Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

Discussion in 'Movies and Television' started by eagc7, Jan 11, 2016.

  1. bagofshhh

    bagofshhh Well-Known Member

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    Jabba’s appearance was unnecessary like you said. it didn’t affect the plot in any way. It literally could have been any gangster in his place just like the droids, and the Fetts. They make the galaxy feel smaller because it seems like there must not be a lot of gangsters, bounty hunters, droids, etc in this entire galaxy originally set 50 years before the OT. Nothing evolves or changes in this supposedly living world.
    IMO Boba Fett’s mystique was lessened by his inclusion, and they could have gotten anyone to be the base copy for the clones.
    Have they really been using the same model of astromech and protocol droids for 100 years?
    Chewbacca is as unnecessary as Jabba was. It could have been any Wookiee who helped Yoda.
    Owen and Beru did what they needed to in the OT, but again, they have been on the same farm for 50 years? How boring. There was no rule that said they actually had to be related to Anakin or Luke in any way. They could have just been someone Obi Wan trusted. They could have even been part of the crew of the spice freighter Luke was told his father served on during the war. There could have done a whole adventure in the PT where Obi Wan and Anakin were being smuggled on a spice freighter piloted by Beru and Owen at some point which would have even given the lie a kernel of truth. Anything would have been more interesting.
     
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  2. Wrecker217

    Wrecker217 Heart Like a Hand Grenade

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    I think I shall ignore this thread until my birthday, then catch up on everything afterwards.
     
  3. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    No, I asked
    I never mentioned plot. That's all written in the script.
    You can hand 1 script to 4 different directors and get 4 different films; but they will all reflect the script. So really, whatever shortcomings the 1 script has would be reflected in all 4 films.

    *shrugs* But, really, that's what a director does. Film is a visual medium, so he takes whatever is already written and translates it into moving imagery mixed with sound by directing others in what they are to do and how they are to do it.

    I won't argue that JJ's stories are mediocre; I will argue, tho, on how well he tells a mediocre story.
     
  4. TattooedRobot

    TattooedRobot Functioning Addict TFW2005 Supporter

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    I am hopping the Hutts are a surprise inclusion in Last Jedi. They should be on the gambling planet, they should still have a grudge against the Solos / Skywalkers for killing Jabba and the lack of any criminal element or Mandalorians is strange with the new movies, We are missing a solid third of the universe.
     
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  5. RolandofGilead

    RolandofGilead Well-Known Member

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    Weren't there a few different smugglers and outlaws featured chasing Han and then later on Maz' planet?
     
  6. MetalicGrunt

    MetalicGrunt Rust Proof Commando

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    Possible we see a sneak peak of a modern Corellia before we see it before/during the clone wars in the Han Solo film?
     
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  7. SentaiTFMechaLover

    SentaiTFMechaLover Well-Known Member

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    still, I would love an explanation as to what happened to Lando after Return of the Jedi
     
  8. Murasame

    Murasame CHIMICHANGAS

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    Wish they finally made a bluray. Been waiting for years now.
     
  9. Murasame

    Murasame CHIMICHANGAS

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    Before the pt, when I was a kid, I imagined the clones were a race of their own. Like in wh40k. And they had to fight them, because they were evil. I'd find that more interesting. They told too much about things that should've been kept as a mystery. Explaining things ruined the magic.
     
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  10. Max Rawhide

    Max Rawhide Well-Known Member

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    Not fifty, but 32 (TPM) or less (AotC, RotS).

    I agree that it can make the universe look smaller. But when you think crimelord on Tatooine, Jabba is the first thing you think off. I dare say that if Lucas had for such a throwaway element created a new crimelord (of whom we knew nothing nor did we really need to know anything), fans would object. Does it make the universe smaller? Possible. Does it make sense for the story to use an already established (alien) character? Yep.

    Anyone could indeed work and maybe it would be better to have some other template.

    Then again, Boba Fett was popular (and thus a nod to the fans) and had a reputation of being a very skilled Bounty Hunter. Someone with that reputation (or actually, his template) does make sense as the base copy for the Clones.

    But it definitely made Boba Fett less mysterious.

