So long Murder Prime, we hardly knew ya.

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Lovecraft, Jun 9, 2018.

  1. JazzIsBeast

    JazzIsBeast Well-Known Member

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    I mean, that is exactly how the second most iconic hero of all time is (Batman), so obviously it has some draw.
     
  2. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    Except Batman isn't a soldier in a war. Not literally. He's a guy who uses fear to prey on the bottom-feeders of society. His whole air is gothic, brooding, and dark because he's Batman. And even then, only shitty Batmen are jaded and cynical.

    But people don't want Optimus to be Batman. They want him to be Optimus. Batman is enough Batman for everyone.
     
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  3. JazzIsBeast

    JazzIsBeast Well-Known Member

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    The question wasn't whether or not we want OP to be jaded and cynical (even though he's not, so let's get that clear), the question was whether that's what we want our heroes to represent, and though I wouldn't say the overwhelming answer is yes, obviously some people like that.

    And what do you mean only shitty Batmen are jaded? You mean pretty much every Batmen in existence that is worth his salt? The degree and focus on that aspect may vary, but it is a constant quality in Batman.
     
  4. Shark

    Shark Carcharodon carcharias

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    God damn
    Can't go through one live action movie without someone dissing my metal husband, huh
    Not even the ding dang Bumblebee movie
     
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  5. Godzilla Ranger

    Godzilla Ranger AgentGodzillaRangerPrime

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    Prime was already pretty thirsty, but Sentinel’s betrayal and the humans turning on the Autobots made him extra unhinged.

    Literally the only difference between Optimus Prime and Nemesis Prime are Quintessa’s facial mark, eye color, and his regard for humans.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
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  6. Godzilla Ranger

    Godzilla Ranger AgentGodzillaRangerPrime

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    Lol, I love the irony of that line.

    There’s no way it wasn’t intentional.
     
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  7. Matrixbeast

    Matrixbeast Here comes a thought

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    That's different, though. Batman has a set of moral guidelines, he relies on fear against his enemies, and he ultimately believes that a champion of hope like Superman or Wonder Woman is better for the world than someone like him. His decision to take Grayson under his wing was to get him the closure he never got, and he took Jason Todd to turn him from a street rat to a hero.

    Only in bad Batman stories is he truly a cynical, jaded bastard that revels in violence.
     
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  8. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    Was TAS Batman jaded? Or Nolan's Btaman? Or Burton's?
     
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  9. JazzIsBeast

    JazzIsBeast Well-Known Member

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    You had to point to popularized tv series and movies to prove your point, which is exactly why I made the remark I did.
     
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  10. QLRformer

    QLRformer Seeker

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    I think with a lot of heroes these days a big obstacle - maybe the biggest? - is how to be optimistic and inspirational in contemporary times. After all, heroes stand firm for right and a lot of the real world means you do what you can to stay alive, which means accepting and overlooking unfairness, so there's that imbalance.

    Wonder Woman believed Ares the god of war was causing World War 1, only to learn that people are actually capable of such destruction. She had a brief breakdown because of this, and was never really the same afterwards. She explained later that she had also learnt that asking people to step up and risk their lives, is a hard job and she can't really blame people for not doing so.

    MCU Captain America has him deal with ongoing disillusionment, first on seeing how HYDRA took over and later on having to break with the Avengers over superhero registration and later to protect Bucky Barnes. His journey is ongoing, but who knows if it can have a happy end or not.


    Movie Optimus has had it the worst IMO, because he's a heroic Autobot and a children's television icon but he's also a soldier fighting a war. Maybe an unbalanced portrayal was inevitable? Or is it the real world that's the problem? It's hard to say. But in the end, I believe that Optimus is an optimist and should inspire optimism.

