i think my inner motives for starting this thread is because i do not know how to give the critical part without coming across as an ass. the positive aspect of it is easy for me.

big hank and autobotx23 bring out good points in the give to receive aspect.

it looks to be a rather consensuses that you develop a group of trusted friends to do this.

 

It's important to include a few statements about what has worked and not just go directly to what might be changed.

I find that phrasing is very important. Take these two statements that say the exact same thing.
1: "The paint is clumpy. You need to thin it down more."
2: "I like where this is headed. Good color choices. I might suggest thinning the paint down a tad in the future. There are different thinning agents you can use, depending on the kind of paint you're using. I think you'll find that you end up with a much smoother finish."

I hope it's obvious which of the two statements would, in most cases, come across as the easier pill to swallow. There's a good chance the recipient would respond to the 2nd statement more openly. While the 1st statement may be true, it offers no suggestions in the way of solving the observed problem. The 2nd statement not only offers an alternative method, but also encourages the recipient by way of suggesting the new method might bring a better result and greater satisfaction with future efforts.

 

I use to feel this way, but with all the awesome people here.
I learned that nobody here is "upper-tier" everyone makes mistakes.
There are Radicons with greater skills then others, but no one Radicon embodies the spirit of the Radicons
& with out us all the Radicons could not exist.

Edit:
PK & myself where just talking about this.

Sometimes a comment worded the wrong way can deter a "noob" basher from continuing with bashing,
on the flip side a lack of feedback or comments can also frustrate somebody starting up.
I found this very frustrating at the start. I would post a thread get 416 views & 9 replies & 2 of them were my own.

 

I say what comes to mind, whether it be good or bad, or just an idea. I really could care less what other's think of my comment, it is meant as a comment, nothing more.

Noone should take offense to anything 1 person says, it won't be the end of the world if someone doesn't like what you have done. If you dont agree with the comment, confront it rationally,. ask why they dont like it, or ignore it, they usually go away amidst the good, the bad usually fades away.

I have had issues with people not liking my opinions, but they have to deal with the fact that these are public forums, so take the good with the bad or stop posting.

usually when i get bad criticizm I take it as a challenge to do better the next time. I am not going to cave in and stop what i'm doing . most of the time if someone doesnt like what i have done, if they presented it where i can see the benefit of doing it their way, i take it into consideration.

I got alot of complaints that I painted my Devastator yellow, but it was my preference. DEAL WITH IT

I also got criticizm that it was too thin, I didnt see it at first, but he WAS so i am bulking him up. CONSIDERED AND APPROVED

then I got straight up angry comments that i wasn't doing it exactly how others had, meaning i was stupid for doing so. IGNORED

never in my mind did i take it as a threat against myself or my work. nor did i attack them privately.

sometimes I dont elaborate on what i dont like about a custom when it might hurt the sale, or hurt the customizer. sometimes you have to take skill AND sensitivity into account. If someone is selling something to make a few extra bucks I dont mind speaking my mind. but if they are "professional" I keep my negative comments to myself. LESSON LEARNED. Not that my mind has changed either way. sometimes you have to test the waters, post your mind on good or bad. but Admins and Mods are the ones that have the power to stop Egomaniacs and such. it's their choice to kick them off or not. I do have to say that I dont feel as safe here as i do on other sites, because alot more "pros" post here.

personally if someone can't handle a critique they dont belong in the public eye, I equate it to celebrities that cry about the paparrazi , SHUT UP you're famous, you gave up your privacy when you made $50 million bucks in your last movie, yeah the one where the world saw you naked! it makes no sense. go be a hermit and make your toys so noone can see them but yourself . stupid tom cruise....err i mean. yeah rant over

my 2 cents, I have a 98 more

 

thanks man good point , and i totally agree with your other statement that you said before this one.

i agree however a fresh noob to the art does not need to be cut to ribbons and should feel OK about posting. so i guess thats the conundrum. i guess one could look at there other work to see at what level they are at and use that as a basis for a critique

 

Wow....excellent topic Anovasinn  

Well, here's my standpoint on the issue.

I have always said, that first and most importantly, make the custom for you. Make it how you want it to be. Its your custom. As long as you are happy, that's all that should matter. If we like it, that should only be a bonus.

Now that I have said that. I myself will bounce idea's off of fellow Radicons here. NP, SQ7, AX23, Redline, we all take to each other outside of Radicons from time to time. And we shoot idea's at each other, and ask for input just to make sure that we are on the right track with the idea we have....and its done constructively, even though we are all "close" to each other.

There is a way to critique. TimShinn hit the nail on the head with it. Saying something sucks because "______" and that's it, isn't a critique in my book. That's more of a slam against it. When you offer friendly advice as to how to make improvements, that is a critique in my book.

