Why the lovers love and the haters hate

I was going to start a new thread for this, but this post is probably "neutral" enough to qualify for this thread....

Putting my own opinions aside, it seems to me that the schism this movie has opened up can be made a little less wide if both sides took the time to see things from their opponents' point of view. I'm not trying to annoy or patronise anyone, but if both groups do become united in their loathing of me, I'll still feel it's all been worth it.  


Why I think the haters hate:
Those who don't like the way the movie is shaping up generally have very clearly defined ideas on what Transformers "should" look like, and those ideas are very clearly rooted in the robot designs and the general tone of the 1984-85 G1 cartoon first and foremost, and all other incarnations of the franchise second. There are certain essential things in the original cartoon which make it both enjoyable and definitive.

So the whole movie experience for these people must be like having a favourite cafe or eatery, somewhere you've been going to for years. You go there a lot, order pretty much the same thing every time, sit at your usual table, enjoy the comfort and familiarity...

... and then some bastard new owner installs shiny new chairs, fires the cook and changes the menu. Yeah, maybe it really is more trendy. Maybe the new food is, technically speaking, better quality. Maybe it will be more popular now. But it's not the same place anymore. It's not your place anymore. From a purely legal standpoint it's the same business, but it feels so sterile and alien that it's hard to recognise anything you used to like about it.

Imagine being told by the new manager that you need to quit your whining, sit down, shut up and get used to it because the cafe "has to cater to a wider audience." To add insult to injury, people who have never even been interested in the place before are now being given a higher priority than you, a previously valued and long-standing customer.

Wouldn't you be annoyed? Even if the new manager is right and this monstrosity becomes successful, wouldn't you be angry?


Why the lovers love:
People who like or are adopting a "wait and see" approach to the movie seem to regard the 84/85 cartoon as being like just one dish in a big Transformers buffet meal, not much more prominent than any other. Every new cartoon, toyline or series is something else to try. They might not like all of them, but they'll find something to like in each one, be it a cool new character, a homage to an old one, a good story idea or just a small part of the mythology which cropped up in the latest reboot/retcon.

For these people, there isn't much beyond the most basic concept (transforming sentient robots, heroic Autobots/Maximals and evil Decepticons/Predacons) that is set in stone. There's a whole mass of ingredients to choose from, none more important than any other and very few of them are regarded as being essential. Therefore the movie presents more of an opportunity to them. They see something that will bring a truckload of new ideas to the table, regardless of whether it's a huge success or a dismal failure. They'd prefer it to be a success of course, because that means there's more chance of a sequel, spin-off cartoon series, toys and comics, all of which will add to the diversity of the franchise.

Even though they haven't seen the movie yet, the tantalising trailers and the leaked early designs excite their imaginations.

To change analogies for a moment (writing about food is making my stomach growl) imagine you're 8 years old and have this huge parcel under the Christmas tree. You can gently shake it and hold it to your ear to see what noise it makes, feel the outline and even glimpse a tiny part of the box. It's full of promise and potential, and regardless of whether it'll live up to it that's exciting.

Now imagine that some guy you don't know takes one scornful look at what is potentially the greatest present of all time and tells you he knows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it sucks. He can tell just by looking at the wrapping and that corner part of the box, apparently. No way is anything good going to come out of that parcel. Whoever wrapped that present, along with whoever made what's inside, should be fired since they don't understand parcels at all.

Then he tells you that it's not really a parcel anyway. Sure, it's a box wrapped in christmas paper that's sitting under a decorated pine tree, but apparently that's not enough to qualify. The arrogant git then tells you that it's not a parcel unless it conforms to his rather rigid definition. He won't tell you exactly what his definition is, but he knows this item just isn't parcelly enough to qualify.

It spoils the experience, doesn't it? Even if that guy was right and it's an utterly useless and boring piece of crap inside the box, he still made the the anticipation much less enjoyable.


Why we don't understand each other
Because, although both groups love Transformers to bits, both groups have radically different perspectives on exactly the same things. One fan sees a homage, another sees a pale imitation. One fan sees something as blasphemy, someone else sees it as innovation. One bunch is looking forward to the movie because it's radically different to any previous incarnation of the franchise. The mob on the other side of the chasm is absolutely dreading it for precisely the same reason.

We are never going to agree because of radically different philosophies on what makes Transformers great. However, we can agree that it is great, and recognising that commonality should be at the top of our thoughts when responding to a post we disagree with. Whether the movie succeeds or fails, our shared obsession - this modern-day legend, straddling two centuries, as powerful and as absurd as Santa Claus - will endure.

Fans on the other hand, just like movies, toylines, comics and even voice actors, will come and go.

 

Nice analogy there. I approve.

 

Wreckie, Brilliant. I think every member of this board should be required to read your post. Honestly. Can the mods assign homework? Because they ought to. Thanks for that.