    Why 100 years? R2D2 seems pretty new at the start of TPM and that's "only" 32 years prior to ANH. And in ANH we already saw a R5 model (suggestive of developments). Also, the OT trilogy does not take place on the core of the universe but on the fringe where technology is likely less advanced and with a Rebellion who likely has to use what it can get. If R2 was brand new and used by the rich planet of Naboo, then it makes sense that when the model has become more older it will be in use in less wealthy surroundings (while the Organa's kept using him because of his history).

    That said, considering a core element of SW is the used universe where everything is old, I think it fits. A big difference between SW and ST is also the level and use of technology: ST cutting edge, SW older and worn. I find it very plausable that a working, succesful astromech design is kept in use for a long time.

    True, but by making it Chewbacca there's more of a fan-connection. But I agree.

    50 years? Not even close. In AotC the farm belonged to Owen's father and Owen/Beru appeared to be in their early twenties. Anakin was 19 at that time and early to mid twenty in RotS. ANH takes place close to twenty years later (maybe even only 18). That means Owen's father owned the farm 22 odd years prior to ANH, Owen (and Beru) had inherited it at the time of RotS (20-18 years pre-ANH), lived on it with Luke the next 18-20 years, and then died.

    And yes, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of examples of children inheriting the farm/company/store from their parents and never leaving it. (Recently saw a tv program about a local jewelry that's been a family run store for more than a a hundred years.meaning that they indeed lived in the same place, did the same work, generation after generation.) That may seem boring but even today it's still very much a reality (and in recent to distant past, it was the fact of life).

    That I agree with. Outside of Luke calling them uncle/aunt and some comments in the OT, there was no real reason for them to be related (by their father marrying Anakin's mother). Actually, the initial idea was that Owen was Obi-Wan's brother.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017 at 9:58 AM
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  11. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    Fair enough. In that case, we do pretty much agree. I've said many times that J.J. is an excellent director and a shit writer. He does have some weak spots as a director (look at all the stuff in his own story that he wasn't able to communicate on film), but he knows what his strengths are and how to play to them and hide his weaknesses. Since nobody is perfect, that's part of being good.

    He just needs to give up on writing. At all. Ever.

    Perfect scenario for Star Wars would be:

    George Lucas writes the script (with LucasFilm/Disney getting some veto power in case he goes off the rails).
    Lawrence Kasdan revises the script (with GL getting veto power over any plot changes).
    J.J. Abrams directs, but doesn't write. If he needs to make changes for the sake of running time or pacing, he goes back to Lucas and Kasdan for that. Period.
    George Lucas acts as consultant during filming like he did for Rogue One.

    What makes the universe look smaller isn't the inclusion of Jabba. It's having Qui-Gon and Padme find Anakin on Tatooine. Jabba's the big crime boss there, so it would be weird to use someone other than Jabba or maybe his immediate predecessor. As soon as Lucas decided the action would be on Tatooine, Jabba's inclusion was inevitable.

    On the other hand, they needed something to make TPM more familiar and tie it to the aesthetic of the original trilogy. Since the "used future" motif isn't appropriate for the Republic, Tatooine, as the most familiar setting in the OT, was the best device to make that connection.
    Yeah, Jango is a mixed bag. He's a much better clone template than Lucas' previous idea that they would all be Lando. (Seriously, why Lando?)
    Doing virtually anything with Boba makes him less mysterious. He had so little background or characterization in the OT that he's more of a spooky prop than an actual character. Boba Fett is cool and all, but he (and his mysteriousness and supposed badassness) are seriously overhyped. But Lucas knew fans loved him, and he regretted killing him off without doing more with him, so Jango was his attempt to make up for that.
    Yeah, I always got the impression in the OT that R2 and C-3PO were old, worn-in, failure-prone tech, repaired and reused many times over. Even the old Droids cartoon suggested they'd changed hands between many owners prior to ending up with Luke.

