The Problem With Hasbro Children Toys

Discussion in 'Transformers Toy Discussion' started by PikaManiac, Jul 12, 2018.

  1. smf2045

    smf2045 Aficionado of Combiners

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    If the toy doesn't have shoulder, hip, elbow, knee and rotating neck joints, I'm not interested in it. I only collect Transformers Generations stuff, so it hasn't been a problem so far.
     
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  2. WishfulThinking

    WishfulThinking The world has moved on...we've always said.

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    TLK didn't really do anything different that AoE hadn't done. There were old toy repaints and weirdly gimmicked toys in that line too. If it felt self-sabotaged, that's understandable - but I think the larger culprit came from retailers and their demands for a four-quarter wave system of distribution but only ordering the first two waves of any toyline in decent quantity.

    Now that we're in the internet age, there's really no reason to even deal with a middle-man retail system anymore. Toy companies need to shrug off the old system of selling through retail and just start selling direct to consumer. No more waves. No more pointless hunting. Hasbro makes a toy and we buy it straight from the factory.
     
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  3. Strife

    Strife Well-Known Member

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    Yep. Me too. But it explains almost everything, and almost too neatly. The first two deluxe waves were filled with characters either not, or barely in the movie (Bumblebee aside) and largely were repaints of AoE figures (inlcuding Bumblebee). Voyager Grimlock shelfwarmed, while Voyager Optimus was very difficult to find. Leader Optimus looked like a cheap KO and was a re-release of the AoE mold and not the upgraded Takara mold.

    It was a very small line, priced high, with distribution of new figures that largely post-dated the movie by months.

    We've known for years that Bay got a cut of merchandise sales, including figures, from the movie lines. We don't know if that extends to things like Studio Series or HftD (lines that have movie-figures in them but arent connected to the movie otherwise). That deal was certainly very lucrative for them with the expansive 2007 line and RotF lines. But since DotM they've been getting smaller and cheaper in terms of what they're offering. And that really just culminates with TLK, which it was pretty clear, Hasbro never seemed to be a big believer in.

    If they wanted to just finish out a contract that no longer served their interests, on a movie franchise they were open in lamenting they had less creative control than they would like (as opposed to Bumblebee and the post-TLK plans), the TLK line would look like exactly that: minimal marketing, small product line, limited shipments and minimal investment.

    What really sells this too me is how freakin lavish Studio Series is in contrast to TLK. I mean the same company put out Leader class TLK Optimus Prime and Leader Class Blackout, a year apart. The same company that put out the impeccably painted SS Starscream and detailed SS Grimlock pushed TLK Grimlock and Voyager Optimus Prime's sloppy paint job, a year before.

    If they wanted to wrap a contract, with minimal expenses on their end, the TLK line would be what it looks like to do that, especially if the chief rational behind Studio Series, which just shows so much more care in every way, is that they don't split the profit pie with Michael Bay and Paramount like they do with the movie line.

    Is that the way it is? Who knows. It's just a theory of mine. The answer could be as simple as "movie lines never sell anymore, so they didn't spend more than the minimum they had to". But regardless, they certainly weren't doing themselves any favors with the molds they chose or the colors they chose.
     
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  4. Strife

    Strife Well-Known Member

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    I just don't understand why Hasbro, being the leading Toy maker doesn't just unilaterally do away with the obsolete wave system as we know it. What's Target and Walmart going to do? Not carry Transformers, Star Wars, Marvel and soon Power Rangers? It seems if retailers want to have a toy aisle at all, Hasbro's position to dictate what goes there, by deciding what they are going to offer and what retailers have to chose from, has never been stronger.
     
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  5. worldsgreatest

    worldsgreatest Well-Known Member

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    RID Warrior toys aren't simplified though. They're on par with Prime Wars in both number of transformation steps and articulation.

    Later figures like Bisk and Bludgeon, and even Jazz have pretty nifty engineering as well.
     
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  6. DarkRed401

    DarkRed401 Well-Known Member

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    i think hasbro has forced a lot of boring gimmicks in recent transformers(mainly talking about cyberverse), i get that they're aimed for kids but i struggle to see what kid would find these fun, sure they're simple enough for toddlers to understand but i don't think it would excite them however, hasbro's recent gimmick based bumblebee toy that was revealed actually looks like something i can see kids having fun with, kids like lights,sounds, and spring loaded weapons,i don't see kids having fun with the cyberverse half transformation gimmick unless they just want something to laugh at
     
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  7. worldsgreatest

    worldsgreatest Well-Known Member

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    Have you watched Teen Titans Go? It's pretty smart, and subversive in a lot of ways.

