of animation = $1,300.00
Total Cost = $2,800.00

TV Series Given Horrible Time Slot = -$50.00 to profit, as TV show at a bad time = no ratings = no noticable difference to sales.

Suddenly TV Series cost = $150.00 per episode, making it $1,950. Add that to the toy cost = $3,450.

Uh oh, due to new safety test standards, the cost of the toys just went up $25 per mold due to higher cost to get the toys out and the higher cost at retail, during an economic recession, with parents less eager to buy the toys. That' $175.00 per toy, for 10 molds. $1,750 now. Add that to $1,950 and you get $3,700.

So from Animated Season 3's conception of an estimated cost of $2,800 for 13 episodes and some new toys, to continue with Season 4 you are looking at $3,700. Or a $900.00 increase.

Now, let's change that to millions.

$2.8 million versus $3.7 million. That's an extra $900,000 that has to come from somewhere. And don't forget that Hasbro's profits on Transformers were *WAY* down, lower than expectations. And Hasbro's stock has gone down during the recession, making their worth less than what it was 5 years ago. So that $3.7 million actually comes across as say $5.0 million. So from the time Animated Season 3 was green-lit and gone, the price went up for a 4th season $2.2 million dollars.

Now look at the movie line and see that it cost you $150 million dollars to make the movie. And it cost $10 million to make the toyline. $160 million dollars to make "Transformers". It brought back over $750 million dollars, or a profit of $590 million dollars just in the movie alone. Figure the toys brought in another $20 million, and you're looking at $610 million dollar profit.

If I'm Hasbro, sitting at my desk, looking at these numbers ... Animated causes me to take a loss, while movie promises big incentives for profit.

Which do you think I'm going to go for?

NOTE: All numbers are made up. I have no idea how much an episode of Animated costs, and even if I did, I wouldn't legally be allowed to share that information. I also have no idea how much a toy costs - I was told once, years and years ago, but that number has surely changed, and thus was not even used as part of these number crunching figures.

But think about it. Animated is most likely a "low profit/no profit" series. That comes from the bigger costs of being produced locally instead of overseas or split with TakaraTomy.

Guess we'll find out at BotCon.
Click to expand...

I hate math. You win.

Sound Blaster · May 8, 2009

Maybe we will get a surprise at the end of season 3

caitlindevi · May 8, 2009

Kickback said: ↑

Correct.

Correct. It won't be called a "cancellation" ... as a canellation implies that it was scheduled to continue and was stopped mid-process. They will use the term "discontinued" or "ending". Then they will talk about how Universe will allow them to bring explore Animated down the road if they'd like.

Which is a brand new line of toys, to be revealed during the "Product Preview" for 2010.

Don't take their silence as a "we don't know what to do for 2010". Whatever is in store for 2010 has been in the works for at least a couple of months now, as I'm sure ROTF toyline is more or less complete. Or at least down to planning redecos for the final waves of the movie-line while the rest of the designers work on whatever the new line is.

Very simplistic equations, but it's quite different in reality.

TV Series Cost = $100.00
Cost of a Single Toy Production = $150.00
Plan assortment for the year = 10 new molds
Cost of Toy Production for All New Molds = $1,500.00
Cost of 13 episodes of animation = $1,300.00
Total Cost = $2,800.00

TV Series Given Horrible Time Slot = -$50.00 to profit, as TV show at a bad time = no ratings = no noticable difference to sales.

Suddenly TV Series cost = $150.00 per episode, making it $1,950. Add that to the toy cost = $3,450.

Uh oh, due to new safety test standards, the cost of the toys just went up $25 per mold due to higher cost to get the toys out and the higher cost at retail, during an economic recession, with parents less eager to buy the toys. That' $175.00 per toy, for 10 molds. $1,750 now. Add that to $1,950 and you get $3,700.

So from Animated Season 3's conception of an estimated cost of $2,800 for 13 episodes and some new toys, to continue with Season 4 you are looking at $3,700. Or a $900.00 increase.

Now, let's change that to millions.

