The ACTUAL Character vs. Homage

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by kissmekillme, May 13, 2006.

  1. kissmekillme

    kissmekillme Well-Known Member

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    Reading through the thread questioning the need for Classics when we've had many G1 homages lately, I've noticed something. A lot of people say they're more interested in Classics because it is updated forms for the "actual" G1 Characters. This seems to make Classics Hot Rod more legitimate than, say, Energon Rodimus. I'm hearing terms like pale immitation thrown around.

    I've got to ask...why? Why does it matter so much what the official fiction is? Would Energon Rodimus, who is obviously an update on the old theme rather than just, say, Powerlinx Hotshot's homage-y paint scheme, be more loved if they said it was an updated G1 Rodimus? If I want E. Rodimus to be G1 Rodimus, he is. Why can't the homages just be the G1 characters in people's heads? Why do they have to be immitations?
     
  2. Ramberk Magnus

    Ramberk Magnus Well-Known Member

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    That's an interesting comparison you made with Energon Rodimus and G1 Rodimus because I actually like E-Rodimus more then G1 (character wise and toy wise).

    In regards to your question-- the answer is: its all about attachment to the character. E-Rodimus is NOT G1 Rodimus. Every homage we've had since Armada has been an HOMAGE. They look similar but they are the same NOT THE SAME CHARACTER as the original.

    Ask any G1 fan if they like Armada Prime or Energon Prime or Cybertron Prime better then G1 Prime. What do you think they'll tell you? Each of those Primes is arguably a better toy then G1 Prime. But you'll be hard pressed to convince anyone that those Primes were better leaders then G1 Prime.

    So, its about the character and their G1 legitimacy.

    IMO, it is foolish to overlook an homage because its the not the 'real' character. But at the same time, there is foolish sentimental attachment to our old toys and characters. It might blind us in a foolish way to becoming attached to new toys but at the same time, maybe something is missing from these new toys that is simply not as special to the old ones.

    So far, the Classics line has surpassed every TF line except Alternators. And I would judge it on par with Alternators. My problem with Alternators is their complexity. Classics solve that problem at the cost of detail-- but I'm happy with that tradeoff cause now I have two lines that specifically cater to what I want.

    Finally. This is Transformers bliss.
     
  3. thefrozenred

    thefrozenred 4 8 15 16 23 42

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    Yeah, I noticed this too.

    "Energon and Cybertron aren't as good as Classics because they aren't the same character!"

    It's an immature and shallow way to approach homages in ANY line, wherein you confine yourself to only the story given to you by the company creating the figures.

    Figures are figures. It doesn't matter if they're a continuation of one story or not, all that matters is how they look, and how much you like them. That's it.
     
  4. Ops_was_a_truck

    Ops_was_a_truck JOOOLIE ANDREWWWWWS!!!!!!

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    I agree wholeheartedly. Reading these threads where so-and-so character homage/tribute is released and then people moan because it's not "faithful enough to the original" makes little sense to me. Characters like Energon Rodimus, Energon Downshift, Energon Tow-Line, Cybertron Downshift, etc. amongst others, were designed with a tribute or a salute to an original G1 character in mind. They're not supposed to be 100% accurate reproductions of the original character plus poseability and playability.

    If that's what y'all are waiting for - 100% faithful representations of each G1 character, as well as poseability and playability - wake up and smell the plastic. That product line has been done and design teams do not like to repeat product lines - particularly those that are 20 years old.

    Think of the homage characters in the classics series like you would the new Mustang, the PT Cruiser or the Chevy SSR. While these vehicles TAKE DESIGN ELEMENTS from an original style or design of vehicle and APPLY THEM EFFECTIVELY to a NEW DESIGN, they are not 100% reproductions of a 1970s Mustang, a 1930 Ford/Chevy Panel Cruiser or a 1930s-40s Ford pickup. That's not the idea. The idea is to create a fusion of what's come before and what catches a person's eyes today. And that's what the classics line is all about, at least in my opinion.
     
  5. Nightrain

    Nightrain Senior Villain

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    That's the other extreme, saying story and this and that don't matter.

    Hogwash.

    If that were true, Takara would've had much more success with their toys. Transformers blew them out of the water because of the creativity and character association that went into them.

