So long Murder Prime, we hardly knew ya.

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Lovecraft, Jun 9, 2018.

  1. Cryptwire

    Cryptwire Cybertronian Engineer/Sniper

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2010
    Posts:
    1,234
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Location:
    Restored & Unified Cybertron
    Likes:
    +699
    where are the hints of Optimus's PTSD throughout the movies though? I see this bandied about, but just like Galvatron II stated, this is not shown in the movies. which has been basically the staple of bay movies anyway. they just make the movie-goer make the connection, when there is none, and somehow retcon it to existing events.

    as stated, there are no instances in the movies where it shows or conveys Prime PTSD or that he suffers from it. not a single scene that i know of throughout the movies from RoTF until TLK. it would've been an interesting angle to explore, & as Galvatron II mentioned, would be an interesting psychological profile & would give a multi-layered dimension to Optimus's personality and character. I do agree with him that it would've been more interesting to use this suffering and have Prime himself engage in anything opposite that he had stood for without resorting to him being Nemesis Prime because the PTSD is Nemesis Prime. that would have been interesting.

    But, nope. Again, bay's movies failed to convey this, even if this was even on the table. but i doubt bay is the type of film-maker that shows a character's damaged psyche as a deeper examination of the character.

    EDIT: to top it off, though, if there was anybody who could have convincingly and realistically presented a character suffering from the effects of PTSD, it would've been michael bay, since he knows the military and has worked with them for so long. like i stated, it would've been interesting if bay had added this character layer to Prime as a commentary in the Transformers live action movies. but as all others in this, it had always been a wasted opportunity.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
    • Like Like x 4
  2. Galvatron II

    Galvatron II I can type whatever here?

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2013
    Posts:
    4,129
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Likes:
    +341
    I think AoE displays a genuine effort at tackling the damaged angle. They are trying to put Optimus Prime in a darker place than he's ever been.

    But his first words in the movie are, "I'll kill you!" Think about that. Instead of pointing the gun and saying, "Get back... Stay back!" which would show him as wounded, vulnerable, defensive, they immediately have him on the offensive, as usual, spewing violent threats. Because it's not about painting him in a tragic, complex, or interesting light; it's about him being a badass. Always.

    The movie starts with him in this darker place (which is not dramatically any different than where he's been before), and illustrates this with the whole "I've sworn never to kill humans... But when I found out who's behind this, he's going to die." Or some such.

    Now, let's put on our little screenwriter caps; what is the arc? Where do we go from here? Well, duh doy; he grows and changes so that when he gets his chance for revenge against Attinger, he turns it down! Or doesn't, if you want the sad, Godfather Part II ending, but given that this is a four quadrant blockbuster I don't think they'd go there.

    What does the movie actually do? They have Attinger threaten Cade, so that when Optimus does kill him, it's totally justified and not him giving in to his dark side. This is not complex, or interesting, or a moral dilemma. The movie sets up a desire for revenge, and then literally sets up a scenario that justifies it.

    Now, to be clear, I'm not saying that Prime did the wrong thing. I'm also not saying that Attinger didn't deserve to die. I just think this really illustrates the storytellers' goals; instead of our hero growing or changing or learning a lesson, they contrived a scenario where the protagonists' (and by extension, our) baser urges were validated and justified. That's the opposite of mature, complex storytelling.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  3. Cryptwire

    Cryptwire Cybertronian Engineer/Sniper

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2010
    Posts:
    1,234
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Location:
    Restored & Unified Cybertron
    Likes:
    +699
    Yup. Sadly, this is really is what the root of bay's Transformers movies: they're basically just mindless, popcorn movies. that has just become a self-fulfilling prophecy as time went by. remember we're talking about the span of 10 years. it took TLK to notice these systemic problems in bay's TF movies starting with RoTF. take note we're not asking for "Citizen Kane" or "Cybill" or "One flew over the Cuckoo's Nest". just a little bit of exploration of the characters, their personalities, their (meaningful) interactions and relationships amongst each other and their environment, and some decent storytelling. which the MCU accomplishes successfully and you can see the results: consistent box office successes.