$2.8 million versus $3.7 million. That's an extra $900,000 that has to come from somewhere. And don't forget that Hasbro's profits on Transformers were *WAY* down, lower than expectations. And Hasbro's stock has gone down during the recession, making their worth less than what it was 5 years ago. So that $3.7 million actually comes across as say $5.0 million. So from the time Animated Season 3 was green-lit and gone, the price went up for a 4th season $2.2 million dollars.

Now look at the movie line and see that it cost you $150 million dollars to make the movie. And it cost $10 million to make the toyline. $160 million dollars to make "Transformers". It brought back over $750 million dollars, or a profit of $590 million dollars just in the movie alone. Figure the toys brought in another $20 million, and you're looking at $610 million dollar profit.

If I'm Hasbro, sitting at my desk, looking at these numbers ... Animated causes me to take a loss, while movie promises big incentives for profit.

Which do you think I'm going to go for?

NOTE: All numbers are made up. I have no idea how much an episode of Animated costs, and even if I did, I wouldn't legally be allowed to share that information. I also have no idea how much a toy costs - I was told once, years and years ago, but that number has surely changed, and thus was not even used as part of these number crunching figures.

But think about it. Animated is most likely a "low profit/no profit" series. That comes from the bigger costs of being produced locally instead of overseas or split with TakaraTomy.

Guess we'll find out at BotCon.
Click to expand...

Damn you and your impecable logic.....*shakes fist*

As to toy costs the the actual toy itself is minimal and the development of each one doesn't cost as much as cutting the steel for the moulds. A steel mould usually costs a minimum of £10,000 per mould. Given how the Animated figures are released and their size/componants its looking like they get a couple of Deluxes per steel, a voyager per steel and it might even be 2 steels for a Leader...depending on the size of the steels they're using.
There are other factors like different colours of plastic...it also depends if they can inject different plastcis into the same mould on each shot (some machines can, it speeds up production runs)

Feralstorm · May 8, 2009

hutchprime said: ↑

FWIW, I HATE that Kickback's posts contain so much good information and are so logically constructed.

I want to have some hope that Animated is continuing, but he leaves me none.

You win Kickback.
Click to expand...

Kicky is the king of pissing on the cornflakes of senseless optimism. (sigh)

Vexza · May 8, 2009

Don't be crushing our dreams with logic Kickback! D8

But you're right...

Harbinger · May 9, 2009

i would be happy if it continued in comic form, and getting the last of the toys even if they are under the universe banner. even putting last animated toys out though universe shows they do acknowledge the fans, its just that we wont be part of the main focus for awhile again.

Maximus_Prime · May 9, 2009

I will miss Animated for sure

oh yeah TC I would recommend that you take down that avatar of yours sense you just edited one of mine without permission, just saying.

brittap · May 9, 2009

Kickback said: ↑

Correct.

Correct. It won't be called a "cancellation" ... as a canellation implies that it was scheduled to continue and was stopped mid-process. They will use the term "discontinued" or "ending". Then they will talk about how Universe will allow them to bring explore Animated down the road if they'd like.

Which is a brand new line of toys, to be revealed during the "Product Preview" for 2010.

Don't take their silence as a "we don't know what to do for 2010". Whatever is in store for 2010 has been in the works for at least a couple of months now, as I'm sure ROTF toyline is more or less complete. Or at least down to planning redecos for the final waves of the movie-line while the rest of the designers work on whatever the new line is.

Very simplistic equations, but it's quite different in reality.

TV Series Cost = $100.00
Cost of a Single Toy Production = $150.00
Plan assortment for the year = 10 new molds
Cost of Toy Production for All New Molds = $1,500.00
Cost of 13 episodes of animation = $1,300.00
Total Cost = $2,800.00

TV Series Given Horrible Time Slot = -$50.00 to profit, as TV show at a bad time = no ratings = no noticable difference to sales.

Suddenly TV Series cost = $150.00 per episode, making it $1,950. Add that to the toy cost = $3,450.

Uh oh, due to new safety test standards, the cost of the toys just went up $25 per mold due to higher cost to get the toys out and the higher cost at retail, during an economic recession, with parents less eager to buy the toys. That' $175.00 per toy, for 10 molds. $1,750 now. Add that to $1,950 and you get $3,700.