Then you have the "n00b" factor.

We were all new to this at one point. Now that I look at it, my first custom kinda sucked....I really didn't know what I was doing, and only had some old experience in model cars.

If the guys back then all would have came along and said just negative remarks, with no supporting statements as to where I could improve, I may have just quit right there. You do have to be mindful of what you say.

The thing is, that as artist ourselves, we should have the ability to see the potential there in a "n00b" to be a great basher. You don't stomp on a flower when its trying to grow....you nurture it.

Perfect example. I know of two bashers that kinda had a rough start, one more than the other....but I saw the potential in both of them. I'm sure others did too..... I did my part to nurture them, I didn't tell them stuff like "you're doing it wrong....you need to quit" it was comments like, "hey man, it looks good, maybe next time, try this method....it works for me, maybe it will work for you" or "this one is definitely looking good!" These two Radicons continued in their work, and got better and better. They were nurtured and supported....and now, its like wow....

I can say that these two bashers are now season pro's and award winners.

So, do I think it matters how you say it?....yes I do. It could make or break someone....And no, you don't have to sugar coat every word you say, you can speak your mind, just be respectful when you do it. Put yourself in their shoes before you speak on it....how would you feel?....would you take it with a grain of salt and move on?....would you be pissed?...

Think, then react....you can get better results with honey than you can with poop.

 

I think the word you're looking for is "newb" not "n00b".
"newb"=New guy.
"n00b"=Lame attempt at insulting.

 

Nope, I called myself a NooB from day one.

 

this is one of the pointless comments I was talking about, it serves no purpose, we all knew what he was saying. if someone made a transformer out of pure gold (the metal, not the color) would we then argue that it didnt fit the G1 color scheme, ugh.

and yes trashing someone NEW at the craft is totally wrong, I dealt with alot when i started, and if I had a wweaker will to succeed , I probably would have stopped doing this. but most people say " this is my 1st custom" anyone attacking after that should be immediately suspended.

 

Wow....according to the Urban Dictionary, you sir are correct!....my bad.

I never knew that different spellings of that word resulted in different meanings....I was such a newb!!!....see I learned something there!!

 

And btw Alphamagnus, in your siggy....love your MOTU TF's....those are awesome looking!!

 

 

ALPHAMAGNUS, while I understand what you're saying and agree on a level, when persons sign up to this forum they subscribe to a set of rules. One such rule is "think before you post." This rule is not simply "using cognitive capacities prior to typing and pushing the 'reply' button", rather it is weighing the consequences of ones words and interactions before posting them. Even though someone posts on a public forum doesn't mean they get a free-for-all with what is said. "Freedom of speech" isn't a "'say-what-I-want-and-get-away-with-it' badge" (hehe). I'd say that the rules of the forum directly denote that. Everyone has opinions and are entitled to them, but if those are posted in such a way as to attack a person and/or their work, they are prohibited from the start. One of the foundations of the Radicons community is being polite and respectful.

While I may very well think that something "sucks", merely posting "that piece sucks because the paint is gloppy and looks like utter crap" has a high level of potential to offend the artist. All the example post there is about there is the person posting to express their ego and opinion, with the vector of being belligerent and crude. The only person that is served with a post like that is the person who is posting. Constructive criticism helps all involved when employed correctly.

You are very correct when you say that there are several here whose skill level is very advanced, and that should deter no one from posting. This also means, however, that there are no "celebrities" here. Radicons is not the platform for such. If a Radicon becomes well-known for his/her work, that's great and we support that, but it's not a thrust of this board. Even things such as "Featured Radicon of the Month" are places that focus more on educating the customs community about an artist who has contributed a great deal to the Radicons community rather than "worship this person". Sure, we are shining the spotlight on a person, but that's not to say that the main goal is to make that artist a "celebrity".

As far as "professional" work (work that is made to generate monies), I'd say that the pendulum swings in the opposite direction. Those are the pieces that are really being put on the operation table, and an artist that is professional enough to sell a piece is therefore upping the game enough to take a "professional" level of critique. In the professional art world of graphic design, work submitted for the exchange of money submits itself to being picked apart until the product is suitable for commercial use. Someone paying thousands of dollars for artwork. While one who creates artwork as a "hobby" certainly deserves a "professional"-type critique, there is no need to be brutal in doing so. Personally, I've never liked the harshness of the professional art world anyways, but there is little I can do about that; Radicons is a different story.

