So why no mass shifting? SPOILERS

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Chaos Prime, Jul 5, 2007.

  1. Chaos Prime

    Chaos Prime Combaticon

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Posts:
    5,623
    Trophy Points:
    232
    Likes:
    +22
    SPOILERS
    I was thinking last night, and I noticed it hasn't been brought up by anyone so far, so I wanted to ask.
    I remember the big thing about no mass shifting for the movie, and how folks said that it wasn't 'real' enough for the movie, and that the movie goers would never accept it, and it would be too hard to explain, and stuff like that, so my question to you is, if it wasn't ok for the Transformers to mass shift, how come it was ok for the Allspark the mass shift? Wouldn't that be just as hard to explain, and 'unreal', and stuff like that?
    And if the Allspark can mass shift, then Soundwave can mass shift, since the Allspark is responcible for give Soundwave life and all.
     
  2. enduser0001

    enduser0001 Autobuddy

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Posts:
    250
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Likes:
    +0
    Its been said 438 times already but Frenzy DEFINITELY mass shifted.
    How does a 5 or 6 food robot transform into a little assed boom box?
    The Allspark cube was kind of lame too.
     
  3. Chaos Prime

    Chaos Prime Combaticon

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Posts:
    5,623
    Trophy Points:
    232
    Likes:
    +22
    Oh ok, I haven't noticed. I'm on vacation, so I'm only cassually on the forms. LOL. But seriously, I haven't noticed anything on mass shifting. That's why I made the thread.
    Thanks.
     
  4. MugenAutobot

    MugenAutobot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Posts:
    153
    Trophy Points:
    56
    Likes:
    +0
    I want to add to this as well, IMO Starscream definitely mass shifts. Compare Screamers robot mode to Primes, he's smaller I'm pretty sure or at least equal. Then how about the size of an F22 fighter jet to a big rig. The F22 is a very noticable amount larger. Screamer mass shifts because if not his bot mode would be much larger.
     
  5. Ra88

    Ra88 Dutchman!

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Posts:
    9,240
    News Credits:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    247
    Likes:
    +59
    Actually...A F-22 is only 2 times as big as the Peterbilt truck that they used for Prime (look up that pic with all the Bots, Barricade and Starscream in altmode). Normally, a bot would gain height at 1.5 times the length of his altmode. But Starscream actually compressed, ending up at 0.8 times the length of the jetmode, ending up just a tad bit smaller then Megatron and Prime. It's the reason why he's so bulky and has gorilla proportions; otherwise he would be as big, if not bigger then Blackout.

    Frenzy only mass-shifted when he turned into the phone (which looked RIDICOLOUS, same as with the Allspark). The boombox mode was pretty big, and he folded in a LOT onto himself. Ever saw one of those snakepeople fit into a tiny box? Same deal.
     
  6. Finbot74

    Finbot74 Dis-Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2007
    Posts:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Likes:
    +0
    I don't know why they did the Frenzy/cell phone thing, but I am glad we didn't have any 35 foot tall robots shrinking into human sized tape recorders or pistols. That would have looked completely retarded. I even thought that was retarded with the cartoon, but that's just my opinion. I know some people liked it.
     
  7. Chaos Muffin

    Chaos Muffin Misadventure Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Posts:
    28,751
    Trophy Points:
    322
    Likes:
    +4
    Since the Allspark is the life bearer to the TF's, the ultimate source of power, they probably thought it was ok for it to bend a few rules of physics.
     
  8. Op_Prime

    Op_Prime One With The Matrix TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2002
    Posts:
    474
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Likes:
    +0
    Exactly, The Allspark is an almost God-like Quasi-mystical artifact with unquantifiable powers which even the Transformers are unable to explain. For the most part, Transformers technology remains in the realm of the believable, though cybertronian engineering is definitely far more advanced than us, and unless they can come up with a way to explain mass-shifting for Transformers, it is best to leave it aside for them. Thanks to the Allspark's mysterious nature, It is much easier to suspend your belief seeing such an object mass shift than seeing a Giant Robot turn into a tape deck.
     
  9. Autobot HipHop

    Autobot HipHop Covert Operations

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2007
    Posts:
    672
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Likes:
    +0
    I didn't mind the All spark mass shifting. I thought it looked cool and reminded me of a giant rubix cube puzzle with the parts folding back on itself.

    I'm glad there was no Soundwave or Megs extreme shifting in this movie. Maybe in the second one, but the writers were on point by only allowing one or two "gimme's" in this movie.
     
  10. Chaos Prime

    Chaos Prime Combaticon

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Posts:
    5,623
    Trophy Points:
    232
    Likes:
    +22
    Actually you raise a good point. You said it yourself that the cybertronian engineering is definitely far more advanced than us. So then mass shifting is possible for them. Who cares if it's explained. It's just a movie. Throw in some fancy words like they do in Star Trek, and all is golden. LOL!
     