    I mean, there's an entire episode about building capital through owning property. And it's hilarious.
     
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  8. pokemonsdoom

    pokemonsdoom MadameVixen

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    BOO! Come on man, They evicted a bunch of villains because they were villains...and were annoying and drove the value down but they are villains thats what they do,
     
  9. tikgnat

    tikgnat Baweepgranaweepninnybong.

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    I think Hasbro did throw the TLK line out the window. AoE didn't make them any money, so why bother to put any effort into TLK? Especially as it was pretty much more of the same Bayhem.

    This new BB film...? Hrm. Must have been a tough decision at Hasbro. If it's a hit amongst kids, there'd be a market to sell the toys to. But what if it isn't? Caught between a rock and a hard place.

    As to what Hasbro are doing now... I agree that they've forgotten who they're selling to. Toys aren't supposed to be expensive. They're supposed to be impulse buys, at least that's what they were when I started collecting as an adult. Toybiz Marvel Legends were what? £7.99? With a comic, accessories a and chunky base/BAF part? These days pushing £25 for a single figure with an accessory and regular sized BAF part... Yeah, I don't pick any up. Instead I'll pick up a £3.99 blind pack Scooby Doo figure.

    Hasbro needs to fix the price at something affordable, and produce the best toy they can for that price. And, that includes packaging. Back in the day Hasbro put a lot of effort in their packaging, presumably because they understood that the store sighting was the first point of contact between their product and a kid. Dazzle them.

    The Star Wars Black series? Absolutely a total disaster. Plain black box? Yeah, it'll appeal to the Star Wars collector but to kids? Fuck no. I think anybody that believes that collectors somehow outnumber the kids is deluding themselves. Collectors are the bonus, kids are the bread and butter. But the toys (and subsequent prices) are overly skewed to the collector, so the whole thing has derailed a bit.
     
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  10. worldsgreatest

    worldsgreatest Well-Known Member

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    It was a good comedy bit!

    Plus the one where they get jobs and Beast Boy merges his couch company with Cyborg's fan company or something. Most episodes are about totally mundane things like Robin's Perfect Sandwich too. It's great.
     
  11. GAUGE

    GAUGE Wargod ARTS

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    IT's simple, Kids don't buy transformers much anymore. They prefer the much cheaper KO or MARS brand alternative. I admit I stand in toy isle for hours on end at times and I can contest, kids don't buy TFs mainly due to the fact the parents refuse to pay the stupidly high prices for them. since most parents these days DON'T GIVE AN ALLOWANCE. they simply buy their kids toys from Yard sales, Garage Sales, Flea markets, Dollar stores. and usually it's for their kid's Birthday, or it's a reward for good grades, etc. Since many families especially families who shop at Walmart, Target, Fry's (Kroger) ect. They are on a SET family income aka they are Lower Income families who can't afford expensive prices Toys are sold at these days.

    It seems to me since kids and parents aren't buying as much toys anymore due to market oversaturation, it's affecting the build quality, parts count, materials, paint apps etc.

    Kids care more about Video Games and Tech than they do toys and Action Figures as a collective whole.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
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  12. pokemonsdoom

    pokemonsdoom MadameVixen

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    i prefer the episode with Cyborg going all Hal 9000 on them
     
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  13. Strife

    Strife Well-Known Member

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    DO they though? Or is that just a meme. 80s and 90s kids also had video games and tech - truly unprecedented amounts of them at time - and still bought toys. My brother and I played a lot of SNES and N64. I played a lot of computer games. And we stilled played a lot of X-Men, G.I. Joe, Jurassic Park, Batman and Ninja Turtles (Transformers was mostly a "me" thing). Whenever we went to the Mall, we hit up two places: Kaybee and EBX. Sometimes we'd get X-Men at KB. Sometimes we'd get a video game figure at EBX (like the Toybiz Resident Evil line, which was really cool at the time).

    Toys and video games co-existed just fine because both were complimentary towards each other. Toy companies put out products that weren't patronizing and targeted towards us. Even my 10 year old self could differentiate a "good Wolverine" from a "bad Wolverine" and grew frustrated when figures I wanted, like Jean Grey as Phoenix, were incredibly difficult to find.