As far as being "constructive" that's not the same thing as saying "you must say things positive at all times". However, criticism isn't always saying what's negative either. Being honest and being brutally honest are two different things (even though they are both forms of honesty). The goal of a good, professional-level criticism is to point out what works and what doesn't while offering advice on what can be improved in the most objective way as possible. The Radicons Staff has just made it a mission to have things as professional as possible, but placing community above this as well; being considerate of others is the mark of a Radicon. One of the ways we ensure a friendly, constructive vibe here is through how we critique and interact with others' work  

 

wow your insight on customs created for profit was one of the aspects i was fishing for and did not know that i was. i have gained a philosophy on this based from a adult cartoon i seen. the master told the pupil> "it does not matter how good you paint but what you choose to paint" when i heard that a light bulb went off and i had a moment of clarity. the same thing happened with your statement on the brutality of the commercial art world thanks for that.

something PK said rang true as well. several times in my life i had the opportunity to teach someone what i knew. when i was a teen i was very brutal teaching someone then later when i would teach someone i would not be. the way i did this was pouring all my focus on the good aspects and only pointing out the flaws briefly. as before when i was a teen it was quite the opposite

 

I understnad everything said here, and I believe that was the point of this discussion. I would have to say I have only dealt with a few bad apples on any site i post to (usually the same bad apples , mind you). the over all radicon "feel" is a great one, most people are all about the spreading of ideas and suggestions. complimenting those that do what they enjoy.

but the reason for this thread is that a few radicons on here don't take anything aside from glorious jubilation on their work as acceptable, those are the ones that need to calm down on the ego trip. not so much they are celebrities, but for every oscar winning actor there is always a "Snow dogs" in their closet.

I am taking this practice into posting. If i honestly critique a person's work, and they flip out, I am NEVER posting in their threads. if you don't like my criticizm, you can't have my praise.

SQ7 and all of the staff here, you guys are class-acts and don't deserve to be put in the position of "who said something they shouldn't " but it's going to happen ,again and again, until that person crosses the thin red line. I have seen it happen a few times. pretty much i see customs boards as a "work friendly environment" think of it like this, if this artist was on the job and said the same thing to another worker, would he still have a job.
well saying someone's work "sucks" probably wouldn't get someone fired, but continually being negative, while neglecting to explain why the work "sucks" , plus never actually showing what they have been doing. wil most definately get someone canned. it's not a 1 time thing, if someone posts negative in everyone's threads, and never shows 1 peice they have done , i see a major problem there. judge lest ye be judged. If i wanted to i could go from thread to thread dumping on every custom to make myself feel better, as long as i NEVER show anything I have accomplished(if any) I'll be safe to dump again.

I totally agree with you on the professional aspect, everytime a new product is sold anywhere, it is put under the microscope. customs are no different, but when an F-150 fails a safety test Ford doesn't harass the guy that found the flaw until he almost gets sick from guilt for doing his job. as I said I don't post in "pros" thread unless i say a quip of "nice job" because I have been continually harassed and ridiculed for doing so. I don't need that in my life. On a side note, I had thought about going Pro awhile back, luckily I decided I like the hobby to much to sell my spine for it.

PK thanx, I would post it here, but that breaks the contest rules. my sig and avatar are all I can show here. Jaf asked if he could use it for promotional material, so it's the only "exposed" custom for the event. I have 6 more MOTU crossovers already in the works. 1 i will post here, because it isn't a transformer, just a motu toy with tf armor, which isn't in the contests guidelines as an acceptable submission anyways.

 

I think constructive criticism is vital to both artist and fellow 'bashers alike. We all feed off one another whether we know it or not and when someone drops an idea onto the forums, it affects countless people, be it a simple idea or the completed project. Commenting on these is what keeps everything flowing and helps the artist understand what they have done good and what can POSSIBLY be done to improve upon it. I'm an artist who believes that ALL art is "good" and while all art is subjective, we can all learn a lot from straight forward comments that don't attack, but offer help.

It's great seeing people who love your work and I'm all for positive reactions and comments, but I'm also the type that wants to hear some true thoughts on it so I can learn how to do it better next time. Or to at least learn some new tricks in the process. I tend to be positive with 99% of my comments because I want to give everyone that positive push to continue their hard work and strive to do better each time. When necessary, I do mention the things that could be done a bit better........BUT, then again, who am I to judge really? I'm not a "professional", but I like to think I do good work. But criticism does help the individual artist, so I offer it when I feel the need to comment on something I really enjoy.