    Marketing does matter. Story and characters are a big part of that.
     
  6. Insane Galvatron

    Insane Galvatron is not insane. Really!

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    I think the idea is that they are very close in design, just updated, versions of the originals. Most homages have only a colorscheme or slight design in common. Or the homages are really nice upgrades, just hendered by the line-wide gimmick or individual gimmick. The classics are back to basics, more directly updated G1s.

    I like the Shockwave homage we got with Energon Shockblast, but to me it's not a true update because the transformation and alt mode are too different and he has the stupid unarticulated arm cannon gimmick. Similar can be said with E. Rodimus. The combination gimmick screwed his proportions. Not to mention his transformation is again nowhere near G1 Rodimus'.

    That is the reason most people are more stoked about Classics than homages. It's because they are G1's actually updated, not just paid homage to.
     
  7. thefrozenred

    thefrozenred 4 8 15 16 23 42

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    Well, by that same logic, you could say that E-Prime was TF-Classic Prime before this one. Same transformation scheme, same aesthetics (color scheme, torso/shoulder details, proportions (except for the main body), etc) as G1 Prime. E-Prime was a G1 design that was, by your logic, actually updated, right?

    An "actually updated" G1 would be, to me, the EXACT same mold as in G1, but with the inclusion of more joints. That's an update of a mold.
     
  8. Insane Galvatron

    Insane Galvatron is not insane. Really!

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    No, E. Prime does not fit that logic. He colors are way off ( too much grey ), his arms fold behind him instead of incorporating into his cab, he doesn't look anything like G1 Prime in either mode, and has a big chunck of plastic on his back. Part of the criteria for an update is it has to at least look or feel like the toy it is updating. E. Prime falls way short.
     
  9. Nightrain

    Nightrain Senior Villain

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    [​IMG]

    While it's argueably the most like the original, it's still quite a stretch.
     
  10. Laser_Optimus

    Laser_Optimus Your opinion was noted. Now get lost. TFW2005 Supporter

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    Honestly, because Energon Rodimus is a completely different character. Doesn't mean he in and of himself isn't cool, because I actually like E. Rodimus better than G1 Rodimus Prime (always liked him better as Hot Rod anyways). However, I feel that the Classics line is a representation of something I've wanted for a long time now. Updated G1 characters using today's technology. Sure, we get that with homages, but they're still just homages and not meant to be the same character. It doesn't neccessarily mean that Classics Hot Rod is more legitimate than E. Rodimus, but it holds a special place for me personally. However, it doesn't make E. Rodimus a pale comparison... and to be honest I haven't seen that term used at all in that thread.

    Fiction matters to alot of people because it's the official story and therefor that means that that's who and what that character is. Of course, the show portrail of alot of the Energon characters compared to their online bios was... questionable, however, the same could have been said about G1 bios Vs. show portrayal. It's true that if you want E. Rodimus to be G1 Rodimus than that's up to you, but personally I like E. Rodimus better than G1. And, yes, he's an update on the old design, but he's still just a homage because he's meant to be a different character.

    Also, this immitations thing you keep bringing up. I've not seen this said at all. Alot of people are saying the same thing that I've said: That it's simply that they really are the characters that I grew up with being updated. No matter how much cooler E. Rodimus is to me than G1 Rodimus... he's still the Energon version of that character not the G1 version. As much as I love the new series and new universes... they aren't the updates of what I grew up with and what has a special place in my heart. Call it nostalgia, call it fanboyism, call it whatever... it's simply that my likes are different than yours. And that's not really a good or bad thing.

    Myself, I'm personally interested in the toys above all else and that the toys are cool first and formost. After that, I go with the official fiction... unless of course I think the fiction sucks and than I create my own. They are my toys after all. :thumb 
     
  11. Laser_Optimus

    Laser_Optimus Your opinion was noted. Now get lost. TFW2005 Supporter

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    Somebody's going to have to point me to the thread where someone has been saying that because I've not seen any of these negative comments regarding the other lines. Sure people are stocked about Classics, but I don't think that anyone's saying that the other lines suck. They're all wonderful, especially Cybertron, but those characters aren't the G1 characters. To some that does matter... in my case it doesn't mean that Energon and Cybertron aren't as good as the Classics line, but if the Classics line is as good as it's said to be than it's going to be something that I'm going to like just as much because it's the first time since G1 that we're getting actual versions of some of our G1 characters. Homages are nice, but they aren't G1. Again, that doesn't mean that they're not good toys.

