The great "GEEWUN" debate...

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by KWFlange, Jan 30, 2011.

  1. KWFlange

    KWFlange You're So Jelly

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    Hello guys and gals,

    As I am sure you have noticed (but I will go into detail in explaining regardless), When some one on this forums says that they do not like a specific continuity they are immediately met with "You just don't like it because it's not G1".

    So as an experiment I'd like to see your input on the following questions....

    1. How many of you have been accused of disliking something because it is not like G1...when you yourself do not like G1?

    2. Can a specific storyline or continuity (as a whole or in part) suck for any other reason than its difference from the Alpha continuity(G1)?

    3. Which cartoons, comics, movies, etc. do you like and dislike? (just to create a scale)

    4. Do people who dislike G1 have harder feelings towards it than G1 fans do toward other continuities? (Considering I've not seen "You only hate G1 because it's not like Animated".)

    5.Could this whole Taste based on Proximity to G1 simply be a campaign to undermine the fan base of the original continuity?

    Personally I liked: G1, Beast Wars, RiD, Unicron Trilogy(what i have seen of it), Animated (minus human baddies, Prowl and Sari), The few comics I own, The first live action film, And (so far) Prime

    But only dislike: Beast machines and RotF (While there are parts of each which i do like).

    And when watching/reading something new from the Transformers brand I try not to think about G1 at all, it is new and I want to view it as that. If I like it I like it, and if i don't I don't.

    What do you think?
     
  2. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    Yeeaahhh... I'm not gonna get into this one right now, but I will say this:
    The term "GEEWUNner" is normally used as a term of hate, and that's how I react to it.

    And, I think somneone must have a pretty large chip on their sholder whenever they resort to the whole "you don't like it because it aint GEEWUN enough" thing.
     
  3. Murasame

    Murasame CHIMICHANGAS

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    People using "Geewun" in an argument just don't have real arguments, so they might be ignored. That's how I treat it.
     
  4. Bumblethumper

    Bumblethumper old misery guts

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    I certainly don't like everything that's been done with Transformers over the years. And the reason was sometimes because it went too far away from the roots of the franchise. I guess that makes me a gee-wunner.

    I certainly didn't like everything about G1 either. I don't put it on a pedestal. Some of that shit was retarded. But there are certain core elements of G1 that were very strong and that I like to see respected and carried over. Stuff that's so essential that it doesn't feel like transformers without it.
     
  5. shroobmaster

    shroobmaster Well-Known Member

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    1. Never

    2. Of course. Bad writing and design exists regardles of proximity to G1

    3. That woud.... take ages to answer y'know. But I'll say this much: The only series that I can't find one single enjoyable part of are Energon and Cybertron. Everything else got at least something right/good

    4. Hard to know. Most of the time somebody is shitting on G1 they're only using the Cartoon, so one could argue that they barely know G1 (<3 Marvel comics)

    5. Nope. It's just that some people really are extremely clingy to the original. There is no campaign, just humans being humans.
     
  6. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    G1 is my point of entry for Transformers. It's the "setting" and cast of characters that informs my love of the brand, on almost all levels. All Optimuses are derived from and compared to THE Optimus, etc...

    I tend not to get caught up in "continuities" so much. G1 is a bit of an exception among TF series, because other lines tend to be explicitly and exclusively linked to their accompanying TV series or movies. G1 is not limited in that way... it's ended up being the nexus setting for cartoons and comics that are all distinct from each other.

    I haven't watched ANY TF series religiously... I haven't even seen every episode of the G1 cartoon. I've seen most of Beast Wars... once. I saw all of Animated seasons 1 & 2. I've only seen a handful of episodes from BM, RID, A/E/C. None of it is really especially good, so I don't feel obliged to dedicate myself to these fictions. But also none of it feels like "definitive" Transformers for me.