 

well, as i posted a few pages back, i kinda have one foot placed in the appreciation thread   , i just need a few more things to be convinced (welker, a full transformation and slight changes on the faces would probably do the trick) but that doesn't mean that i wouldn't have preferred a more "conventional" look, like a middle point between alternators and the current designs.

btw great post wreckie  

 

Glad you liked it. I really wasn't sure where to post it and, like I said, I have an aversion to starting new threads. Neutral seemed to cover it, though.

 

I loved your post Wreckie!

But I gotta say, I'm probably only in the neutral camp not because I fall disinterestedly into the middle, but because I feel polar-opposite extreme emotions about different elements of the whole thing.

Sure, I really, REALLY, want to see the movie and I want it to be successful. I think that going a more straight sci-fi route is the right choice and they seem to be doing that in many regards. It even seems like the Bay production is going to have some nice juxtapositions which you really need in a movie like this (i.e. traffic fights, human jeopardy, mundane settings suddenly gone weird).

And yeah, the trailer has me pretty exited.

That said, I'd much rather see Transformers get the "Battlestar" treatment than what looks to be more of "Men in Black" meets "ID4" affair. When the folks at Sci-Fi Channel rebooted the Battlestar Galactica franchise, they pulled out all stops and the show just keeps getting more compelling, dramatic, and fun. The reason I think BSG works so well is that they kept so much of the aesthetics and themes of the original show in tact and then turned into something deadly serious. And I think most people agree that when Tranformers have worked best is when it skates into the area of (relatively) serious dramatic themes. That's why Tranformers the Movie works so well; there's a ton of death and danger and complicated emotion.

When you start seeing autobot bodies being piled up (*sob* Wheeljack) it does something to you. When Ultra Magnus says, "I can't deal with that now." You realize that even the good guys need to be clumsy and insensitive. And when Kup looks in awe upon Unicron and remarks on how he has no war story to relate to the enormity of what he's now witnessing, the awe suddenly becomes real. From what I've learned of the script, we're not going to see anything like that.

I know what you might be thinking, "both the original BSG and Transformers were silly as all hell." But there was something there that resonated with the raw parts of the viewer. Something that, again, seemed iconic and almost mythic. I think that content-wise, BSG's reboot made the update and transition into a modern and compelling franchise gracefully. However, I doubt that the Transformers live action film will even come close to that same level of grace and profundity.

And I guess what's sad for someone like me is not that I wanted "G1 come to life," it's that I really wanted to see a hardcore dramatic sci-fi movie in that vein with giant transforming robots. Further, even after seeing the trailer, I still think that the designs look crappy and lack the charisma and iconic value of even the worst toy incarnations (Energon Prime, anyone?).

So yeah, I guess I'm 50/50 only because I love the franchise with all of my heart (save for anything with "Beast" in front of it) and know that Bay can deliver a really fun sci-fi movie (I really liked the Island, it was stupid and fun with just enough grit and that was enough). On the other side, as someone who is a professional illustrator and has done some concepting for people -- as someone who's analyzed narrative and dramatic devices with great care and seriousness -- I cringe every single time I see something new. I think that the production design is entirely off base and lacks the iconic power that the Transformers have innately brought with them over two-plus decades. I also think that the story is going to be middling and lackluster to someone who sees the potential for something truly resonant.

Basically, I'm now just really looking forward to a heavily entertaining event movie that, it just so happens, is based on a toy/cartoon franchise that I dearly love. I'm sure it'll be tons of fun no matter what. There's no way it's gonna be as bad as the Phantom Menace or X3 (Ratner should burn for what he did).

Otha Zackariah Edward Lohse
Minneapolis, MN USA
http://www.modurndae.com

 

I still want to see this


"Whoa, it transforms"

"Dude no way"

 

Dude, you must have majored in Fanboy-ology at FU (Fandom University). Ever thought of pursuing a career as a fanboy-ologist? You could be like Dr. Phil go from board to board counselling fanboy/fangirls  

What you stated is EXACTLY why I've never had a problem with this movie. It's just another part of a great meal for me  

Wreckie's post FTW  

 

I agree that Wreckie's ideas apply to some fans in both camps, but I think that most of the "haters" also fall under the banquet analogy you applied to the "lovers". Remember that BW was a vast departure from G1 but it is very highly regarded by most of the fandom. I think that you assume too much to attribute like or dislike of the movie's designs to having a particular philosophy or approach to Transformers.

For myself I can say that I would like to see more of the original asthetic represented in the movie. However, I also love BW and some of the designs from BM but dislike others and much of Armada and Energon. So you can't exactly say that I require Transformers to always be framiliar and recognizable.

On the contrary, I believe that any number of asthetics were possible for this film within the rule of fitting into a real vehicle. What they chose just doesn't sit well with me, just as you say "likers" have preferences in the vast sea of TF's.

 

I consider myself a hater, but only because I've been referred to being as much so many times. Truthfully, I'm quite indifferent. I find that most fanatics suffer a unique inability to hear the voices of their counterparts at the other side of the table, accepting only the most extreme point of view, and brushing off everything else.