So from Animated Season 3's conception of an estimated cost of $2,800 for 13 episodes and some new toys, to continue with Season 4 you are looking at $3,700. Or a $900.00 increase.

Now, let's change that to millions.

$2.8 million versus $3.7 million. That's an extra $900,000 that has to come from somewhere. And don't forget that Hasbro's profits on Transformers were *WAY* down, lower than expectations. And Hasbro's stock has gone down during the recession, making their worth less than what it was 5 years ago. So that $3.7 million actually comes across as say $5.0 million. So from the time Animated Season 3 was green-lit and gone, the price went up for a 4th season $2.2 million dollars.

Now look at the movie line and see that it cost you $150 million dollars to make the movie. And it cost $10 million to make the toyline. $160 million dollars to make "Transformers". It brought back over $750 million dollars, or a profit of $590 million dollars just in the movie alone. Figure the toys brought in another $20 million, and you're looking at $610 million dollar profit.

If I'm Hasbro, sitting at my desk, looking at these numbers ... Animated causes me to take a loss, while movie promises big incentives for profit.

Which do you think I'm going to go for?

NOTE: All numbers are made up. I have no idea how much an episode of Animated costs, and even if I did, I wouldn't legally be allowed to share that information. I also have no idea how much a toy costs - I was told once, years and years ago, but that number has surely changed, and thus was not even used as part of these number crunching figures.

But think about it. Animated is most likely a "low profit/no profit" series. That comes from the bigger costs of being produced locally instead of overseas or split with TakaraTomy.

Guess we'll find out at BotCon.
Click to expand...

But did you add in the saving of mold reuse/repaints for years to come, sales of the show on DVD, and what they get from stores for exclusives? I'm not saying your wrong but there might be more to add in.

Tekkaman Blade · May 9, 2009

Hopefully we will get some new molds later in universe as there are many characters I'd love to see figures of. More than likely we will get some repaints and remolds next year at botcon.

Kickback · May 10, 2009

brittap said: ↑

But did you add in the saving of mold reuse/repaints for years to come, sales of the show on DVD, and what they get from stores for exclusives? I'm not saying your wrong but there might be more to add in.
Click to expand...

Re-using and repainting a mold still costs money - just not as much because the mold already exists. Retooling costs a bit more, and is reliant on how many new molds versus repaints are coming around the same time.

Sales on DVD will go more towards Cartoon Network, Paramount (they do distribute Animated on DVD, don't they?), the writers, the voice talent, and so forth, enough that Hasbro's "profits" from the DVD aren't nearly as big as people think they are.

Store exclusives are actually more beneficial to the store. Hasbro sells "repaint exclusives" cheap to the stores, cheaper than their normal case assortment, if the store agrees to take on xx amount of the product. Stores will look at what type of "specials" they want to have, or exclusives, or sales, and factor in what demographic or category of product needs a boost in sales or is selling well, and takes it from there. Take Target for example. I guarantee you they didn't pay $24.99 per Shockwave or Sunstorm. Or $20. Or $15. I estimate their deal cost them anywhere from $7 to $12 for each one of those figures. Hasbro's cost to reuse those molds with new colors is minimal, so they either broken even or made a small profit, and improved a working relationship with Target for making the deal good for both sides.

There's even more than that to add in ... the shipping of the product from China to the United States. The cost of product packaging and merchandising. The marketing costs of the product. The "purchase" of retail space from the big retailers like WalMart, Target, and Toys'R'Us. The varying costs of each figure going up and down depending on the type of plastic, the type of paint, and the cost of the mold based on its unique engineering and play-patterns. The fact that the toy hardly goes from "paper to toy" without going through a number of changes, of which costs time, which then costs money.

Animated, on any level, is not cheap to make And thus, its success is very important, because if it fails to succeed, then it's going to be a quick-sinking ship. And at BotCon, we'll find out either way what was the nail in Animated's coffin.