    For me, G1 is the toys themselves... that original cast of characters, as elaborated by Budiansky's profiles (still the best block of character writing in ANY TF branch), particularly from the first 3 years. It was a starting point. I don't care what happened in issue#31 or episode 10, season 2, or who died or what was revealed. None of that means anything to me.

    What matters are those original character bios and Tech Specs, because that was what my play was based on when I was 9 years old on my bedroom floor, surrounded by robots.

    I think that's why G1 "canon" for many fans is still largely "personal canon". Because that's how it all started.

    zmog
     
  7. AutoCon2076

    AutoCon2076 Brightest can in toolshed

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    I like Generation One, so I can't say this has happened to me.

    I don't think so. I grew up with the American cartoon and comic books; even as a kid I noticed that they weren't exactly the same. It was then that I decided to call it a multiverse and enjoyed the cartoon as a cartoon and the comic as a comic.

    I like the US & UK comics, the US G1 cartoon & Beast Wars, as well as the Japanese G1 cartoons starting with Headmasters and leading through Zone. What I'm not a large fan of is Beast Machines - but the main turn off for me on that was the look of the characters. Maybe now that I'm older I should one day sit down and re-watch them; after having stomached Bayformers I should be able to cope with Bob Skir's hippie-children.

    I don't know to be honest. Being anti-g1 is like hating your grandmother and wishing she'd never been born. Grandma made your mom. G1 made your (insert series here; RiD, Beast Wars, etc...). You don't have to love it, but you should at least respect it. RESPECT YO GRANDMA, FOO!

    Nah man. This is the internet - there will always be trolls. Most of the time people will intentionally bash something even they know is good just to watch the verbal backlash.

    ~Z
     
  8. grimlock1972

    grimlock1972 "No Mas" My Wallet

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    Never I like a variety of the Transformers series.

    No not really suckitude needs to measured by actual story quality not by if it is G1/G1 inspired or not.

    From fave to least fave : G1,TFA, BW,RID,Japanese series, movie 1,Unicron Trilogy,BM, ROTF
    Probably not as many of those who do not like G1 grew up other series being their intro to the fandom.

    Doubtful at best, anyway to each there own. There are enough Transformers continuities under Primus to satisfy all tastes.
     
  9. nemisispringer

    nemisispringer Well-Known Member

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    1. I like g1 so i cant answer this

    2. Ofcourse it can

    3. I like evreything except the live action movies this is incredibly annoying as whenever i say anything negative about the movies i am met with geewuner when actually i like a lot of continuities

    4. Unfortunateley i think people who are strictly g1 fans are the worst when criticising other coniniuties and not being open minded to them

    5.I can understand perfectley how the above can be very annoying and trust me there are plenty of fans that act like that (and ruin it for the rest of us)
     
  10. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    The debate that's so great it shows up every week.
     
  11. UltraMagnus3786

    UltraMagnus3786 That's what it is

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    hahah, I'm imagining a mini smog neck deep in robots and cardboard tech spec cutouts.
     
  12. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    Really?
    Please post links up for last weaks debate, the week prior, the week prior to that and the week before that one.
     
  13. transtrekkie

    transtrekkie On the level.

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    Exaggerations aside, at least this one is asking some decent questions and hasn't degenerated into flaming.

    1. G1 was my intro to the franchise so I can't really say, but I'm loathe to think of an example where I've ever seen this happen.

    2. Can a continuity suck for other reasons besides not being G1? You mean like bad writing, bad art, animation, voice acting or toy design? No. Not at all those would just be madness.

    3. I like pretty much everything. Not crazy about the bayverse, and I don't like Prime so far (Why no noses!?) but other than that I pretty much enjoy everything.

    4. I think so, but I think it's a rare occurance. I have seen fans of BW who entered the fandom with BW refer to people as being Geewunny, but I've only seen it happen once. I think most TF fans are fans of multiple continuities.

    5. I don't think there's a conspiracy. I think it's just a few childish individuals that lack the intelligence to articulate themselves maturely.
     