    for example, i've just seen "Thor: Ragnarok" yesterday as i was binging on Travis Knight's movies looking to get a glimpse of what i hope where Knight could take the Transformers live-action franchise. With Thor, it managed to pique my interest from beginning to end. i could easily see Grimlock with Hulk's personality. but nope. in bay's movies, Grimlock just roared and grunted and in TLK, he just spent his time in his alt-mode. And after killing some Cons... he and the other Dinobots were just, gone.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
    • Like Like x 4
  4. Pichomp

    Pichomp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2006
    Posts:
    242
    Trophy Points:
    157
    Likes:
    +669
    Well I, for one, can’t wait for the Optimus prequel.
    AB862B56-8E03-42F5-BCBF-3ECB43F8E7CD.gif
     
    • Like Like x 3
  5. Galvatron II

    Galvatron II I can type whatever here?

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2013
    Posts:
    4,129
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Likes:
    +341
    I think the MCU is mostly competent and kind of coasts on their really good entries (all the Captain Americas, the first Avengers, the back half of Guardians 2 and all of the first one, Iron Man and IM3, etc.) but that's certainly better than AoE and TLK's total lack of giving a damn.

    What's really sad about that is that '07 and Dark of the Moon are movies where you can see everyone swinging for the fences and trying their hardest; they have their miscalculations and wrongheaded moments (the whole waste of money that is the Driller, Bee peeing on Simmons) but there's a real emotional journey in them that you can follow and connect with. Sam is a compelling protagonist with compelling relationships to the people around him (even if the lessons he learns are demonstrated in kind of iffy ways) in a way that Cade simply isn't. Optimus and Bumblebee are also really well, if somewhat sparsely, drawn in those films.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  6. SouthtownKid

    SouthtownKid Headmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2011
    Posts:
    20,378
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    322
    Likes:
    +4,392
    I wish it also meant goodbye to all the complaining about him. But I doubt it.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  7. Pichomp

    Pichomp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2006
    Posts:
    242
    Trophy Points:
    157
    Likes:
    +669
    Then Optimus kills Lockdown from behind, and says “Honor to the end”. Huh?

    Optimus likes to kill from behind as much as he likes ripping faces. In Memoriam: The Fallen (RotF), Megatron (DotM), Sentinel Prime (DotM), Helicopter guy in the woods (RotF), Attinger (AoE), and Lockdown (AoE). All “sentient beings” Prime killed from behind. I’m probably missing some as they never found all the bodies.;) 

    Side note: How freaking strong is Mark Wahlberg that he can hold off Lockdown in a sword battle. Also, when he stops the Knights from killing Optimus by blocking a full on sword swing with his wrist sword thing.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  8. Pichomp

    Pichomp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2006
    Posts:
    242
    Trophy Points:
    157
    Likes:
    +669
    Complaining? He was the most entertaining thing is these cinematic turds.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. 96megatron

    96megatron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2013
    Posts:
    1,183
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    197
    Likes:
    +2,068
    AOE with Lockdown Blade it looked like it got bent from hitting that Alien Weapon Cade had.
    For TLK most likely the Tailsman thing gave him a power up.
     
  10. Hound89

    Hound89 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2009
    Posts:
    2,488
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +485
    The honor to the end bit was twords cade and his bravery
     
  11. Pichomp

    Pichomp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2006
    Posts:
    242
    Trophy Points:
    157
    Likes:
    +669
    6DD62BA5-6ADD-456F-8A3C-1168D104F479.gif
    Optimus said it as he was running Lockdown through.
    If he was honoring Cade’s bravery, then I would think Optimus would have said it after Cade was safe... without the growl. I could be misremembering the scene as I was still numb from the two plus hours of WTF that preceded it.

    And with that...
    4C6508F2-0C2C-45A6-9109-24C25DBB5DF0.gif
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Hound89

    Hound89 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2009
    Posts:
    2,488
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +485
    Your misrembering it, he said it after he finished of lockdown looking at cade
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Galvatron II

    Galvatron II I can type whatever here?

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2013
    Posts:
    4,129
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Likes:
    +341
    "Honor to the end" is a weird ass thing to say in that moment. The word Knights has come up (unexplained) but it hardly fits with the themes of the movie. I see why Cade sticking with him would be meaningful at that moment but they should have planted something in the dialogue earlier for him to pay off there.

