The Good Film In ROTF - What Went Wrong and How It Can Be Fixed for TF3

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Master Fwiffo, Oct 2, 2009.

  1. Master Fwiffo

    Master Fwiffo Bonecrusher Hates You

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    WARNING: OPINIONS AHEAD

    Rewatching ROTF, I realized something. In ROTF, there are large portions of the film that I can consider among the best Transformer's we've ever gotten.

    And now that you've got pitchforks aimed in my direction...

    ROTF is a deeply flawed film. I don't think anybody can really disagree with that. But what stuns me the most is the inconsistency of ROTF's flaws. Watch the NEST scene at the beginning, and compare it to Sams College Antics, and you can hardly believe these two scenes are part of the same film. Watching the final half hour, and judging just on that alone, I'd be tempted to call it the second best half-hour of Transformers ever, behind only Code of Hero. But just another half hour earlier, and the film was dragging, plodding and dull. What's going on here?

    The way I see it, there are 3 primary problems with ROTF. 2 of these I believe will not be as much an issue in TF3.

    Here we go. Problem 1: Bays sense of humor. Sorry folks, that ain't going nowhere. Just give up right now, and focus on the other two.

    2: The Inconsistency of the Pacing. ROTF comes up at you in Waves of Awesome padded between Waves of Dullness. And I think I figured out why. The scenes that Michael Bay would have liked most - the NEST scene, the Forrest Fight, the Final Battle in the Desert - were well paced, thrilling, and had decent-to-good editing. The parts he didn't care about - the college scenes, the hunt for the Matrix - were slow and plodding. This could be a flaw in Bay's character but I think there's something else behind this (Not to say Bays character doesn't have flaws, but I digress). And that leads us to the third, most pressing problem.

    3) The Film Was Rushed. ROTF was being worked on right to the latest possible deadline, and it shows. The reason the slower parts of the film weren't edited down, shortened and sharpened, and so forth, was mostly because They Ran Out Of Time. Due to the writers strike and Paramounts demands, the parts of the film Bay considered non-essential didn't go through nearly as much work as Bays favorite action sequences - and coincidently, the best put together parts of the film - did. Why? Bay wanted to get the parts he cared about the most right, while the parts he didn't were left at the wayside. I also believe this is the reason for several of the films bigger story flaws - character disappearance, for one. Because they were more focused on editing the action scenes, those other ones got pushed aside.

    Problems two and three - the rush job and the inconsistency - may or may not be a problem for TF3. But as there is no writers strike pushing back the filming date, it's very probable that the 3'd Transformers movie will likely be a more coherent film, and that the dragging pace and distractions will not be such a large problem.

    I want to again stress that there is a *lot* of good stuff in ROTF. It seems to be overshadowed by Twins and Balls and lord knows what else, but watch the NEST scenes. Watch the Forrest Fight. Watch the Decepticon Arrival. Watch the entire battle in the desert, from Devastator to the drawn battle lines. The battle in the desert is really a feat as far as TF goes. For the first time in a non-comic medium, it's actually portrayed as a war between Autobots (and their human allies) and the Decepticons - not a fist fight, not a gang skirmish, but an actual war where bots (and humans) on both sides are dropping left and right. Watching it again, the details and motions of the two sides are just awesome. I'd like to see more, much more, of that.

    Though the crass humor will likely still remain, I maintain hope that TF3 will be better because it won't be rushed.

    You can flame me now.
     
  2. Primesfist

    Primesfist Well-Known Member

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    Mate, I couldn't agree with you more. I've been waiting for someone to voice my opionions on ROTF and you have very eruditely put it!!!
     
  3. aussiehippy

    aussiehippy Au contraire, Blackadder.

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    Yeah, you're not too far off there.
     
  4. Primesfist

    Primesfist Well-Known Member

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    Well said dude!
     
  5. smkspy

    smkspy is one nice fucking kitty

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    Agreed, with the exception of the Final Battle battle being well paced. It went on forever, and really didn't seem to make much sense. Random things happen just so MB could get some cool shots. Example, the Insecticon scene.

    Though I called for it ROTF, and I'm calling it now. Everyone damn well knows that what we're getting for the 3 film is ROTF to the 10th power. Accept it now cause NOTHING is going to be changed.
     
  6. Darthbane2007

    Darthbane2007 Well-Known Member

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    Isn't there like a bajillion threads where people state what went wrong in ROTF?
     
  7. Nachtsider

    Nachtsider Banned

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    The good film in ROTF is buried under so much garbage that I cannot find it.
     
  8. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    A shorter film might help. Action films aren't really a good place to go long unless you are going to have the movie filled with character. Special effects no matter how well done can only carry a film so far before it gets boring. So the forest battle worked because it was just the right length, the battle in Egypt was boring because it just went on and on and on.

    Not sure that extra time is really going to help make T3 better because Micheal Bay really doesn't change as a director and we don't really have a good writer this time.
     
  9. Primesfist

    Primesfist Well-Known Member

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    It's the annoying human elements of the films which spoil the pace of the story and detract from it's overall value.
     
  10. Attacker_Prime

    Attacker_Prime Optimus Prime forever

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    This. Less of humans, more of transformers.
     
  11. Primesfist

    Primesfist Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I'm not saying have no humans in the film, because would just be a CGI film (practically), just cut out the stupid humour and pointless scenes - like the college scenes, the roadblock on the Egyptian border. Pointless and daft.
     