  14. KWFlange

    KWFlange You're So Jelly

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    Thanks guys.
    I just wanted to see what everyone thinks about this. I'm actually a little surprised that no one has answered yes to the first question thus far. I figured there has to be some one out there who dislikes both G1 as well as another series but has been accused of only hating said series because it is not G1.
    For example, they like the movie verse but dislike Animated.

    Also the underground campaign question is really more sarcasm than anything. It just seems that some times the person bringing up G1 hates it more than the original poster disliked whatever they were talking about...and SOOOOO many people just default onto this argument regardless of what is being discussed.
     
  15. transtrekkie

    transtrekkie On the level.

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    Well I don't think the first one ever happened. Most people who don't like G1 are usually pretty vocal about it and as such aren't usually gonna be harrassed for being Geewunny.

    The second question is hilarious as is the underground conspiracy one. :lol 
     
  16. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    I find it rather funny when no one has a good response in a debate and they have to fall on the "Geewun" insult. It might be the Transformers version of "I know you are but what am I".

    But yea I've been accused of being someone who is close minded and can never accept anything but G1. Doesn't matter that I really enjoyed Beast Wars, a few parts of Cybertron, some of new takes in the modern comic books, Animated, War for Cybertron, Transformers Prime, the updates in the Classics line, Power Core, and heck I've even pointed out some of the things the live action movies have done right.

    It is a bit confounding how people will make the assumption that you only love G1 if there is something that doesn't work for you or appeals to you in a series.
     
  17. Dran0n

    Dran0n Junk male

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    All the time! Prime's flames took something I cherished and loved, and stomped on it, took advantage of it, and stomped on it until it was dead ... just like me on the inside watching everything that wasn't G1. I mean, when G1 ended, I thought "Hey, this new show will totally rock!" Beast Wars didn't even have Optimus Prime! It was set in pre-historic times, and they all were animals! What the fuck is a Rhinox? HUFFER ALL THE WAY. Then Beast Machines came out! Same problems! What the hell is this animal stuff? I don't want it! The Armada! It was closer to G1 than BW, but the characters aren't the same! They got a total make-over! I want to see my cherished characters as they were years prior. Energon was even worse! What's this CGI shit? Who is "Kicker"? Cybertron continued this trend! What were they thinking? Trying to make Transformers hip and cool? Fuck no! I need my cheap 80's cartoon part deux! Then the movies. The movies. Oh, God. Everything was wrong. The Allspark Cube? Sector Seven? Um, excuse me, PRIME DOESN'T HAVE FLAMES. Good job, Micheal Bay. You fucking ruined it. You ruined my childhood. The best years of my life, you went a took a huge piss on. I mean, why? They look like giant spiders! Ratchet is green? WHY?!? Ironhide is black? Not a dumbass van, either? Jeez, Bay, you're some piece of work. Animated? The style was like Teen Titans! Optmus wasn't the leader! The hell man? Who the hell is Bulkhead, and why isn't he G1? I mean, fuck. ROTF? No, not another movie. That shit was lame. The Twins ... *sob*. WHY HASBRO? Why must you do this to me? I can't take this roller coaster of child rape! MAKE IT STOP. Prime? Why is Chromia called Arcee?!?!?!

    Exactly! I need a very similar plot. All I need is a new, updated G1. We don't need a brand new show! It'll ruin everything. It's took angular and skeletal! It should just be a power struggle. The Autobots and Decepticons competing for Energon. That's it. We don't need any fancy glasses mumbo-gumbo. G1 is what started it all. It's what got me into Transformers. It was a huge staple of my childhood! We need to leave it untouched, and continue along that same path. Kids today don't need those skeletal piece of Bay poop, they need G1. G1 is it, it had it ALL.