  11. Wingwolf77

    Wingwolf77 Decepticon Dark lord

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2003
    Posts:
    443
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Likes:
    +0
    I said this a year or so ago. All you have to do is tell the audience it can happen.
    Now its even easier the all spark mass shifted. Like the sector 7 guy said "anything is now possible"
     
  12. BetaSword

    BetaSword Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Posts:
    272
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Likes:
    +0
    One word about the socalled "Mass-Shifting": Nanotechnology!

    Explanation: if the parts shift layers of Atoms into eachothers, like a Telescope-Antennae, then Mass-Shifting is really easy possible.
    Tough, we cannot produce such machines right now.
     
  13. Op_Prime

    Op_Prime One With The Matrix TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2002
    Posts:
    474
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Likes:
    +0
    Ahh, but under this explanation, the object, no matter how compact, will retain the same mass as its uncompressed form (or considerably more considering how much energy it would take to attempt such a feat, and Energy-mass conversion), so basically what you're left with are handguns or Tapedecks weighing 10 tons each.
     
  14. Smasher

    Smasher HUNKY BEATS

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Posts:
    12,706
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    256
    Likes:
    +4
    Exactly. That is why in the IDW comic it is called "Mass Displacement" not "Mass Shifting" and it is accompanied by visible energy discharge. It's never revealed exactly where that mass is "displaced" to.

    Further, good science fiction does not need to explain its technology in any more detail than is required to get the viewer\reader involved in the story. If someone runs into his car and turns the key, you just know the car starts and the car runs.
    He doesn't say "I am about to deliver a charge to the solenoid which will..." So, the same holds true if you see Han Solo start the Millenium Falcon, or Optimus Prime transform.

    However, Mass Shifting is SO out there, that I think it would require an explanation. I mean, as a kid I found myself wondering why Frenzy and Rumble couldn't just grow as large as Soundwave or why Megatron was sometimes a human sized gun and sometimes a Transformers sized gun.

    Even the more recent cartoons and comics have avoided Mass Shifting except when they are specifically dealling with G1 material.
     
  15. Op_Prime

    Op_Prime One With The Matrix TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2002
    Posts:
    474
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Likes:
    +0
    Exactly as I said! Technology like transforming, or your example of Han Solo starting the Falcon, still falls in the realm of believable, most of them just an extrapoliation of existing technology, a more advanced version of systems we already use based on concepts that are already grounded in explainable science and thus needing no explanation. But as yet, our science can't explain mass-shifting/displacement, which makes it difficult for people to suspend their belief without a description of how it works.
     
  16. BetaSword

    BetaSword Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Posts:
    272
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Likes:
    +0
    10 Tons? No need for 10 tons in weight, if you have Anti-Gravity-Generator(s), which were used to reduce the weight to, for example 1kg.

    That would also explain, why Megatron is able to fly in Robot-Mode without wings and aerodynamics. :D 
     
  17. 9.8m/s^2

    9.8m/s^2 What's in a name?

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Posts:
    1,699
    Trophy Points:
    177
    Likes:
    +8
    Weight and mass are not the same thing. The traditional sci-fi "anti-gravity" generator would make a 10-ton gun push against Earth's gravity and "float", the gun would still have 10 tons of mass and hence, inertia. Trying to move it or swing it around would be like trying to move a floating yacht with one hand.

    If you're actually using a sci-fi device that actually reduces mass, so that the gun only has the inertia a "normal" gun would have, then that's the very definition of mass-shifting - where do all the extra molecules go?
     
  18. BetaSword

    BetaSword Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Posts:
    272
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Likes:
    +0
    You don't know all SF-Stuff, do you? Like in StarTrek, the Inertia-Dampeners, which reduce the Inertia-Force, could actually be used in cooperation with the Anti-Gravity-Unit.

    And all molecules would shift very compact next to each other like a Telescope-antennae.
     
  19. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Dry built

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Posts:
    66,410
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    407
    Location:
    agile house
    Likes:
    +917
    Allspark = Magic

    Frenzy's head = not a lot of mass. Especially once he ditched he neck.
     
  20. 9.8m/s^2

    9.8m/s^2 What's in a name?

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Posts:
    1,699
    Trophy Points:
    177
    Likes:
    +8
    Fair enough; the inertial dampeners on a Star Trek starship (or, indeed, most sci-fi spaceships) do allow for the kind of space-time warping you're describing. (I've been a trek fan longer than I've been a TF fan.)

    My point is, however, that no matter what, it's magic: whatever treknobabble name you give the device, it all comes back down to the fact that you're manipulating the existence and locallization of mass, but you don't know how. In the case of Megatron, you're trumping Star Trek (which takes some doing), since you're doing all the inertial manipulation of a starship or shuttle...but in a handgun-sized object. Where is the magical inertia-gravity-reducer device stored? In the handgrip?

    And, as someone already pointed out, "telescoping" the molecules doesn't reduce mass; it reduces size, which actually increases density. If you take an inflatable boat, and deflate all its parts down into a little bag, it hasn't lost any weight, and it's still heavy to carry around.

    Mass-shifting is perfectly probable, so long as you just suspend disbelief, accept it as fantasy magic, and quit trying to explain it. Nobody tries to explain the physics of Harry Potter, after all...
     

Share This Page