    Again, just lazy
     
    • Like Like x 3
  14. voust

    voust a man & a lover

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2009
    Posts:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    67
    Location:
    in your head
    Likes:
    +70
    My boy Prime just was on them good ol' bath salts tripping balls! No need for hate. He needs rehab.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
  15. ObakaChanTachi

    ObakaChanTachi Unknown Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2018
    Posts:
    148
    Trophy Points:
    77
    Likes:
    +237
    Instagram:
    YouTube:
    To be fair, Prime’s been through quite a lot in a timespan of just 5 movies, tldr;

    1. He lost his homeplanet
    2. His brother turned on him, killed his friend (Jazz) and Optimus himself once.
    3. His former mentor and father figure went “screw you!” on everything he ever taught Optimus, became a god wannabe who nearly killed him and was directly responsible for millions of deaths including two Autobots (Ironhide and Que)
    4. Optimus fought with all his strength to protect humans from the Decepticons, once they died out humans...
    5. Began hunting down Prime and the Autobots after they saved their asses from the Decepticons three times and TWICE when they still had a prize on their heads

    Besides, Prime is in a war situation. It’s either kill or get killed, do you expect Prime to just forgive Megatron, Sentinel, or literally any Decepticon after all the chaos they caused? If he’s looking for a way to get killed, I assume the answer would be yes.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2007
    Posts:
    15,451
    Trophy Points:
    337
    Likes:
    +2,222
    It seems like the different forms of entertainment all end up with a no heroes phase they have to get out of their system. That if you call the heroic ideal corny and hokey that somehow makes you all hip and edgy.

    Occasionally a creative team comes up with a really interesting idea to question the whole hero concept but you can't just slap that concept on everything and get it to work. What works for a good Punisher story can't just be slapped onto Spider Man because it doesn't fit Peter Parker to just suddenly go out and kill people on purpose.

    The production team on the Transformers movies threw around the word "dark" so often you would think someone in marketing was giving them $20 every time they said dark. It seemed like a trend to dark, gritty, grim, whatever they were calling realism, and all the associated terms after The Dark Knight was such a powerhouse with both critics, the box office, and pop culture. Studios didn't really take away the right lessons from the film they just decided hey lets slap a coat of dark soul on everything and watch the money roll in. I don't think it was so much hey we can tell an interesting story if we strip away the good guy stuff on Prime as much as it was hey this is what other studios are doing right now.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  17. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2008
    Posts:
    17,100
    News Credits:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    302
    Location:
    Somewhere over Macho Grande
    Likes:
    +4,437
    Only one like? C’mon- a person should be able to give this, like, FIVE likes.

    The ‘face’ line had a greater context in who the other character he was interacting with.

    This was G1 Prime hands down in a PG-13 setting.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  18. JazzIsBeast

    JazzIsBeast Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2013
    Posts:
    405
    Trophy Points:
    122
    Likes:
    +221
    Are you guys still calling him that????

    What are you, ten?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Haywired

    Haywired Hakunamatatacon

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2014
    Posts:
    4,623
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +3,031
    Murderhappymus Prime sounds better.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Dotmshockwave

    Dotmshockwave Decepticon Assassin

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2014
    Posts:
    1,316
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    197
    Likes:
    +471
    Google+:
    Well. The two theories for bay’s movies are he is either a genius or just good at directing action/hack (likely the second). I agree with the PTSD not being explored at all in Prime’s character. But that is kinda what I mean. It is NEVER TOUCHED UPON besides a tiny bit in AOE. That’s my point. Which is why murder prime seems even more messed up.

    I mean that’s kinda what I am saying. You’d think that everything movie prime has gone through they would have stated the issue or talked about it. But they do not. Which is kinda unnerving. And also in a way very much like real life PTSD. And I can tell you straight up it is. Because I have have it. It simply becomes kinda a part of your character and people can DEFNINTELY tell something is wrong. But if it never explicitly stated then it really unnerves people about a persons actions. Which is why movie prime is so unnerving to some people. Because this dude CLEARLY has something wrong. But it’s never touched upon (like galvatross 2 said this is obviously for simply bay not being able to really display it in a great light). But in a weird way I personally think that is why I enjoy it more. Cause I can relate. You can’t tell people what your going through. You just have to live through it. And people can only truly understand what your going through by the actions you commit. And Primes actions in the movies clearly speak louder then his long dramatic words.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page