So long Murder Prime, we hardly knew ya.

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Lovecraft, Jun 9, 2018.

  1. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Indie Musician, Scumbag Jesus

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    So among all the Bee Movie hype I've scarcely seen it mentioned, but I know it to be true. Murder Prime is no more.

    Murder Prime was a divisive anomaly, but no one can deny the pure intrigue of just how wrong Michael Bay and his team got Optimus Prime. They got him so wrong it made Peter Cullen uncomfortable. Maybe I'm also psychotic for finding that fascinating but here I am.

    They got him so wrong it became so right. I look at all 5 Bay films as self parodies. Memes. They're popcorn flicks and movies to rip on, and there's a few nuggaty pieces of real substance in there too. But Murder Prime has always been what brings me back to the theatres. So god damn interesting, in my opinion anyway.

    But surely, with this "new chronology" and Travis Knight steering the ship, Murder Prime is a thing of the past. 10 years and 5 movies of foaming at the mouth lunacy with a professional and committed performance, despite his reservations, by living legend Peter Cullen.

    Maybe since this reboot is still clearly a Bayverse reboot they'll keep the unique Prime take but somehow I doubt that.

    So long, Murder Prime, rest easy and proudly in the depths of our pop culture history. I'll keep your memory alive, at least.
     
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  2. Galvatross

    Galvatross Online Fandoms Suck! Veteran

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    I thought Bay Optimus was fine. My biggest issue with him was the underuse of Nemesis Prime. Overall, I saw Bayverse Prime as the core G1 character if that character lived in a more violent and treacherous universe without the constraints of a Saturday morning cartoon. He killed, sometimes in brutal ways, but there was no indication he enjoyed it. Yeah, "Give me your face," is an odd line, but other than that I was fine with him.
     
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  3. primal789

    primal789 Prime

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    Exactly how I feel about it.Not to mention G1 Optimus told Megatron he's "yesterday's model ready for the junkheap" and then he called him "junk".
     
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  4. DOTM Bumblebee

    DOTM Bumblebee I must be some kind of nut...

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    And Movie Prime, during the forest fight, also addressed Megatron as "junkyard crap".
     
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  5. eagc7

    eagc7 TF Movieverse fan

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    Lets too not forget the most important thing, this is a war, here its Kill or be killed. I am sure Optimus would prefer it if there was another way, but he's put in a situation where he has to kill in order to survive and save the others.

    Sure there are times where Bay got a bit to far with Prime, but still when you are fighting in a war, you have to kill
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
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  6. Seth Sunthay

    Seth Sunthay ElusoryMonk

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    >being leader
    >not killing
    >let your friends being killed anyway


    But yeah, AOE's Prime got psycothic.
     
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  7. primal789

    primal789 Prime

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    He's been through a lot in the recent years before AOE.His mentor teamed up with the enemy and then after all he did the reward was being hunted by the very people he sacrificed even his planet to protect.But still even after he wanted to leave Earth he still went back into protecting the humans.If you can do that and still keep your sanity then it's a true wonder..
     
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  8. Seth Sunthay

    Seth Sunthay ElusoryMonk

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    I know, however, it still felt too far from his basics.
     
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  9. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    Movie Prime is divisive less for what he does and more how he does it. Much like almost everything in the movies the weird, detached, inhuman way scenes and dialogue play out muddle and skew the actions and events into uncomfortable territory. When he is snarling "give me your face" and "we will kill them all" and "you die" it takes what should be a fairly straightforward fight and makes it seem like some sort of sadistic indulgence on Optimus' part. it's not helped that Prime is otherwise played completely straight and without bravado or anything but a straight edge to his character. It's such an awkward contrast that makes him seem genuinely unhinged instead of someone who is logically and humanly moving through emotions. Rather than just turning from one state of mind to the next, he powerslides around the bend and wipes out mailboxes and pedestrians and hits other cars as he shifts moods violently and unpredictably. And he is never, ever self aware about it. He never shows signs that this loss of composure is a loss of composure. He never feels regretful about his violent bouts nor does he show any inkling that it's a deviation from his normal demeanor.

    Optimus fights. Obviously. It's what he does. He doesn't like it, but he does it. But he doesn't do it like movie Optimus does. The best version of movie Optimus was in AOE, where his state of mind was deliberately shown as abnormal. A result of stress, injury, guilt, and pain. It was the only time I bought the "he's just war-weary is all" excuse. But no, the stress of war does not excuse or explain his previous examples in ROTF and namely DOTM. Because if he were really the headcase people claim he is (even though those people know damn well it wasn't intentional at all) he'd show signs of that outside of battle. But no, he goes from calm, stoic and at times even gentle Optimus to something else entirely. And it's jarring.

