TFP misunderstandings, in depth analysis of arcs and their meanings

Discussion in 'Transformers Robots In Disguise / Prime Discussion' started by Lord Tron, Apr 7, 2017.

  1. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    This is not a hate thread you want to complain take it somewhere else. You have a better idea state it spell it out describe how the character arc in question would work what would it mean, what would be the thematic idea behind it. Why would you choose this story in particular. If you think what I said could've been done better than explain how, give alternatives let your imagination flow.

    Think like a writer that's the whole purpose of this forum to give the writers intentions and for you to decide if you agree or not and then explain why and what you would do, then you can all debate the merits of each side while waiting for the next file.

    (This is not a hate thread plenty of those exist if it is not used for it's intended purpose I will close it)
     
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  2. NOCV

    NOCV Cretin of Kaon

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    I agree that more interesting things could've been done with Dreadwing, but I think what occurred was the logical conclusion, and it occurred at a pivotal point.

    Dreadwing had always expressed anger that Skyquake had died. Learning that Starscream raised him as a zombie enraged him at a crucial time when Starscream had just rejoined the ranks. Dreadwing was on his way out the Decepticon door, but first he intended on destroying Starscream as retribution for dishonoring his fallen brother.

    Dreadwing, refusing Megatron's orders, left Megatron no choice but to destroy him instead of allowing him to kill Starscream.

    I liked Dreadwing a lot, but I think his death served him well. Forever loyal to the cause and unwaivering in betraying his honor, he faced the conflict of being the dutiful soldier or being the honorable brother. He chose his honor and the pursuit of justice for his brother, and met his end because of that.

    The added plus was it being a pivotal moment between Starscream and Megatron. Megatron had just recently learned the full truth of Starscream's past offenses and still welcomed him back. Saving his life solidified Starscream's dedication to serving him and the cause, laying the groundwork for his later feeling betrayed when Megatron ends the Decepticons.
     
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  3. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    I mean, I can't speak for the guy, but he was just giving his opinion on the arcs and their meanings, specifically how there was none. That is what this thread is about. Like he mentioned with Orion Pax, an arc that had absolutely no reprecussions for the character in question. Any and all development was undone at virtually the push of a button.

    Not that there was much development. Orion Pax learned nothing and was no different from Optimus except he believed whatever you told him. My idea for a better arc would involve actually making Orion Pax a noticably distinct character from Optimus. Make him seem more impulsive in his youth, give him different mannerisms and speech patterns. Make him more casual and mellow, so he's not just Optimus with a sad confused face all the time.

    And most of all, don't just give him his memories back. How about when Jack tries to restore his memories, it doesn't work, because get this: Pax's time with Megatron actually changed his state of mind. Not towards 'Con mentality obivously, but instead seeing an even more opressive, totalitarian faction in the Decepticons, he's enraged over what he's let happen, possibly even guilt-ridden. So the Key to Vector Sigma doesn't deem him a worthy Prime any more, and he has to re-earn the title by leading as the younger-minded Orion Pax. We actually see his hero's journey instead of merely being told it. Thus he actually accomplishes something and grows as a character even once he's Prime again because this time he keeps his memories as Pax, and his character is subtley chanegd into a halfway between stoic boring Optimus and younger, idealistic Orion.

    As for Dreadwing, assuming of course the character had to die because his VA was too expensive, write him out properly. He was clearly being setup to have conflicting emotions towards the Decepticons, but his loyalty stops him from outright defecting. So instead he is either sent out or chooses to go out on a mission to kill Optimus and prove to himself and Megatron that he is still loyal, but Optimus tries to convince him to join the Autobots. But Dreadwing can't betray Megatron, but he can't live with being a Decepticon, so he fights Optimus and is killed in battle, choosing death over dishonour. The character still dies, but it at least means something to the story and properly ends his arc unlike the nonsense we actually got. And don't end it there, use this as the spark that reignites Starscream's indicision over the Decepticons. Have Dreadwing be an example in Starscream's eyes of what true loyalty leads to, and return Starscream to the developement he was undergoing circa "Partners" before being turned into a joke character. Eventually he even ditches the 'Cons and goes solo for parts unknown. This could factor into Megatron's ultimate undoing, where he eventually loses any and all he thought loyal because of his lack of even the most basic empathy towards them and everyone realising being a Decepticon means just being another expendable for Megatron's ambitions.

    And that's just what I came up with in five minutes. I'm sure the actual writers could've done even better if they actually cared.

    Granted I don't know all the ins and outs of the current board tech, but I don't think you can. You can request a mod do so, but unless discussion is way off topic they probably won't.