    This is true, but again... I think you're putting words in people's mouths because I've not really seen any threads where people are really saying anything like that. Again, please point me in the right direction if I'm missing something.
     
  12. butz

    butz slippery when wet

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    For me its because the Classics versions of the figures, so far, look more like the originals that I love than the homages. The figures that are just homages are usually rather different from the figure they're an homage to (by virtue of being a different character) with only enough details (similar head, colorscheme, name, etc.) to remind us of said character. E. Rodimus is great example of this- similar head, name, and colorscheme, but rather different looking from G1 roddy in both modes. If it somehow ends up that E. Rodimus is closer to looking like G1 Hotrod than the Classics figure (not bloody likely), then I'll glady use him as my updated G1 Hotrod/Rodimus figure.
    As much as I love the Transformers that got me into the franchise in the first place, I've been wanting the figures to get some modern updates for a long time now (to take advantage of better articulation, durability, proportion, better likeness to the comics and animation models that were based on the early figures, and now more modern looking alt modes, where needed). If theres multiple figures that are such updates of a given character, then I want whichever is closest, whether its supposed to be the real deal or just an homage (and so far the true updates seem to be more faithful than figures that are just intended as homages).

    Also, I take issue with people saying the story doesn't matter. There are TF fans who either don't buy the toys or rarely buy anything- they're just in it for the fiction surrounding the Transformers. If you're only in it for the neat toys then good for you, but its idiotic to criticize people for liking the story and the roles the characters play as well.
     
  13. Laser_Optimus

    Laser_Optimus Your opinion was noted. Now get lost. TFW2005 Supporter

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    I have to agree with this. Those characters are homages and nods to the G1 originals. And that's great, but some people want updated versions of their old favorites as a kid. However, they do need to realize that they aren't supposed to be the originals and just accept them for what they are.

    This is true and something I feel that everyone that's getting all stocked up about the Classics line really needs to consider. Even that line isn't going to be exact representations of the original G1 guys. As you said, the design teams like to put their own destinct designs on things and don't want to copy a 20 year old toy and add only articulation and firing missiles. I think when the Classics line comes out some of the more die hard G1 fanboys are going to be highly dissapointed. Myself, I was looking at it from the Neo perspective to begin with... to me... Hasbro is missleading some of the fandom with the term Classics attatched to the line, because Classics refers to old characters, classics designs redone. However, if you look at the line as Neo G1 than you aren't setting yourself up for dissapointment in the line... it's the G1 characters with all new "neo" designs. And some people aren't going to like that IMO.

    [QUOUTE=Ops_was_a_truck]Think of the homage characters in the classics series like you would the new Mustang, the PT Cruiser or the Chevy SSR. While these vehicles TAKE DESIGN ELEMENTS from an original style or design of vehicle and APPLY THEM EFFECTIVELY to a NEW DESIGN, they are not 100% reproductions of a 1970s Mustang, a 1930 Ford/Chevy Panel Cruiser or a 1930s-40s Ford pickup. That's not the idea. The idea is to create a fusion of what's come before and what catches a person's eyes today. And that's what the classics line is all about, at least in my opinion.[/QUOTE]

    Err... I don't think that the characters in the classics line are homages at all. They're updates of the oringal characters. A homage is totally different IMO than an update. Of course I don't expect them to be 100% accurate to the originals... that'd be stupid as I said above and I feel that if people are thinking this way than they should really wake up and smell the plastic, because (based on what we've already seen from Astrotrian, Megatron and Optimus Prime) they're the originals with updated forms, however, they still resemble they're G1 self... which is something that can't be said for every homage... it may have passing resemblances such as Cyb Downshift having Wheeljack's head, but I don't see how Armada or Cybertron Megatron are anything but complete redesigns of Megatron. And no... a redesign isn't a homage IMO. It's an all new design. And of course there's the homages that are just as much updates as the classics line is going to be... such as Energon Megatron/Galvatron who is an outright homage and update of G1 Galvatron.
     