    What yous aid about Star Wars Black is 100% on point too. I've never collected Star Wars, but growing up G.I. Joe was, along with X-Men and Ninja Turtles, the biggest line my brother and I played with. We had a lot of G.I joes and a lot of vehicles and based, which was made possible by $4 MSRP at the time or whatever it was, and $20 vehicles. Nowdays, it's $12 for Star Wars 3.75 inch figures with GI Joe levels of posability, and $40-$60 for most vehicles. And best vehicles are over $200, which is something G.I. Joe, X-Men and Ninja Turtles never approached.

    This all happens against a backdrop where the middle class incomes have been flat for decades, which cost of living has been dramatically rising for years. I don't know how today's parents could give to two children what my parents did to us, on sheer cost grounds alone. My mom wouldn't be able to impulse buy a couple of X-Men or Joes for my brother and I, in this world.

    I do think there is certainly a place for collector lines, and collector pricing. But they shouldn't be on shelves like they are now. As you said, kids are the bread and butter. But this connects to a whole other thing I've observed the past few years, which is the broad introduction of adult themes into content that should be meant for children. I mean, even take a legitimate *great* show like Star Wars Rebels. It portrays themes like violence and death in a way that shows in the 1990s never could have. Or comic books. I grew up with the Jim Lee and after era X-Men. And that didn't shy away from certain dark places, but it was certainly a kind of "all ages" production. And what's been in comics the past decade instead?

    This:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    These are super hero comic books. The first is from Siege, a marvel crossover from 2010. The second is from Batman and Robin a few years back. Comics. A medium meant primarily for children. Little surprise readership is a third or less of what it was when I was growing up. What kind of sick parent would buy their kid this?

    and don't worry, there is a toy of it too.

    [​IMG]


    I think all these: ranging from overpriced figures at absurd price points that just have no kid-appeal, to overly violent cartoons (compared to the past), to adult themed general-line super hero comic books are all representative of a society where milennial and generation Xers grew up and decided, rather selfishly, to make the products and stories they always wanted for themselves. Totally not meant at all for kids. The stuff that's meant for kids is patronizingly simple and cheap. But that's not the focus. The focus is themselves.

    I think this is perfectly captured by this toy:

    [​IMG]

    Let's examine this specimine.

    -It's a Batman toy.
    -It has a $20 MSRP
    -It is based on an adult-themed graphic novel, the Dark Knight Returns, that came out in 1986.
    -It's VERY true to the art style of DKR
    -It's mass market.
    -It's a build a figure.

    This thing clogged shelves. And why shouldn't it have? What kid will have actually read the Dark Knight Returns, now? A handful? It's a 32 year old comic now. It's depiction of everything is pretty dated for 2018. A legit comic fan would read it and get it it maybe in their mid to late teens. So maybe a collector figure for the few people that would want one? Sure. But a mass market $20 release? And such a bland look? Why would kids have any draw to this. The only thig appealing to this from their angle is "Batman". And there are better looking, cheaper ones. No. Someone at Mattel made this to give 35+ year old fans the toy they never got growing up.

    Of course the other side of this was the shelf warming Justice Leauge line
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Mattel managed to make the quintessential four color super hero team about as exciting looking on a shelf as a lecture on brutalist architecture.

    I think this all paints a pretty simple picture: toy and media companies today don't really give a shit about what should be their target demographic. Maybe it's because they actual designers are selfish and are making content for themselves. Maybe it's profit driven (kids have no money, adults do). Maybe they just don't have kids themselves and can't relate. But it's a real shift from when we were growing up.
     
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  14. Cha Chi

    Cha Chi Minimondomayhem

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    Big problem with Hasbro toys and toys in general is not articulation or really that they are cheap. The big problem is that they are boring toy lines!

    If a toy is fun a kid won't really care about articulation, articulation is just an annoying thing that stops gi joe from standing up because it is to complicated to balence if you are 4-5 years old. Hasbro gets that and its convenient that it helps them also cost cut. They also get very well that kids say oh Transformers, Bumblbee, thats Optimus Prime and what do you know there is the OP the Bumblebee and which size do you want? The giant one, the tiny one, easy one, the shooting one, detailed one, the talking one. Yes Hasbro staked it's success and made it's success on providing that for kids that want it.

    But with that great success comes the failure and death of something great about Transformers and the kind of toylines we grew up with. There's no variety and because all those different toy bees and OPs are made all their respective lines are shallow with few characters and even less interactivity with each of the toylines. I loved g1 transformers, there were what seemed like a gazillion characters and they all belonged to same toyline as far as i was concerned. Onesteps are great but they don't even have weapons never mind playsets. There is nothing to lure you in deeper. How many vehicles do they put out per SW movie? And not only that they are whackeist interpretation of the ship, don't even dream you could put more than one figure in it. Lol

    No variety of characters, no focus on one line and everything is dilluted.

