Tech Spec inquiry

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by YoungPrime, Aug 19, 2011.

  1. YoungPrime

    YoungPrime Well-Known Member

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    Just had a question regarding Transformer stats

    If Prime's strength is a 10, how can Omega Supreme or Trypticon be rated as a 10 as well.

    Shouldn't the 10 rating expand at some point when dealing with Omega Supreme, Combiners, etc. since they're obviously more powerful than Megatron, Grimlock or Prime?

    So why don't they place them in different classes since Saying Devastator's a 10 along with Superion doesn't really give you much of an idea of who's strongest.

    Second question: From a G1 perspective is Devastator the weakest of all the combiners? If not then who would be?
     
  2. rxlthunder

    rxlthunder Banned

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    Well, when you think about it, Prime is a Prime and Grimlock is Grimlock.
     
  3. YoungPrime

    YoungPrime Well-Known Member

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    Well is either of them as strong as Predaking?
     
  4. 1984forever

    1984forever Banned

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    When the 1st Tech Specs were made up, Budiansky made the leaders the strongest. He didn't know that Hasbro would be coming out with combiners and giant toys like Omega Supreme. He didn't plan ahead for it and as a result, tech specs have been effed up for almost 3 decades.
     
  5. AutobotMirage

    AutobotMirage Wrecker

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    They are not as strong as Predaking was but they still are pretty strong. I agree with you ,however, about the Tech Spec idea.

    To answer your second question, I think that Superion was the weakest of all.
     
  6. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Banned

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    Thats not exactly true.

    Budiansky was given Takaras catalog of toys.And he must have seen the toys that would become the Constructicons and Train-bots since takara altrady had made them.

    As for the system, I think he intended that fans see the larger or combiner characters in a separate class.
     
  7. Transfotaku

    Transfotaku Transformer Otaku

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    If Predaking et al being as strong as Prime (or vice versa) is a problem to you, just do it by scale and in relation to other members of that scale.

    So Prime's 10 means he's in the strongest tier of all 'normal sized' guys, but he wouldn't be able to lift as much as Omega Supreme, since OS is on a larger scale.

    Or, just think of Strength in the specs as how much damage one TF can do to another with a punch, kick or melee weapon. Prime's 10 means his punches hurt far far far more than Bumblebee's...3, was it?
     
  8. YoungPrime

    YoungPrime Well-Known Member

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    That still doesn't solve the question of if Trypticon is stronger than Omega or Ft. Maximus since they're all listed as 10's.
     
  9. Sol Fury

    Sol Fury The British Butcher Administrator News Staff

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    Yes, I always took it to mean "when compared to a robot of a similar relative size".

    Granted we also have testimony from Aaron Archer saying a lot of it is based on how cool a robot is, because low spec toys don't do as well with the focus groups. So it's all a bit out of whack regardless.
     
  10. Transfotaku

    Transfotaku Transformer Otaku

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    I think it's pretty clear that if they're all at the same Strength....they're all at the same strength. They're not stronger than one another, they're as strong as one another.

    Just like if 1 guy can lift 500 pounds and another guy can lift 500 pounds, who's stronger?

    Failing that, I invoke the MST3K Principle: It's just a show (toyline) and I really think you should just relax.
     
  11. Gingerchris

    Gingerchris Telly-headed Tyrant

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    I would be very interested to see how well an awesome figure sold even if all its stats were just '1'. :p 

    I wish stats were more imvolved in TF these days. I'd love to see a stat affector molded onto the bottom of a TF's foot that says '+2' or -3' and that's the affect they have on other TF's stats. Maybe the '+' is a stats booster for that figure and the '-' is a stats diminisher for an enemy in battle. So when you go into battle against another figure you take the stats of both figures and then add and subtract each of their 'affectors' and work out which figure would be better in battle overall.
    I was gonna also suggest different hidden stats for the same figure so you never truly knew the full power of the figure you're buying, but that would require more molding and thus cost. Maybe just give them random hidden rubsigns with different stat affectors. Call it 'Stat Attack' or something catchy. Make tech specs really mean something again. Get them off the packaging and onto the figures themselves. Like the old G1 Headmasters did.
     
  12. YoungPrime

    YoungPrime Well-Known Member

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    ..........I thank you for you input but I strongly disagree.

    It's absurd to assume that Predaking, Bruticus or Scorpinok are all the exact same strength.

    Not to mention it would be boring.

    So for the record I'm looking out for the guy who can lift 600.
     
  13. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    Obviously this is a case of poor planning that kind of got out of hand, but the EASY answer is simply that the 10 point scale maxxes out at 10, so guys like Prime or Predaking go "off the chart".

    This applies to all the Combiners and "giant" type characters. ALL combiners (except Computron, I think) have 10 Strength... What's handy in these cases is that often with the very strong characters, actual measurements are listed for their strength. We know, for example, that Bruticus can lift around 250 tons. Defensor can lift 300 tons. Predaking is listed at 500+ tons. Metroplex can lift 70,000 tons. Even though they all are in the 10+ strength class, we can see that there are clearly still huge gulfs of power.