    Also, not all criticism is hate.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
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  4. Snowcat

    Snowcat Animation Detective

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    Coming off a bit snobbish, perhaps? Only you understand the show, eh? The rest of us are all wrong? Or, perhaps people can interpret things in different ways.
    Maybe there was no meaning in Dreadwing's death and you just read meaning into it. Or maybe there was. Both are just interpretations. Neither is right or wrong. People are allowed to have their own interpretations of art. That's how art has always worked. And what the writers intended doesn't matter either. Once a work of art is released into the world, it belongs to it's audience. They decide whether or not it has worth.

    Okay. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Split Lip just did. He had a better idea, then he went into detail about it. But just before, you also say he can't change the story to be what he wants it to be. So, we're supposed to come up with new ideas, but not change anything. Is that right?

    So far the only thing this thread is proving is that one person believes they are a better fan then everyone else.
     
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  5. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    Umm, what? Dude, my post was entirely constructive. I offered my brief interpretation of the arcs, which while negative were brief and ultimately just for context, then offered my opinion on how they could've done better so I wasn't just bashing the show without offering anything constructive.

    Your opinion comes across as anything that isn't praise is bashing, and anyone who doesn't agree with you is a hater. You can't expect people to change their opinions just because you tell them too. That's not how social interactions work. If you open a public dialogue you don't get to choose which members of the public respond.
     
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  6. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    Split lip do not address comments to me I'm not here to debate with others and made a mistake when I briefly did yesterday.

    I don't want a negative environment, you can state your idea without saying something along the lines of see that actually doesn't suck. Do not address any future comments to me, I specifically state this in my intro. Do not respond to this post it's merely a statement.
     
  7. STARBLAST

    STARBLAST Banned

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    Nice god complex you've got there bud. Why are you on a forum if you're not going to "debate with other". This isn't a blog champ it's forum if someone calls you out on your bullshit you either take it or respond. But then again everyone but you is a drooling moron if they don't like shitty bad story telling according you.

    Can't wait for your pretentious little ass to discover Energon so you can write thesis long posts how everyone is too dumb to understand the amazing intricacy and complexities fo Kicker's story and the brilliant story telling of reviving Unicron 3 times.
     
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  8. Snowcat

    Snowcat Animation Detective

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    Well, to be a little fair to Energon, I do think there are some interesting complexities in the Japanese version. But they are unfortunately buried under a mass of insane writing decisions and then further buried under a terrible English dub. But I've got nothing against writing thesis long posts, exploring ideas. It's the calling everyone else too dumb to understand them if they disagree, which I have a problem with.
     
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  9. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    I already apologized and said I was out of line for that, people make mistakes and sometimes say things they shouldn't, I made a mistake and overreacted I realized this and apologized for it, can we please move beyond it?
     
  10. LynKey

    LynKey Well-Known Member

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    I think there was a confusion. I gues he was probably referring to this comment:

    And his response:

    Then again most of the responces seem to be gone so I might have missed something.

    For something more thread relevant:

    For Dreadwing
    The two things I remember about him are: 1. being Skyquakes brother and 2. being loyal to Megatron.
    Him trying to kill Starscream seems understandable but I forgot why he bothered to help the Autobots first.

    For Starscream
    Going back to the Decepticons seemed like the logical choise here.
    He tryed going solo and it was painful, the Autobots had proven that they aren´t an option, the encounter with M.E.C.H. ended painful, Airachnid also wasn´t an option after she left in a similar fashion.
    Why wouldn´t he go back to the only place he ever sort of belonged.

    For Megatron
    His decision made sense to me and I think he´s nicer then you expect. I have to admit that this doesen´t have to do with what he did as much as what he didn´t.
     
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  11. LynKey

    LynKey Well-Known Member

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    I think there was a confusion. I gues he was probably referring to this comment:

    And his response:

    Then again most of the responces seem to be gone so I might have missed something.

    For something more thread relevant:

    For Dreadwing
    The two things I remember about him are: 1. being Skyquakes brother and 2. being loyal to Megatron.
    Him trying to kill Starscream seems understandable but I forgot why he bothered to help the Autobots first.

    For Starscream
    Going back to the Decepticons seemed like the logical choise here.
    He tryed going solo and it was painful, the Autobots had proven that they aren´t an option, the encounter with M.E.C.H. ended painful, Airachnid also wasn´t an option after she left in a similar fashion.
    Why wouldn´t he go back to the only place he ever sort of belonged.

    For Megatron
    His decision made sense to me and I think he´s nicer then you expect. I have to admit that this doesen´t have to do with what he did as much as what he didn´t.
     
  12. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    Well, sorry, but that's what happens on a public forum. You invited debate the moment you hit "submit new thread."

    You know you can't just tell people what to do, right?

