The whole Fallen thing..

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by Cobalt Agent, Jul 8, 2011.

  1. Cobalt Agent

    Cobalt Agent My dick kills dinosaurs

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    Is the Fallen from the films really the same as in Dreamwave and IDW? I get the whole multiversal singularity thing, but then that's my question. How can the Fallen continue to appear in other serieses if he already died and his spark was extinguished?

    Seriously, do the original 13 get infinite lives? Damn cheat codes.
     
  2. alfred p. sloan

    alfred p. sloan Well-Known Member

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    Short answer : Yes it is the same The Fallen whenever you see him. No matter how he looks or what he does.

    At least as I understand the current Hasbro mythology.
     
  3. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    Man, he sure lost a ton of weight after War Within. Dude got FIT.
     
  4. E. C. R. Former

    E. C. R. Former Is probably insane...

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    Apparently, multiversal singularity can't just be killed in a single universe as they can continue existing in another universe.

    Its not just the Fallen: other members of the Thirteen such as Vector Prime and Alpha Trion were killed in the universes they originally appeared in (Cybertron and the G1 cartoon) yet they show up alive in stories that take place in other continuities. Heck, even the big guys themselves, Unicron and Primus have died in one universe or another but remain very much alive in other universes.

    If you think about it too much, your brain will explode so just go with it.
     
  5. Saberfrost01

    Saberfrost01 元ロボ ダイユーシャ

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    How I see The Fallen is one Mind controlling several 'Avartars'.
    Each dimesion having it's own Avartar.
     
  6. Cobalt Agent

    Cobalt Agent My dick kills dinosaurs

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    But his spark chamber was crushed in the film... so would he have been more than an avatar if he housed a spark? =/
     
  7. Saberfrost01

    Saberfrost01 元ロボ ダイユーシャ

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    Actully I can completly understand what you mean. I even to this day I am trying to crack the Time/Space contium. :peoples: 
     
  8. Kickback

    Kickback Proud father Administrator Super Mod News Staff

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    The unofficial truth about The Fallen.

    Originally derived in the days of Dreamwave, "The Fallen" was noted as the "traitor" to the original thirteen Transformers, who joined Unicron and attempted to destroy the other twelve and Primus. He failed. He came back to life (thanks to Bludgeon, Mindwipe, and some other weird Transformer) and sought to destroy Primus again, but again, failed.

    "The Thirteen" is credit to something Simon Furman wrote way back in the 1990's, but it was "The Twelve" back then ... and they were a Beast Wars thing, with their "Gods" being based on the twelve zodiac symbols (ie: Shockorat, Sandstorm, etc.). Somehow that idea was turned in to G1 story-telling.

    The idea of using "The Fallen" came from Orci and Kurtzman, though the Writer's Strike disabled them from actually being able to properly write the character. Before ROTF came out, Hasbro promised the telling of the Thirteen. As we know, in ROTF "The Fallen" is actually a "Prime" that betrayed the other "Primes" (7 in all?). No mention of Unicron, Primus, or anything of the sort. That, and "seekers" are ancient warriors and not jets.

    Huh?

    Thirteen plan was scrapped entirely and Simon Furman pulled off the story. IDW throws out the "scapegoat" plan that The Fallen is one of the Thirteen named Megatronus, who Megatron takes his name from. (this is all G1). Hasbro is now doing the Thirteen but is timid at actually creating something that they're going to have to keep as "this is the real deal" ... their idea is now that each of the thirteen will represent a faction of the Transformers ... ie: a female warrior for all female transformers, a combiner for all combiner transformers, a soundwave-ish character for all those types of characters, and so forth.

    For as successful as Michael Bay has been with the Transformers franchise, anyone who is a fan of the mythos of the Transformers is probably on the "Bay-hater" side, as he, along with Orci and Kurtzman, managed to destroy so much mythology of the Transformers and change it in ways that either make no sense, or have nothing to do with the source material.

    *out of breath*
     
  9. Transfotaku

    Transfotaku Transformer Otaku

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    Yeah, that 'universal singularity' crap just doesn't work on any level. Not from a scientific one. Not from a writing one. Not from a simple casaulity one. Not even from a 'shut up and eat your awesome' one.

    It's just a bad concept and worse execution.

    But, to the OP, with that said: Technically they are. Somehow. Don't think about it. It works only if you don't look at the wizard behind the curtains type of thing.
     
  10. Chris McFeely

    Chris McFeely Well-Known Member

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    I love posting this. :) 
     
  11. Proxima

    Proxima Goddess of Darkness

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    I think Vector Prime and Jolt explained it best during Cybertron. Even if they "Die" in that reality they will exist in others but will be unable to access that reality ever again. Vector Prime could in essence with his ability look into that Universe but not enter or communicate with it on any way shape or form After his death. Hence giving his sword to one of the children BEFORE dying.
     