    And I have no idea where the idea of Vader having a connection to C-3PO originally came from (was it Foster's idea, or did Lucas ask him to include that?), but again, it's been around since at least as far back as 1978. It's not an invention of Prequel era Lucas.
    Bingo. Although I'd change it to:

    PT: Cutting edge
    OT: Older and worn
    ST: Mixed. We see a lot of new stuff and a lot of salvage.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017 at 10:29 AM
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  12. bagofshhh

    bagofshhh Well-Known Member

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    If they absolutely had to include him, I would argue that they could have made Jabba a background gangster in the crime lord's box, who bet (and won) against his boss over the pod race. The wager? The control of the criminal empire on Tatooine. It would have given Jabba at least a minor arc, tied it to Anakin's fate, and would have been more entertaining than watching him start the race and fall asleep.

    Well, Jango was obviously the inspiration for the clones. But now that we have seen his origin, Boba isn't some original bad ass, he is (literally) a watered-down version of his father. To the point where he uses the same armor and ship as his dad. Also, if they hadn't have included him in the PT, we could have a Boba Fett origin story movie in this new round of Star Wars world-building movies.

    Well, I was estimating the PT was 50 years prior, I was wrong, but I was talking over the lifetime of the movies. R2 and 3PO are still in use in Episode 7. So for 66 years at minimum (since we don't know exactly when R2 was made, and how old the scrap parts were that Anakin used to build 3PO). I would argue that 3PO and R2 were based out of core planets for most of their existence Coruscant and later Alderaan (popular enough across the galaxy to blow up to send a message). So their owners probably had resources to replace them with new droids. I would argue that 66 years is a long time for machines made up of a lot of small moving parts (and prone to wear) to last. At some point it probably would be more cost efficient to replace them with newer models.
    Owen was 52 when he died. So assuming he lived on the farm for most of his life (since we ONLY ever saw him on the farm, and he did have a life before meeting Anakin), then yes, I'd say 50 years is a close enough estimate. I don't think I ever argued against the plausibility of him inheriting the family farm. I did say it made for a boring character arc. Which I still stand by.
    [/QUOTE]
     
  13. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    I'm pretty sure Owen's life is meant to be boring. It's Luke's initial motivation for wanting to get the hell off Tatooine.
     
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  14. Haloid1177

    Haloid1177 Hey, That's Pretty Good

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    I don't remember Lucas consulting on Rogue One. Like at all. Do you have a link confirming that? I know he visited the set, but I was pretty sure that was the extent of his involvement. And why in the world is Lucas the person you want writing Star Wars? The prequels were already enough. In regards to TLJ, Rian is a fantastic writer and director, probably the best Star Wars has had.
     
  15. bagofshhh

    bagofshhh Well-Known Member

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    It was boring when we came into the OT. It doesn't mean he couldn't have had a more exciting, or rebellious teen years/early adulthood. His whole way of life could have been greatly altered/sacrificed the day when Obi-Wan dropped baby Luke in his arms and told him to lay low. Imagine if Luke grew up thinking that "Uncle" Owen was boring and never knew he was once some daredevil badass. Which we could have seen if it was ever included in the PT. It would have been an A-HA! moment for the audience.
     
  16. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    Yes, and we have it straight from the director. He offered input on various things, not all of which was followed, but they more or less let him choose the designs he liked best.
    ‘Rogue One’ Will Feature Input From ‘Star Wars’ Creator George Lucas
    Not everyone has a hate-on for the prequels, bro. And I think he'd make stories that were a lot better received now that he wouldn't be written into a corner like he was when he started on the PT. More importantly, I can't speak for Rian's take yet, but everyone else's so far has always felt a little bit "off" as Star Wars, no matter how good it was. I'm a fan of auteurs and of letting creators be the experts on their own creations.
    Maybe he did at some point. We never see much of him during those stages of his life.
     
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  17. Haloid1177

    Haloid1177 Hey, That's Pretty Good

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    Input on design does nothing to the narrative and characters of the film, which is your biggest complaint about the new films. I don't see how it's really relevant.

    So Lucas wrote himself into a corner that resulted in trash dialogue, useless side characters, humor that failed to land, and an overabundance of political drama that had no place in Star Wars? I mean it's hard to take criticism of JJ's writing seriously when Lucas' excuse for the prequels is he wrote himself into a corner, but that'd he'd do better now?
     
  18. Incepticon

    Incepticon Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, got a quick ON topic post here.