I don't enjoy seeing people blast others for something not being "perfect" simply because they have a certain vision for it in their own eyes. If someone creates a custom the way they want it, more power to 'em. That's what it's all about, creating the stuff you love that either wasn't created or doing something new and original. We all have our own visions on how we want to do our customs, so I guess that's where I applaud the hard work and effort that is put into them, no matter how technical or simple they may be. The only things I tend to truly share constructive criticisms on are the paint jobs and the thought process that led to the creative artwork. I still believe everyone does good work, but there are times when you do see something that is just leaps and bounds better than others. I still share my thoughts on it and my admiration for the piece and artist who did it.

Call me crazy, but I just don't want to be too negative on anything. So I try to help through helpful and positive comments that will make the artist not only feel good about what they've created, but also keep them coming back to show what they've learned through our help. This is a great topic and I do believe that most everyone I've seen here (especially lately) tends to give good constructive criticism without being overly negative.

 

ALPHAMAGNUS, if you feel anyone ever insults or attacks you in Radicons, simply use the "report bad post" feature in the post in question underneath a person's profile (the little "!" triangle). Radicons is mostly a great place, but as you've said, every board has it's few who like to keep the pot stirred. Moderation is our jobs, and we've set our rules and standards for everyone to go by. Mostly, we just keep everyone in check. Rarely, we have to just take care of business.

Also, thanks for the props to myself as well as pk and RL. We really do but our best efforts in all we do here (and I'll give a shout out to both pk and RL for the work they do while I'm at it; great work, guys!  ). I was a bit anxious that my previous post came across a tad harsh, but I had faith that it would fall on a welcoming and understanding mind. Thanks for being a great Radicon, bud.  

hxc, I would like to simply comment on "good" art for a moment. I strongly contend that everything in our existence is "art" (and "the arts" being the separated category that most associate the actual craft and work generated by specialty skills, such as kitbashing). However, I can also make a stronger case for "good" and "bad" art. Art, by nature, follows its own set of principles (line, shape, texture, etc.), and "good" art reflects those well. Also, "good" art is to be associated with "good" morals. I'm afraid in our world of modernity much of this is lost and needs reclaiming. Anyways, I feel at this point that's all I need to discuss on that topic.

I would like to just reiterate the main points of constructive criticism to be both honest and considerate/kind. I've just found that often times the same things can be said both positively and negatively. Also, life is about dealing with the good and the bad. Personally, when I post a project, I'm thrilled when people enjoy it as much as I do. I've also been privileged enough to benefit from someone telling me something that's not working well and could be better. I've also been the victim of people who are just rude and inconsiderate (leaving me to wonder, "ok, I understand you don't like my work, but help me out here! What is it that is bothering you about my work?").

On the other side of the coin, I enjoy being generous with my praise. More often than not, I don't have a lot of time to post a detailed critique of the majority of the threads I venture in nowadays. However, I do like to be upbeat and keep a discussion going. Good or bad, I do enjoy seeing others' work. More importantly, I really care about people and want them to feel valued for their art and their person. I feel since this is a public forum, I have that opportunity. All this and Transformers too  

 

imo (which is,just an opinion) long story short:
good: By the looks of it, your paint is chipping, you can avoid this by using dullcote or glosscote before re-assembling your custom, i also don't really "feel" that head for [insert character here], but that's all your choice to make. Other than that, nice custom and welcome aboard the cut-up-everything-you-can-for-parts train.
Bad: shit, that's bad. Not even sealed. And that head just doesn't work for [insert character] at all.

 

Damnit, I've been using the wrong word..uhh oh well shit happens. I didn't realize, but now I do so thanks. Does anyone kinda realize that using constructive criticism is almost like using the Golden Rule, treat the people like you wanted to be treated or something like that. And after reading almost every single one of this comments and I've got to say that I totally agree with all you guys and thats the truth.

 

it wasn't on here, or you would have been notified. trust me

 

about the difference between newb and noob. Don't worry I don't need to be notified, but thanks though.

 

that wasn't what he was getting at. *L* But it's alright, we don't like barbs here (other than friendly ones from one good friend to another).

My stance on the issue is that you should always be polite, use good manners. If I see something I don't like, either A) I keep my mouth shut, or B) I say I don't like it, with an explanation as to WHY I don't like it, coupled with suggestions on how that reason could be addressed. If the reason I don't like something is purely subjective (like aethetically pleasing to my eye, or "cheated") I generally go with A. If I do have to post a B, then I always make sure I pad it with good comments as well. I know I would get upset if someone came into one of MY threads and was a jerk, so why would it be ok for me to go around and be a jerk in others' threads?

At the same time, there are people who simply can NOT take criticisms, regardless if they are constructive or not (or even a slight nitpick). People who can't take anything like that at all really don't have any business sharing their work in a puplic venue, as what can you expect? There's just no way you can make ANYthing and reasonably expect it to be loved by every single person, its just not possible.