    Or even small gulfs of power. Both Prime and Grimlock are listed at 10 Strength, though it's implied that Prime might be stronger. They are in the same ballpark, both off the normal chart... even if Prime can lift a little more. Maybe.

    I even suspect Computron and his "9" Strength might be an error or an inconsistency since his strength is actually measured in his bio as being able to lift 240 tons, which is comparable to other Combiners. So there is room for interpreting errors...

    Prime is an interesting case, because he's listed as being able to lift "4 000 000 lbs"... which is around 2000 tons (!!). My long-held assumption was that this was a typo, that an extra zero got added there by mistake. Looking at the measurements for most other TF's in the early Budiansky years, it makes a LOT more sense that Prime can lift around 200 tons... making him ALMOST as strong as a combiner, but not quite there. I like that.

    Makes a lot more sense than him being 4 times stronger than Predaking. :dunce 

    I think that applies to later Tech Specs... I remember in that interview with Bob Budiansky from a while back, he commented that later on, he started cranking out the bios with a lot less attention to that kind of think because Hasbro was insisting on higher stats to sell the toys better. You can really see this with the 1986 Movie characters, who all were given astronomical stats, only to have them moderated the following year when some were re-released as Targetmasters.

    In the first few years of Tech Specs, you do see a surprising amount of consistency and quite a few low stats. Eventually though, we ended up with stuff like the UK G2 stuff, where anybody with a stat lower than 8 was considered a liability. :) 

    Well, let's ask G1 Scorponok. His stats are atrocious... pretty clearly some kind of graph error or stats switch there. 3 Strength? Really?? :lol 

    I'd like to see stuff like that too. I wish whoever is in charge with coming up with that stuff, especially for "classic" characters, would refer back to the "Budiansky Scale" more, and put more effort into it. These days it feels a lot more like just slapping some numbers on the box and forgetting about it.

    That would be one way to do it. We've seen enough stuff in the last decade, from Pokemon, to collectible card games, to HeroClix... that putting more effort into that side of things might feasible.

    zmog
     
  14. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    All you have to do is read the long bios for most of those characters, and you'll find some indications of how strong they are. If you're looking out for the powerhouses, check out Metroplex and Omega Supreme. They're both INSANELY strong (spoiler: Omega is stronger!)

    And then there's Piranacon, who can apparently lift 4 MILLION TONS... but that's a later figure, and I'm inclined to just chalk that up to being ******ed. Or you could drop one zero, and he'd be a more reasonable (but still strong as hell) 400 000 tons, which is still more than enough to lift freight ships out of the sea.

    zmog
     
  15. Tripredacus

    Tripredacus K-Mart-ian Legend

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    He did lift up an oil tanker ship in the cartoon. How much do those weigh?
     
  16. NathanS

    NathanS Well-Known Member

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    Kind of interesting to watch the change as it occurs, bit by bit. I thin the movie group got such huge stats to really push them since the whole group was planned to be part of the more ensemble cast for the third session rather then the "Prime... and friends" of the first two. In 87 we see another big change, FM's lowest score are nines! Even Prime had some eights. On the other hand he still seems able to give the bad guys low scores as Scorponok headmaster activated stats put him a four for speed.

    88 is probably about where it falls apart, theres still a few reasonable low numbers in there, but it's clear stats inflation is winning out.
     
  17. Cobalt Agent

    Cobalt Agent My dick kills dinosaurs

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    The tech specs are in proportion to their size class I've always accepted. Or at least in their overall ability.

    Technically, going by their tech specs, Prime and Megatron are stronger than a lot of Combiners.

    Optimus, with Megatron as his equal, are class 2,000. That's more than Predaking, Computron, and Bruticus who don't exceed 500 tons. Megatron even defeats Predaking single-handedly in the comics.

    Optimus has on different occasions defeated Devastator as well, in both the cartoon and the Dreamwave comics. Megatron possibly defeated Devastator and the Triple-Changers in Triple Takeover, and resisted his punches in IDW. Devastator, Menasor, and Superion don't actually list their strengths like the others; they have vague statements like destroying a bridge, a battleship, or having a punching force of however much, but don't list lifting strength.

    As for everyone else? Trypticon could be in Metroplex's league. Metroplex and Trypticon were both seen carrying buildings over trillions of tons in the cartoon episode Thief in the Night. Metroplex has been shown throwing mountains too. Originally his profile made him weaker than Omega Supreme, with only 70,000 tons of lifting strength to Omega's 300,000 tons with one arms (granted only arm had a claw =P ). This was retconned later by DW to being able to lift a mountainside. Defensor can lift 300,000 tons like Omega, and in just one hand no less. As for Piranacon, he can lift 4,000,000 tons. And was still beaten by Predaking. And Galvatron. So I think that answers your question; yes, leaders can beat gestalts. Why? Because they can. The only combiner that doesn't have strength feats listed in his bio is Abominus, likely because he didn't get a giftset release in the US; his profile translated from Japanese just says he climbs buildings - whoopdeefuckingdoo. Maybe he's comparable in strength to Predaking considering his order of release, but that's conjecture. The only thing relating to his strength known is that he's aggressive. Sky-Lynx who like Omega Supreme is not a combiner but a giant with comparable power and commonly pitted against them has not real lifting strenth; kind of makes sense considering he's a fucking animal. lol

    Also, all things considered... yeah Devastator is probably the weakest combiner. Despite being composed of six beings as opposed to five- his inability to function beyond what his components agree on limits his ability, he's been physically outmatched by Bruticus who himself lost to Menasor (granted by sucker punch), then got messed up by Menasor personally in FFOD, has routinely been matched and beaten by Omega, and has lost to smaller beings like Megatron, Optimus, and the Dinobots and (God help me for citing Carnage In C-Minor) even Perceptor. He's also usually protrayed as the oldest except in IDW where it's Monstructor.
     