    I love Generation One! It was my life. My hobby. My childhood. I loved it so. The dialog was great! So well written, and the characters all fleshed out. The character development was simply stunning. The plots were very well thought out and very intricate. It would make Chris Nolan blush. None can compare to these plots. I mean, they put up an honest effort, but they failed, all of them. The animation could not compare. It's so smooth and fluid. They thought of it all! The way they morph into robots! Size wasn't even an issue! They had that shit down! I would have my mind blown every day after school by the pure animation secks! All five frames a minute! I-I was humbled.

    Didn't like:
    Beast Wars - The writing was terrible. The characters were as interesting as this tape measure by the computer. The animation was terrible. I hated it.
    Beast Machines - Everything about BW, but even worse!
    Armada - The animation was top notch. 10 frames minute. Too bad the robots were G1. Next.
    Energon - CGI? WHERE'S THE G1?
    Cybertron - Same shit! Who is Primus? Nuh-uh. That shit ain't G1. Don't even try, Hasbro.
    TFTM - No.
    Animated - Weird Al? Fucking Eric, man. Why isn't Prime the leader? Why isn't Bee a bug? Why is it set in a CITY in DETROIT?
    ROTF - Devastator isn't a dog. Those giant, walking scrap-heaps are not the robots we know and love. They need to be damned to Hell!
    Prime - Movies plus Cybertron. Fuck. No.

    I love G1 more than anything. I'd rather save my Prowl than my newborn child. I couldn't fill you in from this stand point. They're just jealous that we had the better show, I suppose. I mean, poor kids. They have those scary looking monsters, while we had the greatness of G1. They were so cool! They has nice, sleek designs, but still ruled! One doesn't need to be a fucked up metal bog-troll to be a cool looking dude. The simplicity was great! The plot was unmatched! The utter chaos of the power struggle. I felt the suspense. It was a white-knuckle ride, unlike Animated. I didn't care the Optimus died. The real Optimus wouldn't give up so easily. Bitch had it coming. G1 is an example of a damn-near perfect cartoon. I lied. It has reached ultimate perfection. Nothing was wrong with out beloved Gen. 1.

    No! So long as I am shooting up ground up G1 DVD's, there will be no conspiracy plot to sabotage the fanbase. Geewun must live on forever, and one day, we will win. G1 forever, friends. I will teach my children to love Geewun, and despise everything else. Then they will pass it down, like mutant Geewun gene. The whole family tree will hate everything else, and my offspring, and their offspring will teach others the way. Before too long, there will only be GEEWUN, and everything else Transformer will shut down, and the brand will live in purity forever. Why would fans with such GREAT taste undermine themselves? Will G1 become such a massive phenomenon that it actually collapse in on it's self like dying star? I'd rather have that happen then endure more shitty cartoons and terrible movies.

    Those are my answers. Thank you.
     
  18. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    I would, but as a meat popscicle who takes everything literally, you would be unable to understand and respond. You see, popscicles don't have eyes or sentience.


    G1 is the go-to universe, I would argue by nature of it being the first. This means that the transformers concept was originally designed for the G1 universe, and fits there most comfortably. It also means that another continuity must find ways which deviate from the normal universe in order to set it apart, which, although they can open the door to new possibilities and fresh ideas, can also run the risk of the concept being less effective. G1 also has an advantage in being the first contunity developed in that it has had the most time to BE developed, and has had more attention in terms of shows and comics than most other continuities put together. This means (especially for a good chunk of the users on this board, who were exposed to G1 first) that G1 is the most familiar continuity, it feels the most "right" to many people, because that's what they associate with the transformers concept.