    I don't see what this has to do with what I said, though? Yes, those are accurate facts that don't run contrary to my proposed arc resolution.

    Because he didn't belong there. That's what "Partners" was all about. It completely undid all of the development from that episode and made Starscream look like a gormless weakling who couldn't even survive on his own.

    Killing his most loyal and capable soldier for the cowardly, treacherous and worthless Starscream made sense? Nah, that scene was a terrible mis-step that didn't need to happen.
     
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  13. soundwaverulls

    soundwaverulls Well-Known Member

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    Well, Starscream didn't exactly have much to work with on his own. He can't take down two whole factions by himself. While turning him into a straight-up comic relief character was a slap in the face to anyone who, like me, was invested in his character's struggles, I do at least like the idea behind his arc in season two, finally teaching him some humility. It's just a pity season three kinda undoes this.

    Well, even though some of it was through luck, Starscream did manage to accomplish more than any other Decepticon when he stole the Omega Keys. Plus, Out of the Past had established just how much the 'Cons accomplished under his leadership, before the show began. Megatron's decision made sense, even if it was explained really poorly in the show. Megatron's only real mistake was mistreating Starscream (which conflicts with him seeming like he was starting to understand the importance of teamwork towards the end of season two) although that wouldn't have been so much of a problem if Screamer didn't have such a big ego that he'd think Shockwave of all people would want to steal his position... Which contradicts Screamer's own development in season two.

    Basically what I'm saying is that where the writers left Starscream, Megatron and Dreadwing's character at the end of season two is good, even if how they got there was severely flawed. The biggest problem was where things went in season three.
     
  14. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    I think my problem with Starscream going back to the 'Cons was that it was completely surface-level with no twists or other angles to it. Starscream doesn't just stop being Starscream, it would've made sense if he went back but was only falsely loyal and was actively planning another takeover, learning from his previous failures and becoming a real internal threat without being obvious. We've never had a Starscream before who plays the long game like that. There must exist a middle ground between homeless and boot-licker.

    Then again one could also say making Starscream so physically weak and incapable that he can't strike out on his own was a problem in itself, seeing as how TFA Starscream got by just fine. (they even gave him a clone army ala TFA and just threw it away) If you make a character that's famous for his treachery, and is established that he is woefully treacherous to a fault, turning him totally subservant just seems... out of character. It was too easy. Oh, Megatron slapped him around a bit, and it was kinda hard living alone. Isn't Starscream supposed to be, like, cunning and resourceful? I mean, they wrote in the clones for him to find, why didn't they just write in more stuff for him to use? Or not write out the clone army immediately? It's one of the few times putting more previously undiscovered crap on Earth would've helped.

    Plus, even if it did make sense, it doesn't make Megatron's choice and Dreadwing's death any less of a frustrating waste of potential. Ultimately, much like Breakdown, Dreadwing was pretty much pointless.
     
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  15. soundwaverulls

    soundwaverulls Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if I agree that teaching Screamer humility is an inherently bad direction to take his character. In fact, I commend them making such a bold move with such an iconic character. Plus, how they got there did make sense. He was beaten by humans, had his ability to transform and fly removed, he failed to kill Megatron with even five clones of himself, felt every single one of their deaths, got indestructible armour and still got beaten, then lost it as soon as he gained speed energon. It's understandable that at that point, he'd start to question if he's as great as he thought he was. However, yes, the problem was that they didn't have anything interesting to do after they reached that point. Heck, I personally would've taken the Decepticons actually becoming a formidable threat from their unity. Instead they just undid Starscream's development and fell back onto him being a comedic idiot who ruins everything and gives them an easy way out of any Decepticon victory.
     
  16. Snowcat

    Snowcat Animation Detective

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    Yes, a cool, calculating Starscream who plays everyone subtly. I'd like to see that. That's what I liked about Cybertron Starscream in the first half of that show. But like with Prime it was ultimately shafted in favour of turning him into an egocentric idiot.
     
  17. Starscream Gaga

    Starscream Gaga Protoformed This Way

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    So this thread is really just to have the OP put down his opinions and set them as beyond reproach and any disagreement is "hate" and don't you dare actually address him! Good to know.
     
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  18. Gordon_4

    Gordon_4 The Big Engine

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    I'd really like to see them take another crack at a Starscream like the one in Armada.
     
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  19. Lord Tron

    Lord Tron Well-Known Member

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    No you can disagree all you want and even point out issues in my analysis so say what you want but be able to back it up. Just saying that was bad isn't enough explain why, I already stated I was misguided in my response to split lip.

    I don't want to be addressed because I don't want to debate and argue every debate I get in overtakes the thread I would rather that not happen. That's why I don't want comments addressed to me.
     

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