  18. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    A lot.

    But then Ravage put him down in another episode. Considering the random stuff that got tossed around in the cartoon, I'd be more inclined to disallow the oil tanker.

    There's definitely a decay in the general balance of the Specs as time goes on. 87 is when things start sliding... just count how many characters have 10 Strength in 1987, compared to before when the only 10's were Prime, Megs, Grimlock and huge combiner types.

    For a long time, I took that 2000 tons at face value looking at Prime's profile. I was impressed, but it still seemed... odd. Sure those guys were amazing, but to be that much stronger than enormous combiners?? Since I started to look at the possibility of there being one too many zeros, everything makes a lot more sense. 200 tons fits Prime better... almost as strong as a combiner, but not quite there.

    After all, when Megatron and Prime were depicted defeating Combiners in the past, they never seemed to be actually physically stronger than their adversaries. More skillful, agile, resilient and ferocious, sure... better firepower (in the case of Megatron), sure... but I don't think they're stronger.

    Yeah, those types of comparisons are pretty obtuse. I mean, in the case of Menasor, what does "punching with a force of 140 tons" mean anyway? In retrospect, I figured it would just be easier to calculate in terms of each arm being able to exert 140 tons, granting him around 280 tons (give or take) as a lifting limit. Sure, it's not perfect, but there it is.

    If you take Superion to be Menasor's main opponent, we could probably assume that Superion is similar.

    It's probably fair to put Metroplex and Trypticon in the same category... the real question is how big ARE they really? I've always seen them both as battle stations, not full "cities" as they appeared in the cartoon (which, let's face it, was pretty stupid). When you look at them at this scale instead, it seems more reasonable that Metroplex is "only" able to lift 70,000 tons.

    As for Omega Supreme, he also becomes a battle station of sorts... plus I always kind of saw him as... well... the strongest. He's just a big, slow, simple object... a walking claw and cannon. Sure he doesn't have all the fancy equipment and repair bays and dazzling array of weaponry that Metroplex has... but he is really, really strong. I sort of liked that about him, so I'm satisfied to accept that he's stronger than Metroplex, at least in terms of raw physical force.

    I have to correct you there. Defensor can lift 300,000 LBS... which works out to roughly 150 tons, which means he can probably lift around 300 tons total, making him roughly equal to Bruticus and Menasor (if a little stronger). So he's pretty consistent. Predaking still tops those early combiners with his 500 tons.

    Yeah, I hate that 4 million tons... it's just too much. Plus, it feels like if you were really going to say "1 000 000 tons" or whatever, you would spell it "million" rather than doing 6 zeros. I can't help wondering if this is similar to Prime, and there's one superfluous zero in there... I have no concrete reasons or evidence to support this... just a nagging doubt.

    Which still would make Piranacon the strongest guy around... more than Metroplex or Omega! Maybe he can only lift that much while under water?
    I always figured Abominus, based on the tiny bit of info we actually have on him, would be really strong (for a regular combiner at least)... and REALLY stupid. Kind of the opposite of his Autobot counterpart Computron, who is super smart, but a little weaker than other Combiners.

    Sky-Lynx... who knows? He's huge, and on the cartoon he routinely bested Predaking, so maybe he's sort of in that 500 ton category?

    I see Devastator as primitive for sure... really basic engineering, with low reasoning power and response time. However, I do like to think of him as being rather strong. He is after all, made up of 6 bots, and as a team the Constructicons have the highest average strength rating of any other Combiner team.

    Although he always seemed to lose to Omega, the fact that they were so often paired up suggests that perhaps his strength might be closer to that level. Hard to say though. Regardless of how strong he is, it's entirely possible that other Combiners would still be able to beat him with superior skill and manoeuvrability. Just to cite one example, Bruticus is supposed to be a fairly coherent and well-coordinated as far as Combiners go.

    zmog
     
  19. doucoo

    doucoo U're an idiot Starscream!

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    Too be honest, when I was a kid, I just made it all up!!!!!

    interesting read, although some figures don't make sense.
     
  20. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    Sacrilege!! :lol 

    Actually, I did a fair bit of that when I was a kid too. I still treasured the Tech Spec bios, but didn't look at the numbers much, and I always seemed to find room for any other robot toys (Gobots, Convertors, whatever) in my Transformers scenarios. Similarly when all the neighbourhood kids "played Transformers" out in the back yard, it was almost never a true Autobot-Decepticon game. We just made up our own sides, and named the bots whatever we wanted.

    zmog
     

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