  12. Anguirus

    Anguirus Well-Known Member

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    I know I'm a newer fan, but this seems uncharitable. I'm fairly sure that no one involved with RotF has anything to do with the "multiversal singularity" business. As someone familiar with G1 cartoon and Beast Wars before the movie franchise came along, I had no conception of the "Zodiac" or of the importance of Shokaract.

    I like the new Thirteen stuff I've been hearing. It seems to mesh well with the old Marvel comic.
     
  13. boxorak

    boxorak Lovable Noob

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    Personally, I'm sticking with it, at least the "can't be killed, is just shunted into another universe" part.
    Besides, quite a bit of fiction dealing with the Multiverse and alternate realities in general doesn't work on a scientific level. :D 
     
  14. Cobalt Agent

    Cobalt Agent My dick kills dinosaurs

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    This is probably the best explanation of anything I've seen on this board.
     
  15. Wheeljack_Prime

    Wheeljack_Prime Don't eat me

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    Essentially, if he dies in one universe, he's just banned from it rather than being really dead.
     
  16. Phil

    Phil Well-Known Member

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    I just try to not think about the singularities at all, given to the fact that they make no damn sense.
     
  17. Transfotaku

    Transfotaku Transformer Otaku

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    I hate it. ;)  It's just full of Star Trek technobabble and has no actual meaning. There's nothing to it, and the fact that they think that universes exist only for mere seconds is appalling. Universes exists with or without any witnesses there at all.

    Shunted into another universe is fine. I like it myself, and it's dramatically appropriate. But as someone who loves quantum physics and multiversal theories in science, it's one of my pet peeves when someone just does something that...well, stinks.



    Personally, my way of thinking of it is this: They exist in every universe. One to every single universe. Otherwise, well, there's only 13 of those guys (15 if you count Unicron and Primus). There's an infinity of an infinity of an infinity, to the infinity exponent, in multiverses. That means there's so few universes that they'd be in, which means it would be statistically impossible for them to affect anything, much less be in any timeline or story at all.

    Better to have all 15 in every single universe. If they die in one, they're banished from it and they can't have a 'twin' from another dimension come in. The difference between this and all the Optimus Primes and Megatrons in all the universes? The 13 (15) are aware of all their other-universe selves, are all 'mind linked' to their other-universe selves, and their plans can be coordinated across the multiverse.

    So that Fallen from War Within is a different from from RoTF movie, but they were aware of what each was doing/planning and advancing a joint, shared plan across the universal boundaries.

    Makes them much more menacing and powerful and everything. Also means if one dies in one universe, the others (the other dimensional selves, not the other 13/15) all feel the loss.
     
  18. Cobalt Agent

    Cobalt Agent My dick kills dinosaurs

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    I get the multiversal singularity thing. At least I thought I did. My understanding of it through was this-

    Unicron exists only in one universe at a time, and can move between them at will.
    Primus exists simultaneously in all universes, but he's the same in all of them. The death of Primus in one universe would kill him in all universes.

    I mean it would just seem to me that if the 13 were *actually* singularities too, then they should follow one of the above templates. My reasoning being that the 13 come from Primus! And their transforming ability is supposed to have been copied from Unicron as per Primus' plans as opposed to giving himself a robot mode right?

    And yet, they can have their sparks extinguished and still go on in other realities? Prime crushed the Fallen's spark chamber. Alpha Trion sacrifices himself and resides in Vector Sigma/The Matrix/whatever... but oh yeah he's a multiversal singularity... but also there's an evil version of him in Shattered Glass. Also Liege Maximo is somewhere out there chilling... asdffgfhgfjhgg!!!!

    That's fucking stupid. Just saying.

    Here that scraping, Hasbro? That's the bottom of the barrel. >=/
     
  19. Incepticon

    Incepticon Double Agent

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    The whole Matrix schtick is as far as I'll go with mystical nonsense in anything Transformers related... and even that's a stretch. As far as I'm concerned, The Fallen from Dreamwave is a completely different character than The Fallen from Bayformers, and both are beyond retarded characters imo. Whether it's real life or fiction like TF, I just hate anything & everything to do with myticism, alternate realties, multiverse singularities, religion, timespace dimensions, etc etc etc. That's exactly why I also never liked Dreamwave's take on Sunstorm. He was the Jim Jones of Transformers.
     
  20. Karhukjnsi

    Karhukjnsi Universal Wrestler

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    Ever see that movie "The One" with Jet Li? The idea is, the multiverse holds nearly infinite possibilities, many of us exist in more than just one universe.

    This version of you may love cookies and hate violence.
    The next version of you may be a diabetic and an extremist sociopath.

    But they're both still Bobby Teenager with the same genetics, but different possibilities. We exist separate of our other selves and many have no idea that the others exist (like Optimus, Bumblebee, Ironhide and what have you), but the Fallen and other multiversal singularities are connected to each other and are always aware of what each other are doing. So while one version may die, not all of them die at once.
     

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