Honestly, there is a great deal of range between unadulterated support, and embittered hatred. Right now, the movie simply doesn't impress me. It could be good or bad, and frankly I don't really care. I'll wait until some of the fine people on these boards take the time (and $10) to check it out.

I like that this movie isn't trying to be slavishly faithful to G1 (which I like), but at the same time, I'm not exactly a fan of Michael Bay and his work (which I hate). When you put everything together, I just could care less about this film. If it does well, and crushes everything else in its path, that's wonderful! If it bombs opening weekend and nobody goes near it for weeks to come, that's fine as well.

What I don't like are the constant generalizations and extremes that haters and supporters will go to in order to prove that their opinions are somehow more valid than the opinions of their opponents. I mean, am I seriously to believe that these designs were absolutely necessary, and that Bay and his team were merely victims of design constraints, or conversely, that anything that doesn't follow an established (and often bad) mythos of G1 or any of its many follow-ups is somehow blasphomy? At the end of the day, this is just a movie.

 

Since when did our neutral thread become a meeting place for the likers and haters? Please return to your own respective threads 'kay thx bye.

 

I love Wreckie's post, but I've got two problems with the analogy:

1. The old cafe is still just the way it used to be, but every new cafe in the chain is very different from the original familiar one. The old cafe's location isn't as convenient as the newest one.

2. G1 isn't just any dish on the buffet, it's the restaurant's signature dish. Not every customer likes it best, and nobody has to eat it, but it's the house specialty.


Before anyone shoos me out of the thread, keep in mind I consider myself a very hopeful "wait and see" camper.

 

Actually, I was talking about the whole movie build-up: the designs, the leaked script, the cast, the director and so forth, not just the designs alone. And I thought I was careful enough to use words like "in general" rather than characterising everyone in fandom.

Still, I take your point.

 

Nice post, but I think you missed a couple of things.

Using the cafe example, imagine that the haters favourite cafe is one of five.
Now imagine the cafe is taken over and turned into an amalgamation of the other 4 cafes.
You liked your favorite cafe because of what it was unique for, and it got replaced for something that seems new to some of the regulars, and is loved by people who ate at two or more of the other 4 places as they get it all in one, but in reality, you lost a unique cafe and got a poorer version of stuff you can find elsewhere.
Now it's selling whatever food is fashionable to people who will pass through, use it up and leave it behind to fall into obscurity when the next cafe craze hits.

And the people who praise this new place constantly keep telling you you should move on when you fully know most of them would cry like babies if it was their place taken away.
And that you would happily move on if there was somewhere moving on to.
Apparently it's wrong to not be easily pleased.

The other bunch is people who are happy for their favourte cafe to change.
But they don't like what it's changed into.
It's not because they're hung up on what was, just that they don't like what currently is.
However, what they did like was so unique and the new place still has some of it, so they stick around.

Irritatingly for them, they're assumed to be haters of everything new, and assumed to be so because they're hung up on the old.
Even more irritatingly, they have to listen to people who never liked the old place talk about it being crap as though it were factually correct.
These "haters" have the attitude that more choice is better as there's something for everyone, but have to listen to those who insist it and everything else whould be more like their fast food place, like people who would go into McDonalds and complain that the food should be more like Burger King instead of just going to Burger King.


And as far as the lovers go, there's one group you've forgotten. The "I'm happy to be single crowd".

In real life there are many people happy to be single. They don't shout about it, they're too busy enjoying themselves.

Then there are those who suddenly find themselves single.
So they start telling themselves, and the world that they realise what they cared about so much was never what they told themselves it was.
They talk how they used to be just like others in love, how the single life initially devastated them, but they came to realise that it is so much better.
They usually also start to point out all and any flaws in their ex or the whole concept of relationships, and grow increasingly frustrated with people who aknowledge those flaws, but are happier with the flaws than this perfect single life.

Any attempt to say that you prefer the flawed life or that you think both could be maintained in a happy medium results in accusations you're deluding yourself.

Unfortunately for other people who may think similar things for entirely different reasons, many assume they're all overcompensating in that way.

 

Problem: Nobody took the old cafe away or changed it. It's still there, exactly as it used to be. Rather, some people are complaining that the other, newer cafes should be more like the old one.

Your other metaphor... isn't even making any sense to me, honestly.

 

I agree with that assessment - it's not as if Michael Bay is going out and stealing everyone's G1 DVD's and feeding them to the furnace - but a lot of people apparently feel very different. I never suggested one group or the other was correct in their feelings.

  Can't help that, sorry.

Razerwire has said that this thread isn't the place to have this discussion, so apologies to all neutral people for dragging it off-topic. Please resume your states of ambivalence and/or indifference.  

 

KTHXBYE?

 

omgstfun00b, then, kthxbye

 

Everybody CTFD.  

 

actually, after seeing the trailer, i'm still 'neutral' abt it, so to speak.

i watched the trailer maybe 3 times, tops, and while it does look cool, it still feels kinda generic. prolly once i hear the bot actually speak, maybe my feelings will change.