  14. Laser_Optimus

    Laser_Optimus Your opinion was noted. Now get lost. TFW2005 Supporter

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    Well, said. There are tons of fans whom don't buy the toys and are only interested in the fiction aspect of it. It's silly of people to think that everyone whose a fan of the series buys the figures.
     
  15. Shaun_C

    Shaun_C The REAL One True fan Veteran TFW2005 Supporter

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    On this I have to agree L.O

    And I love your application of "Neo" very aproproate in the sense you use it.

    I guess this is where I stand out in the fandom.When I watch BW,BM,RID,Armada,Energon or Cybertron.I'm not thinking about G1.I treat each TF series as it's own and don't compare it to the original.The only series I've watched that made me think of G1 was BW and BM.But that's because it's IMPO a continuation of the series & has been since "Code of a Hero"

    Like the movie,I consider this more of an Ultimate Transformers.Changes enough to remain fresh but similiar enough to the source :) 

    I would really like to see a clear pic of Optimus Prime and Megatron though.The only clear pic has been of Astrotrain
     
  16. Quantum

    Quantum Oh good

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    QFT...ain't it great!?:D 
     
  17. Backpack

    Backpack Scattershot who?

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    The whole homage thing has gotten old. Early on, back during Armada; it seemed cool. Seeing old character styles brought back with a different aproach made alot of toys more fun to buy. Some of it was just the reuse of names + personal attachment to the old characters, that made it all seem more familyar. Even then though they weren't taken to far.

    As homages continued into Energon... I got a bit tired of it. I started to see it for what it was... lazyness. Why go through the bother of coming up with a completely new character, when all you have to do is swipe one from G1.

    It was Archer that said he had no interest in continueing G1, with his "been there, done that" adatude. Yet he continued to relie on it for a good porton of the characters/toys... and passed it off as homage. Even the stories basicly fallowed the G1 formulas. At some point Archer should have noticed that deep down, what he really wanted to do was G1, because so much of it leaked into Armada-Cybertron.

    Dispite my some what dislike for the direction of BW, that show/toy line' was a good example of creativity. Dispite some G1 names being used, it was an all new take of Transformers. Perhaps if the Homages started drawing from BW characters (where the name and looks were used, but with radical backstory and personality changes) some of the newer TF fans might understand how a homage can feel like a "poor imatation".

    Then comes Car Robots/RID, also a good at being original. Even the update of Prime was very original. He looked nothing like Prime, but had the vib of G1 Prime; without basicly ripping it off.

    My feeling has been, if you don't want to continue G1... them move on. Don't keep going back to it and using it as a grab bag of ideas. If they insist on doing that, just take the leap and redo, or continue G1 legitametly. If not, stick to new characters, names, and stories.
     
  18. Laser_Optimus

    Laser_Optimus Your opinion was noted. Now get lost. TFW2005 Supporter

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    Yeah, that's been something that's always bothered me as well. With the introduction of BW, there's alot more space that could be filled in show wise. And I understand if they don't want to do that, but they definently need to stop using G1 as a character fodder if you don't want to continue G1.

    I'll have to second that. Something completely knew like BW would be nice, but all the G1 grabbag stuff needs to stop. Either that or redo or continue G1. But they won't do that and it's understandable if they don't, but they need to stop hiding behind a homage.
     
  19. Backscatter

    Backscatter Autobot Brainmaster TFW2005 Supporter

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    Homages make little difference to me. I just enjoy Transformers.
     
  20. Laser_Optimus

    Laser_Optimus Your opinion was noted. Now get lost. TFW2005 Supporter

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    Thanks, always great to know that someone shares my opinion. To some degree at least. :thumb 

    I have to agree with you here. I try not to compare each series to G1 largely because it's not meant to be G1. At the sam time, however, I do wish that they wouldn't just create a character with a new personality and than slap a G1 name on it. Something like BW where the characters had all new never before used names would be awesome.

    Yeah, that's pretty much how I'm looking at this, the upcoming movie and the Alternators line. G1, but at the same time not.

    And clearer pics would be a godsend I agree! :thumb 
     

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