Discussion in 'Transformers 3rd Party Discussion' started by blunghole, Oct 5, 2008.
Awww man, you forgot about danny b
expensive ko's. smh.
You make no sense...
Official product, like your magnus example, is the same thing as key chains, statues, etc if all are licensed products.
The city commander trailer as well as the perfect effect pieces are both 3rd party, being designed to interact with an official product, yet completely original.
The clear city commander trailers are ko, they were never released by fansproject.
Hopefully you don't see 6 parties after this...
Οh... Did he left like forever?
IMO the difference is in whether it's a completely original design (or not) including transformation, engineering, etc.
Third party will of course homage HasTak IDW, etc.... That's the point. However the designs are original. This includes third party add-ons such as PE and FPJ. They may be add-ons but they're still original in their own right.
KOs on the other hand copy all or much of their design from an existing piece of work, regardless of whether that is first or third party. Small improvements (or simplifications), size/color changes, etc. don't change that it's a KO. The KOs of the PE hands/feet, Jinbao Feral Rex, MFT upscaled legends, etc.
WJ toes the line sometimes. MPP10 is absolutely fantastic...but it's still a KO of MP10 even if it's improved. MPP36 on the other hand is an amalgamation of (or inspired by) other designs. One could argue it's closer to third party than KO, since there's some unique engineering... personally unless the design is completely original I still feel it's a KO of some calibre.
None of this "fourth party" crap... A KO is a KO, regardless of whether it's pulling from a first party or third party source.
Unless he makes a new account he can't.
Hahahahaha. Wonder if it has to do anything with our private exchange. Still the collective IQ of this forum was raised by a bunch suddely
They did KO that G1 jetfire figure, well... at least the mold; but I think nearly all of us missed the boat. It was by a company called Joon's and from what I was told, those things sold for ~$20-$25 back in the day. The green box was near identical to Takatoku's, but Joon's had, "MACROSS" at the top instead of "BATTROID VALKYRIE." They had that mold in I think 4 variants: blue, red, olive green and the red-white-blue combo. I've since picked up a few of them.
The happywell galaxy defender series of toys had the grey valkyrie you're talking about. They have lime green visors and I recall seeing a seller having them with different weapons than the standard rifle that we've seen with other releases. I think I want listed the item w/ sirtoys 2 or 3 years ago.
There are also thin plastic, cheap KO valkyries in the 1/55 scale whose legs in gerwalk/guardian mode bend inward and so don't stand straight without some sort of brace. Some even came in the skull leader (roy) colors with a blue jetpack.
Seeing these various 1/55 valkyries (aka chunky monkeys) was what got me back into collecting as an adult ~2012, as the G1 Jetfire was probably my favorite toy as a kid... then things spilled over into collecting other things, and now thousands of dollars later, well, you know.
it seems the ko'ers have done all the g1 toys recently except jetfire for whatever reason.
Takara Is technically a 2nd party too as the Transformers brand is a license - but due to their role in co-production of the products they are treated as 1st party so would a product that Hasbro asked an outside licensee to make for them.
2nd party is when a brand is farmed out to another company as happened with Microman & My Little Pony in the past. It is also any "3rd party" (in linguistic sense) who is granted a license such as the statue lines or Halmark Xmas decorations.
Now I've said that I'm going to confuse people as usage of 3rd party would usually apply (outside Transformers Fandom) but as established terminology is to use 3rd party; that isn't available.
If you want to imagine this as people in a room having a party then it's 4 groups of people.
Group One Takara and Hasbro *and by extensions makers of cartoons and media products are extended to stand here* by virtue of their material being something that the 2nd party licensees base their products on (i.e pencil cases, T-shirts, school folders etc)
Group Two anyone who seeks a license to make Transformers Branded products - or who makes Transformers Branded products by permission. Such as Simba Dickie or Flame toys. As well as Products made at the behest of Hasbro or their licensees (an example of that would be the toys on the cover of UK comics) but not by them.
Group Three : The Ip thieves & People trading off the Transformers indirectly (Things like Steel Core)
Group Four : KO's of 3rd party items and items made for 3rd party items as accessories by other 3rd party companies.
Final Group : KO's of official and licensed products and Products that share engineering with those products
Others : Things that are distantly related to Transformers but are only tangentally connected to them like Battle Saga toys or a Marvel's Death's Head toy.
That is only one way to see it though.
I count Perfect Effect of an upgrade kit for an FP trailer as a 4th party if the item isn't designed to go with the Hasbro part but with the FP trailer part.