Aurora Bluewolf · May 10, 2009

i hope they make a fourth season, even if it's after the movie has come and gone. who knows? maybe the movie will give it that nudge it needs... and if cartoon network and hte other networks that play it will boost it to a better time. jerks. we need more transformers! you got like 3 blasted hours of repeats! you can give up one of those time slots!

caitlindevi · May 10, 2009

Kickback said: ↑

Re-using and repainting a mold still costs money - just not as much because the mold already exists. Retooling costs a bit more, and is reliant on how many new molds versus repaints are coming around the same time.

Sales on DVD will go more towards Cartoon Network, Paramount (they do distribute Animated on DVD, don't they?), the writers, the voice talent, and so forth, enough that Hasbro's "profits" from the DVD aren't nearly as big as people think they are.

Store exclusives are actually more beneficial to the store. Hasbro sells "repaint exclusives" cheap to the stores, cheaper than their normal case assortment, if the store agrees to take on xx amount of the product. Stores will look at what type of "specials" they want to have, or exclusives, or sales, and factor in what demographic or category of product needs a boost in sales or is selling well, and takes it from there. Take Target for example. I guarantee you they didn't pay $24.99 per Shockwave or Sunstorm. Or $20. Or $15. I estimate their deal cost them anywhere from $7 to $12 for each one of those figures. Hasbro's cost to reuse those molds with new colors is minimal, so they either broken even or made a small profit, and improved a working relationship with Target for making the deal good for both sides.
Click to expand...

Hasbro would still have made a profit....not even improving a working relationship is worth not making a profit for.
The trade priceis probably about right, but the price it costs hasbro to make (after shipping, transporting, warehousing and distibution) will only be half of that price if not less so hasbros cost of a Voyager would be around $4 to $7

A loose rule is to double the cost at each if something costs a factory $2.50 to produce, the manufacturer will buy it for $5 and sell it to a retailer at $10 and the retailer sell it for $20.
So if you're now asking why Hasbros only store has higher prices than the stores and never reduces prices its because retailers wouldn't buy from them if they were being undercut online al the time. Hasbro store makes a way bigger profit than selling to stores at trade but it would erode its main buisness if it was bigger than it is now.

As for repaints they're vastly cheaper to produce than new moulds or retools. The major cost in any new figure is cutting the steel mould but then the cost is split the higher the production run.

Lucario Prime · May 10, 2009

I don't know, but wasn't it Hasbro that didn't want Cartoon Network to renew Animated? If that IS true, then doesn't that mean they either want to kill Animated, or keep it for their new channel?

Lock Cade · May 10, 2009

I would have liked to have a season 4 to Animated, but... maybe, just maybe, after all the movie hype and if they don't end season 3 in a satisfactory ending, leaving a whole bunch of loose threads, they might return to doing more Animated?

Highly doubtful, but... at least we can all keep dreaming, can't we?

hockeygamer40 · May 10, 2009

Lucario Prime said: ↑

I don't know, but wasn't it Hasbro that didn't want Cartoon Network to renew Animated? If that IS true, then doesn't that mean they either want to kill Animated, or keep it for their new channel?
Click to expand...

At TFCon, I believe Hasbro said it's up to Cartoon Network to renew it or not.

Keep two things in mind --

1 ) There's a lot of time between ROTF being released and the fall 2010 start of their cable network.

2 ) Animated can always show up in Universe just like other lines have and even the Animated legends class figures have.

Even if TFA dies after season 3, we can hope for new figures just like their wish to make a new Rhinox figure in Classics 3.0 since his figure from the original BW doesn't match totally with what was on the screen. (Search the news articles / boards postings for this reference but I do recall this old news.)

Public tastes, management, and even network ratings can change things quickly. However, if season 4 is to start next spring, they have to get started in the next month or so.

SuzyPrime · May 10, 2009

I thought all the writers were let go? Isn't that, sadly, conclusive proof that the show is over? Hope springs eternal, but it sounds like Animated is done.

hutchprime · May 11, 2009

SuzyPrime said: ↑

I thought all the writers were let go? Isn't that, sadly, conclusive proof that the show is over? Hope springs eternal, but it sounds like Animated is done.
Click to expand...

Hope NEVER springs eternal when Kickback is around.

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There must be an animated season 4

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