  12. KingStarscream9

    KingStarscream9 Destroy

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    yeah I agree with author.what is more I hate when in one scene robot is in its place,but in second scene he is missing if camera is concentrated to human talking trough the radio or smth(there is no robot in the background,where he was the last time).and overally it was hard to understand where are autobots,it was like 3-5 scenes where we could see ironhide,1-3 scenes of archee,1 scene of jolt,few of rachet...that ruined feeling that robots "are there".I could really feel the deadline and how things were rushed-characters were placed only if that was really really really necassary.
    Other thing about Final battle were those random desepticon protoforms,they all were the same looking with blackout's head.they looked too random for me and were there just to die.

    (I talked about finnal battle scenes)
     
  13. DecepticonSpike

    DecepticonSpike Kimber/Stormer Fanboy

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    You make some very valid points, and I agree, for the most part. The pacing did seem off. One example I can think of off of the top of my head was the "Sam's mom gets stoned" scene. It could have been cut way down.

    I doubt the crude humor was be toned down for TF3, since it's been in the first 2. I can over look it.
     
  14. mx-01 archon

    mx-01 archon Well-Known Member

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    I made this post on your Allspark thread, too, but I thought I'd repost here just to help further the discussion:

    The one thing I didn't like so much about the final battle is that there was no dramatic weight or real threat to the spectacle. It just kinda plateau'd there, and while fun to watch, didn't have the same kind of suspense to it that Movie 1's Mission City battle did.

    I think the major misuse of the sequence was Devastator. He was the movie's showpiece, but in the end, he didn't really have much to do. He only fought the twins, then got done in by a giant cannon from nowhere. I think, more ideally, he could have been built up more by giving more showtime to the individual Constructicons. The opening Demolishor chase was great. Now if there were a few other high-profile scenes of at least some of the other Constructicons wreaking similar havoc, then their final merge into Devastator would have been lent much more weight. The railgun kill could have been kept, but again, put more oomph into it, rather than the "point and shoot" death. Have more of the military and some of the Autobot forces come in to harrass him more, so that they can pin him down for the killing blow, something like that.

    The other major issue for me is that, despite being the major big-bad, The Fallen himself wasn't quite menacing enough. There wasn't enough done to build up his aura of evil. There was the prologue, but then he spends most of the movie in this decrepit heap on the Decepticon colony, which severely undermines the malice. I think a "sealed evil in a can" treatment would have been better for him.

    While not immediately glaring, I think Starscream should have gotten a better showing in the final battle. His scenes in the first movie were spectacular, and he didn't really get to show off at all here. It would have made the scenes of the army taking potshots at the Decepticlone army more palatable, if that while it looked like the military was holding the grunts at bay well enough, Starscream would just swoop in and take out tanks and artillery and make things a real mess until the Autobots could hold him off.



    Really, though, in the end, I didn't find the movie that bad. Somewhat tiring overuse of crass humour, but it filled the non-action scenes with a decent amount of laughs. At the very least, it was generally witty crass humour, and not "how many boob, penis, and poop jokes can we cram into this timeslot?". Everything up through the forest fight was great. It just needed a bit more stuff going on through the "Matrix Quest" segment, and something along the lines of the aforementioned changes to make the final fight more weighty. I think it had all the parts needed to make a really great movie, it just needed a bit more time to assemble them in a more skillful manner.
     
  15. shroobmaster

    shroobmaster Well-Known Member

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    Devastator scene was shit because of the wasted potential.

    First Devastator gets the most awesome intro ever, then RIGHT AFTER the twins start to get better, WHAT DO THEY DOOO? Makes 'em disappear and kills Devastator out of nowhere.

    CONGRATULATIONS!!!1

    L O L
     
  16. Prowl

    Prowl Well-Known Member

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    Nah, dude, I loved the movie, but I agree with everything you say. The only flame coming from me is the one from my ass after I eat wings for lunch
     
  17. mx-01 archon

    mx-01 archon Well-Known Member

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    I'd forgotten about the twins there. After pretty much redeeming themselves fighting Devastator (actually backing up their trash talking) valiantly, the poor guys are promptly forgotten about :/.
     
  18. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    More time and thought when sitting at the word processor can fix more screenplay ills than any CGI program.
     
  19. Black Oracle

    Black Oracle Black Convoy's Dark Angel

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    It's nice that Master Fwiffo has highlighted some of the good things in ROTF that alot of us have overlooked: the Shanghai N.E.S.T., forest and final Egypt battle scenes. Those i agree were the most awesome parts of the movie that gave us the kind of TFs action that we all wanted to see. It's just a shame that they had to share movie space with crude dumb humour, lots of other unnecessary plot threads and pacing problems.

    I certainly agree that ROTF would have benefitted from cutting down some of it's dragging parts, such as the search for the Matrix where Sam and co. were basically just running and driving around Egypt for a while. That, combined with a slow build-up to the final Egypt battle, just went on on for too long in an unengaging way.

    I certainly hope that Master Fwiffo is right about TF3 being able to improve on the inconsistency and rushed elements at least.
     
  20. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    Perhaps they need a plan for the third movie that the Decepticons have some chance at pulling off.

    The first movie there was always some chance of Megatron getting the Cube because even if he did get it perhaps the Autobots would still find a way to stop him or perhaps he could not bend the Cube to his will and something bad would happen to Megatron. The second film though there was no way the Decepticons were going to get to take out the Sun and leave no room at all for a third film.

    The third film could really use a bit of that tension of oh my gosh maybe the bad guys will win instead of such a forgone conclusion that they will win with little effort.
     

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