    The films broke down Optimus, taking away his infallibility (he said he was wrong in DOTM) and getting him exiled and persecuted (in DOTM and AOE). But he still comes out a hero, because despite hostility from the people he's protecting, despite the lines between good and evil being blurred, he stood for compassion and mercy and came back to protect people. With grey morality and hostile attitudes, maybe to stand for saving people - to have the kindness, bravery and strength to do so - is all one needs to be a hero. But that's the only benefit I could see coming from this treatment.

    While grey morality works with giving nuanced characters, if overused it just makes a story overly dark and cynical, which is what I believe has happened.
     
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  11. Galvatron II

    Galvatron II I can type whatever here?

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    I don't think humanist, optimistic icons are outmoded by trying times. Supermans been ruined by so many people trying to fix the "problem" with him. There was never a problem. He's Superman, and he's never going to let us down. The end.
     
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  12. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    No shit I pointed to the popular versions. Why do you think they're popular?

    I seriously don't get this remark. Did you think I meant to say that those versions I mentioned were jaded and cynical? Because my point was that they weren't, and they're also the most beloved and popular versions of the character, so your argument that audiences gravitate towards more cynical and jaded heroes is bullshit.

    Perfect summation of the problem with current media. Just because some stuff has to be updated for the times, people think all characters must be updated, even if the entire point of them is that they're timeless.

    And it sucks, because Captain America in the MCU is basically what Superman should be. Old-fashioned but idealistic and infinitely heroic. And he's my favourite character of the movies. The concept can be done, and done well, if you're just willing to actually give a shit and believe in what the character stands for. Superman isn't a hero because he has super powers, he's a hero because he genuinely believes in the things he protects and fights for. "What's so funny about truth, justice, and the American way?" etc.

    Optimus could easily stand among these characters in that regard. And again, I don't dislike the idea of Prime as war-weary and deranged, but that's not what the movies have been intentionally doing. It's up to the fans to draw their own conclusions because the movies never even considered it. A strong hero isn't someone who annihilates his enemies, a strong hero is, to quote the man himself, "strong enough to be gentle."
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
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  13. Haywired

    Haywired Hakunamatatacon

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    Yup. The point of characters like Cap America or Superman should be that they stay true to themselves even if the world around them becomes gritty and cynical. You can reimagine and update the story setting without changing such characters. It's their struggle for keeping the ideals in this kind of environment what makes it more interesting.

    The same should be done with Optimus Prime.
     
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  14. MegaPrime1007

    MegaPrime1007 The Great Defender of the Movieverse

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    And it has been done. In AoE Optimus literally tells the Autobots that, although he has sworne to never kill humans, the man behind the Autobot killings is going to die by his hands.
    Optimus struggled with his morals and became broken because of all the crap he has put up with. Unless you want some boring superficial unrealistic character, then Movie Prime fits your bill of a character struggling with their own morals.
     
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  15. MegaPrime1007

    MegaPrime1007 The Great Defender of the Movieverse

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    It makes me laugh how so many people hate idolized characters being deconstructed and demoralized in such a manner as Snyder's Superman and Bay's Prime. Like, none of you people are even close to being similar to these superior characters anyway (or even trying or aspire to be in the least way) so why the hell are you complaining?! :lol 
     
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  16. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    The DCEU had already taken up the title Murder-verse so everyone else is left with scraps to cover a film makers strange obsession with killing off characters.
     
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  17. WishfulThinking

    WishfulThinking "Don't touch it! It's evil!"

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    I agree...to a point. If Superman is just Superman, then there's no place for the character to go to grow for a story. In that case, everyone else is required to grow around him. And if you're trying to a do a Superman film, do you want Superman to be the main character? Or Lois or Jimmy?

    That's the struggle that writers have when going into a Superman movie. Man of Steel was okay in that we get to see Superman become the icon that is Superman...he makes mistakes but he's able to overcome them and come to peace. It's BvS that shits all over where we end up at the end of MoS.
     
  18. Haywired

    Haywired Hakunamatatacon

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    Which basically equals to "I've sworn to never to do this but I'm going to do this anyway".