    Pic of a cool new "Light & Dark Side" IMAX Standee that'll be showing up at some theaters. I, for one, am absolutely loving the design campaign for this movie. The red & white primary palette they've been using is fantastic.

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    I said it would be ideal to make use of him as a consultant. I didn't say it would affect the plot (pretty sure that's already covered by having him write the script...). Kasdan's input ideally wouldn't affect the plot either.
    These were all issues in the original trilogy, so you haven't got much of a point here. Hell, Lucas knows his dialogue is bad. It was marginally better in ESB and ROTJ because he had Kasdan rewriting it for him, whereas in the PT it was Carrie Fisher doing it (yes, those are her lines you're hearing in the PT--only ANH has untouched Lucas dialogue.) In any case, this is why I suggested having Kasdan revise the scripts.
    Yeah. How do you propose to tell the story of how a free republic becomes an evil empire without a fair amount of politics?
    Star Wars has always been inherently political. Even now, Kylo and the First Order are a pretty clear stand-in for the Alt-Right (and that's all I'll say on the subject).
    Well, he's never fucked up an easy-mode McGuffin plot, so he's got that going for him, at least.

    The story and pacing issues unique to the PT in Star Wars are fairly common to prequels in general. As a result, prequels tend to be negatively received, even from far better writers and directors. See Prometheus, Alien: Covenant, and Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me. Prequels are nearly always a bad idea, but unfortunately it's one Lucas committed to before some of us were even born--a long time before he supposedly went senile. As I mentioned regarding Jango, what he actually ended up doing with the prequels was sometimes much better than what he'd thought of back when fans still appreciated him.


    Here's a question. How much of what you don't like about the Prequel Trilogy is actually due to the plot--the chain of events that occurs--and how much is bad dialogue, unnatural delivery, uncanny compositing effects, and other aspects of executing that plot? Even the political scenes you dislike could be considerably shortened with more succinct dialogue.

    Now consider that 100% of the OT was written by the same guy who wrote the PT, with 2/3 of it receiving dialogue revisions from someone other than the PT, and 2/3 of it being directed by someone other than the PT. You really think it's his draft scripts that are the problem? Or is it his choice of co-writer and his later approach to directing? To a lesser extent, Lucas also planned large chunks of The Clone Wars, which people tended to like a lot. Again, that was GL's ideas with someone else executing them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017 at 11:51 AM
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  20. Haloid1177

    Haloid1177 Hey, That's Pretty Good

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    So 2/3 of the original movies didn't have that problem because Lucas didn't write the dialogue. So it's a Lucas problem. And Lucas had final say on Empire but his involvement was lessened. So...

    That isn't the story. That was never the story. The OT managed to show a rebel faction overthrowing an empire without entire scenes devoted to politics. So saying we needed to see it in the PT but not the OT is silly. The OT story was about Luke. The PT story was about Anakin. The OT had politics in the background, while the PT put it in the foreground. Huge difference.

    They're a stand in for the Nazis. We don't need to act like TFA was trying to sub in a modern day political ideology into the film. They were clearly Nazis, just like the Empire before. And again, there was not a focus on trade deals or senate hearings. There was one speech. Again, big difference.

    Nope, just just made more critically disappointing films that audiences and critics never really liked. Wonder which is more important.

    Prometheus and Covenant are fair examples. Fire Walk With Me was critically slammed because it was a film that required having watched the show and couldn't stand alone. The actual Twin Peaks fans liked it, which isn't something Prometheus, Covenant, or the PT managed to the same degree. Prequels are generally bad ideas. Not news. But when Lucas did three of them, and didn't really learn from the mistakes of the others, it poses the question why you think he'd do better with a sequel trilogy. The widely regarded best film in the franchise is the one where he was involved the least. I anticipate TLJ being similar in that regard, and that it isn't entirely beholden to the OT that it borrows a ton, and that Rian was able to do his own thing. Will that carry over to JJ in IX? I hope so, but with him rewriting I dunno. I would never say that TFA had a stellar script, but it was a script with a purpose that accomplished its goal very well, which is not something I felt I could say about any of the prequel scripts.
     

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