    These things don't make G1 the best universe, but nor do they make it overrated either. I think the most major problem in the "GEEWUN" debate that I really get on board with (and yes, there are a few, including that much of the older material has aged poorly for a older audience without nostalgia towards it) is what seems to be a requirement for the same characters doing the same things in the same situations, because that's what worked before. The original G1 publications (comics, cartoon, etc) contained a wide cast of characters, who were surprisingly well-developed and varied even in their short tech-specs (albeit somewhat formulaic and archetypical at times), but even then, there's only so much ground you can tread with them, especially when many of the stories are limited to a smaller "core" set of characters. In the current interpretations of G1, how many characters can we say were successfully introduced over the last 5-8 years? And how many characters have been significantly reinterpreted in that same period as G1 has been "rebooted" over and over (for bonus points, how many significant reinterpretations have not involved making a character more "gritty" or "badass")? Compare that to the number of core characters with essentially the same characterization from 1984-1986. In a lot of cases, G1 feels stagnant to me, like its the same comfortable stories over and over again rather than something that really pushes the boundaries of a group of ever-reconfiguring space robots engaged in civil war.

    To contrast, I felt that Beast Wars and Animated, for example, both took the best elements of G1 and reinterpreted the settings, the characters, and the stories, creating something that was new and fresh, but at the same time felt like they belonged under the Transformers brand. They weren't exactly the same, they didn't try to be, and in doing so they gained a lot of freedom to create situations and themes that hadn't really been touched on before. Granted, the great writing and performances helped, but the core idea was what really created a solid foundation.

    The OP makes a good point in that for many people, interests have become polarized. Some crowds DO shit on everything that isn't their extremely myopic image of what TF should be (and I'm generalizing here, but let's use S1-S2 G1 animated series as an example of what that is for now), and as a result of these negative nancy nosecones, people on the other side of the spectrum become reactionary, and "GEEWUN" becomes what we know it as today, essentially a slur. But the problem isn't that people are hating too much or too little on G1, it's that people aren't paying attention and giving things a change, either to what else is out there, or to what people are saying.

    Can something suck for reasons other than it being G1? Most certainly. Look at Energon. Bad writing, bad characterizations, bad voice acting, bad animation errors, hell, bad toys (though there were a few good ones), Energon didn't do a whole lot right, and all the G1 homages they could fit into it couldn't save that show. As much as there are people out there who'll never admit it, there are G1 episodes that are nearly unwatchable for the same reasons, and if anything, Energon sucked because it was similar to them.

    Though the OP raises an interesting question or two, even the wording of his questions seems to indicate the kind of polarization I was talking about earlier. The wording paints the "geewunner" as a maligned paragon, a connoisseur of perfection (deviation from which will lead to the suck), beset on all sides by a nebulous conspiracy just out to make them look bad, rather than having rational opinions and personal tastes. The OP has a pretty wide array of interests and a pretty open-minded attitude, but the way he puts his questions is pretty close to how some people around here really seem to see things.
     
  19. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    I don't have any old pictures to document it, unfortunately, but that's not far from the truth. :) 

    Uh... ability-to-spot-levity/exaggeration FAIL? I don't think anybody really needed to take that comment literally. :rolleyes2 

    zmog
     
  20. mmhand

    mmhand Well-Known Member

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    I admit that I am partial to G1. After all, it is what I grew up with. To me, the G1 version of the characters (especially in appearance) will always be the most authentic versions of the characters.

    I guess I could liken it to superhero comic characters. Tomorrow they could create a new version of Spider-man that keeps some of the same concepts of the original character but change up the design, setting, and personality. They might be able to tell compelling stories with this new version of Spider-man but I would never be able to perceive this character to be as authentic as the original comic version. Similarly, no Optimus Prime in another continuity will ever have the same pull for me as the original version.

    With that being said, I have enjoyed most of the other continuities. Even the Bay movies. BW was particularily special and i have high hopes for Prime. In fact the only series I have not really enjoyed have been the ones produced in Japan.

    At the end of the day though, I would want nothing more than a true reinvention of G1 using the original appearance of the characters, some of the more memorable character traits (ie, Starscream being a traitor), some nods to the voices from the original cartoon (ie Prime being Peter Cullen and Starscream sounding like Chris Latta) but then going wild from that point on. I think there are so many story possibilities that go beyond any of the G1 fictions.
     

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