    I don't think Bay got Optimus wrong so much as he failed to realise the character properly. It's more incompetence, not malice, that makes Prime feel like he's some kind of psychotic. Because in Bay's mind, heroes are infallible, iconic, and above reproach... but he also wants action scenes where the combatants just lay into each other, and really fight tooth and nail, and rip each other to pieces. The fact that Optimus acts squeaky clean but routinely hops right into the filth along with everyone else is what makes people dislike him so much.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
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  10. Paok

    Paok Well-Known Member

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    Murder Prime is the result of placing an established character in a tone he wasn't created to be in. It's a symptom of ill-conception and lack of proper vision. Prime was conceived to be an endlessly idealistic and principled character, similarly to Superman. He's the character you always, always expect to find the smartest, bravest, least violent solution to the most impossible problems and moral dilemmas and you'd never imagine him truly losing his shit and going, well... Murder Prime. Besides, he's the damn leader. It should be shown why everyone depends on him NOT to lose his shit. When he does, why would they keep following him?

    This character archetype, often relates to how kids perceive and idealize father figures. That's completely lost once you start deconstructing the character from a cynical standpoint ("Not your daddy's Prime!") and by placing him in a dark and gritty tonal space just to make him cool and edgy. What remains is an effective war machine that the movie asks us to cheer for. Yes, it's a war story, yes there's killing, yes the way it's presented it makes sense for the narrative presented. But that's not helping the character, which in turn doesn't help the overall viewing experience and emotional attachment. All those aspects (tone, character development, plot) should work with one another to elevate the sum of it all. You can avoid placing the hero in a scenario where he seems glad to execute his foes point blank. It's fiction! You can choose to do that! You can easily create a tone in which it wouldn't suspend disbelief for a character like Prime to exist.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
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  11. Meta777

    Meta777 Dr Pepper Fan

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    When Decepticons want to scare each other, they tell Movie Optimus stories.
     
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  12. Matrixbeast

    Matrixbeast Here comes a thought

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    When Superman killed Zod, he snapped his neck in a quick and painless fashion.
    He yelled out in defeat because he had to sink to Zod's level and was clearly hurt by his own actions, but he did what he needed to do to "Protect" those around him.

    When Optimus killed the Fallen, he violently ripped off his face.
    That's not something a war hero who is only doing what he has to do does. On the battlefield, Optimus's brutality is more fitting for how the villains should fight.
     
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  13. Seth Sunthay

    Seth Sunthay ElusoryMonk

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  14. Hound89

    Hound89 Well-Known Member

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    G1 optimus once approved of a device to brainnwash devastator.

    Thats is worse then ANYTHING movieverse prime dose

    Also optimus has always been a warrior and a soldier forst and forwmost, he isnnot super man, he is always willing to kill.

    Optimus in the movies is efficent and brutal but he is still a paragon the other characters look too, why because what they go up against cant be fought with any thing less then 100%.

    No child that grew up with the movies thinks less of optimus because he's not an idot in dealing with his enemies.
     
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  15. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    What got me was the inconsistency. One moment he's the kind wise old robot the next moment he's a raging murder machine. Instead of a thought out personality the production team just seemed to pull whatever they needed out of nowhere.

    Although I guess it does say something that Peter Cullen could do multiple versions of Prime per film.
     
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  16. Hound89

    Hound89 Well-Known Member

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    Thats not inconsistent

    One moment hes in combat the next hes not.

    Cant really spout words of wisdom when some ones trying to kill you
     
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  17. 96megatron

    96megatron Well-Known Member

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    I liked Murder Optimus Prime it made sense for the Post-Apocalyptic feel of Transformers Becoming Savage and War Like as the war went on. As I don't think G1 Optimus Prime would have survived in this world without becoming Movie Optimus Prime. And I think there is two sides to Movie Optimus his Yin Side that wants peace and to talk thing over and his yang side who is brought out when the yin side doesn't work. Wanted to settle things peacefully with the Decepticons by destroying the cube so they wouldn't have a reason to fight each other anymore. After the Allspark was Destroyed and The Decepticons kept coming and wrecking stuff Optimus had to go for a more lethal method to stop the Decepticons to protect his Autobot Brethren and Human Allies so what happened with Jazz doesn't happen again. Which is the only thing the Decepticons listen to. Played by human rules because he was in their house to certain degree, but when screwed over responded appropriately. Respectfully asked Grimlock for help and to be free from their respective captors Grimlock tried to crush him, so Optimus had to get him to help a less polite way.
     
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  18. 96megatron

    96megatron Well-Known Member

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    I mean he spoke words of wisdom, but then Megatron shot him...
     
  19. drbeakman

    drbeakman Well-Known Member

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    What
    [​IMG]
     
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  20. JimTheJIRRMan

    JimTheJIRRMan Ensign

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    There’s a difference between being “in combat” and seemingly unhinging in combat. You can have character consistency between moments of peace and combat. But again, when he says things like “we will kill them all,” and “give me your face” and “You die!” it’s a bit different. Those are moments in which characteristics are established that are inconsistent with the wise leader who is striving for peace.

    Also, apart from dialogue, his *actions* are inconsistent. In movie 1, he mourns the loss of Megatron. 4 years later, when Megatron offers a truce, a CEASE FIRE, PEACE, Optimus decides to rip his head off. Makes no effort to hear him out, makes no effort to reach out to his brother. The conflict has seemingly ended, but prime pushes or further.
     
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