    The Bayhemus Prime characterisation is inconsistent, delivered mostly in short speeches and his actions swing both ways in a manner that makes him look bipolar. Also, becoming broken is pretty much where it fails. A paragon in a non-ideal world is interesting when he keeps to carry on even when it's not an easy, often painful, thing to do. Otherwise he's just yet another character populating the setting.

    And the point of disliking Snyder's Superman or Bay Optimus is that those characters don't need to be brought down to the audience level to work. People don't have to be like them to have justified issues with the deconstruction.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
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  19. JazzIsBeast

    JazzIsBeast Well-Known Member

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    They're the most popular versions, but in all honesty, they pale in comparison to the stuff in the comics. In fact, Batman's whole characterization in the Nolan trilogy is just off. Batman isn't meant to be revered; he's not meant to be a shiny example deserving of a statue; that's not Batman from the comics at all. He's meant to be feared, not respected; he uses brutal methods to put down criminals (not that weak stuff we saw in the Nolan or Burton films [I love the Nolan movies, btw]) in order to gain that fear. His fight against justice is more than simply putting the bad guys away; it's a physical manifestation of the darkness brewing inside him. A lot of these aspects are completely lost in the Nolan and Burton films (TAS Batman was obviously a cartoon, so I give it a pass). His cynism is what leads him to even mistrust those closest to him (his own JLA members). He trusts no one, and even in times of peace, he's always thinking about the worse.

    "Criminals are a terror. Hearts of the night. I must disguise my terror. Criminals are cowardly. A superstitious terrible omen. A cowardly lot. My disguise must strike terror. I must be black. Terrible. Criminals are a superstitious cowardly lot. I must be a creature. I must be a creature of the night. Mommy's dead. Daddy's dead. Brucie's dead. I shall become a bat."

    I mean, my God, Batman's anger and violence have been KEY to making him what he is today. Those are a big part of what makes him Batman.

    the Dark Knight Returns, Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth, Batman: The Heart of Hush, & JLA: Tower of Babel all portray this perfectly, along with a host of other of his more popular stories.

    Batman is the definition of a cynical, violent, brooding hero, and people don't read Batman comics because they want to see him point to other heroes as a shinning example

    The only reason that the Nolan Trilogy, Burton films, and TAS Batman are so popular is because they're tv shows and movies that were BUILT OFF DECADES OF BATMAN HISTORY; even if they were trash, they'd still be immensely popular

    Bay Optimus Prime is more popular than G1 Prime; does that mean that Bay prime should be the go to Prime for all future prime characterizations?
     
  20. Galvatron II

    Galvatron II I can type whatever here?

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    Well the thing is they’re stupid deconstructions. And one of them is almost 100% for sure unintentional

    Logan is a smart Deconstruction. Bayformers is not.

    What’s nice about them is that even as they struggle and go through hardship, we see that it’s still possible for a good person to have their heart in the right place.

    “Be good to others and you can be a Superman too.” -Superman’s dying message to the people of Earth, as etched into the moon in The Last Days of Superman. Maybe you think that’s corny but I think there’ll always be room for that lesson

    I would fuck up a Superman’s Girlfriend Lois Lane movie. Or a Superman’s Pal Jimmy Olsen.

    But I think in most Superman stories, he might be the main character in the sense that he gets the most focus. But the real protagonist is the world around him, because the world around him is the one that’s changed by the end of the story. Usually.

    Stories where he die (which are almost as foundational to the character as his origins at this point) see the ultimate point of the character shine most purely; in the face of the ultimate hardship, sacrifice, etc. with every motivation and reason to give up or change course, he elects not to change

    In the public eye, there is no “Bay Prime” or “G1 Prime”. There’s just Optimus Prime. And Bay’s take hasn’t really redefined his role as everyone’s robot dad at all, they’ve just introduced more people to it.

    The question if all the violent non sequiturs are doing it or the scenes of him being a comforting, paternal presence. I’d say the latter
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
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