Licensed products aren't "second party". Just like with first and third person, the intermediary between the two is you yourself. This is the way the term is treated from within the industry, and thinking otherwise is ignorance on the part of the consumers.
Dude, you probably need to do some reading. 1st Party is the maker or holder of the license. 2nd Party are the consumers, 3rd Party are other companies that do licensed and unlicensed work. There's no 4th Party.
For me, the issue with calling items like 3p upgrades KOs, and things like weijiang megatron getting called KOs is that it adds villification, it isn't evil to prefer a better version, even if that version does admittedly come from two sources designs without authorization.
Calling everything not independent or official a KO and thus stealing may be legally true, but what toyline would produce rioter despotron, or striker manus, or pandinus? Third party fills in ideas that have been lost due to safety or price limits, 4th party fixes THOSE where unforseen issues occurred (since KFC perceptor is one of the few times a bad product gets redone to be less bad) or where people realize 'you know how powermaster prime could be cooler?! A JETPACK OF WEAPONS!' And make it have an upgrade.
3rd Party Upgrades are not KOs. They are unlicensed products.
WeiJiang's NE-01 Megamaster is a 3rd Party Product. MPP10 is a 3rd Party Product - skimming the line of a KO, but it has a lot of "difference" to the MP10 product it was based on. We've also seen direct KOs of MP10.
You're missing the point...
3rd party upgrades are just that - 3rd party
An example of ko's would be the wukong or machineboy versions of the original warbotron bruticus. The oversized warbotron bruticus is still a ko as well.
Perfect effect ninja is a 3rd party figure.
Striker manus is a 3rd party figure.
A "JETPACK OF WEAPONS" created for power master prime is still just a 3rd party upgrade, nothing more.
4th party claims is like saying you have 2 biological fathers... Highly illogical.
Want to say sorry on the thread . Seams.like a nice guy . Really was interested and guy scared you off so I'm open to say it for being a bug here . My bad alen . When I figure a way ill try again but for now no worries .
Yeah, Galaxy Defenders, though I think they've been sold under different branding as well. I have one of them. It's not a direct port of the old Takatoku/G1 mold. There are a number of surface details that have been changed or simplified. The detail is softer, and it's obviously a bit flimsier, but the hips and landing gear are still diecast. Mine came with a standard Valkyrie rifle/gunpod
I also have two of those Happywell Stealth Valkyrie KOs in grey cammo deco... one has chromed shoulders, the other has shoulders that match the deco. They're not bad if you can replace the derpy heads.
There were also KO versions of the Macross7 Fire Valkyrie and Blaze Valkyrie. They were okay, all things considered. Not great, but surprisingly complex.
That's just it... unauthorized copying of a design or intellectual property really does make it a KO.
I'm not worried about vilification. We all love KO stuff here, and most of us are happy to buy 3rd Party stuff. But if we're being honest with ourselves, we have to acknowledge that these things are still categorically "knock-offs".
That said, in this fandom, we find it useful to create a distinction between copies of existing molds, and original molds that merely imitate Transformers IP. So we generally understand that "KOs" are copies, and "3rd Party" refers to higher end original molds.
I think that certain things challenge the line between "copy" and "original"... but if you're reworking an official mold... or even a 3P mold, I think that still has one foot in the "KO" side of things. This doesn't always mean low quality. Look at the Masterpiece KO market. Most of those are completely comparable to the originals in terms of quality, and a few are actually better. If you look at the recent MP Laserwave KO, ratchets have been added to the hips, and chrome added to the inner chest. But it's not 4th party... it's still a KO.
I mean, I think I just dislike the term "4th party" because it's unnecessary and it doesn't make sense, for all the reasons mentioned above. There can only be 3 parties... the First Person, the Second Person, and the "Observer".
I think that's technically the same thing. Unlicensed products that copy either designs or IP would be considered KO... but I know what you mean. It's useful for us to draw a line in common parlance between "KO" and "3P"
I disagree. If you're copying something illegally, I don't think there's nearly enough difference in MPP10 to qualify it as "not a KO".
I prefer to think of it as just a really good, really ambitious, and really useful KO.
I only Got into the ko dinos the past few month's . Still looking for the greengrimlock to complete my collection. I feel as if the kos are cooler but also something odd to see on your shelf . I love the g1 even a ew new ones but the pre g1 and the kos nothing better . If anyone knows of where to get one it love to get one. I saw a few of the pre g1 takara transformers go lately and so cool to re the styles .
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