    Cartoons like Teen Titans go is equivalent of tom and jerry or road runner in the 80's i think. You watch it but instead of zoning out because of the action you zone out because of the verbals. They share the zone out effect though.

    Adventure Time, SW Rebels and Nick Turtles are good examples good cartoon shows. You can tell the people who made them have put their heart into them. Where as something like new Rid they were probably looking at their watch while making it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  15. Switch313

    Switch313 Well-Known Member

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    I agree to an extent. Different toy lines cater to different needs. More articulation is COOL usually, until the figure ages and is a floppy mess that can't hold any pose let alone stand. Less articulated toys are cool because they take a f*****g beating and keep going minus paint wear. Can take them outside, or in the bathtub (for the kiddos), drop them, throw them, have them fight and actually hit each other!

    I think there's also some nostalgic-bias at play here. There were some awful toys in the 80s and 90s too.

    What bugs me is the half measures though (and somewhat high price point of basic toys nowadays).

    The Marvel Infinity War Basic Figures (~$9.99 to ~$12.99 USD) have pretty excellent molds. From the texture on the Black Panther figures, to Spiderman's suit, they're actually pretty detailed (not all, but on a whole). But you can't pose them! What's the point of all that detail and (sometimes) paint apps just to have a figure who stands awkwardly with their legs close together. They usually have shoulder ball joints and elbow joints. Even if they just gave them a ball jointed hip and no knee articulation it'd be ok.

    I dunno if it's a price point issue, or IP eating into costs or whatever (even though I HATE that excuse for why toys/lego/etc have to cost inflated prices) but the JLA toys are the same price point and do have knee bend and more intricate accessories (not necessarily better or worse).
     
  16. Blam320

    Blam320 Assembly Inventor

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    If Hasbro still made Star Wars action figures like they did circa 2008 with their Clone Wars line - chocked full of articulation with some fun gimmicks as well - I might still be into them. But no, they went out of their way to dumb down their mass-market figures to OG Kenner levels of articulation, hip and shoulder only. On top of that, they decided one line wasn't enough, they needed to try to replicate CHUG's success with the Black Series. What they ended up doing is flooding the market. CHUG works because Transformers is constantly reinventing itself, so you could have two or even three distinct versions of Starscream (as I'm sure there is with leftover RID, PotP, and Studio Series somewhere), while with Star Wars you're reiterating the same basic cast across all lines until the next movie or TV show in the timeline is released. You could have two different Kylo Rens, one with no articulation and some gimmick like battle armor or the "Force Link" thing, and one with articulation and a few accessories, but much more expensive. It's a lose-lose for Star Wars, unless you solely collect the roleplay items like Blasters and Lightsabers.
     
  17. Cha Chi

    Cha Chi Minimondomayhem

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    let's take a moment to realise what we have lose, it isn't articulation btw.

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  18. Isaac Hill

    Isaac Hill Systems Analyst

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    The self-sabotaging TLK theory doesn't make sense. Why spend the money developing new molds and toolings at all if you don't plan to sell many? Just do all repaints and light retools for all the waves. My guess is the new molds/heavy redecos were pushed to later waves so the design and manufacturing groups could better achieve screen accuracy in response to late changes to the character design.

    That explains why the first wave of Deluxes included Slash (don't need to worry about screen accuracy for a non-screen character) and Berserker (only on screen for a few seconds).

    It might've worked, except someone overestimated how much demand there'd be for those figures. If wave 1 were produced in numbers more in line with actual demand, stores would've sold out of them in a reasonable time, and ordered later waves.
     
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  19. Blam320

    Blam320 Assembly Inventor

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    Some stores also overbuy on the first wave, expecting it to sell out like crazy. This happened with TLK and PotP, the former especially so considering it was a movie line. Then when it doesn't sell, it winds up souring that store's appetite for those toys, so they order less of everything and shrink the shelf space in favor of brands that do sell. Sometimes they repeat the same mistake of overbuying on a single wave, leading to a vicious cycle.
     
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  20. tikgnat

    tikgnat Baweepgranaweepninnybong.

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    It's plainly obvious Hasbro didn't spend as much on TLK as they did say RotF. Sure they did a few new moulds but there's no way Hasbro expected to reap as much back as they did after the success of the '07 film toys.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
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