So About Megatron...

Discussion in 'Transformers Comics Discussion' started by AnomusPrime, Jun 10, 2017.

  1. RNSrobot

    RNSrobot Keeper of the Waspinator Swarm. Blam.

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    Ugggggh are those the canonical numbers?

    It's actually too much, IMO. It's a huge number but it gets a point where it's absurd. That's where the "four million years" and "trillions" and "one billion humans during AHM" don't seem real; not because they're incomprehensible numbers but because they make my eyes roll back in my head so hard you can hear a thump. It's absurd. I loathe AHM saying 1/6 of the Earth's population were killed, because it doesn't jibe with ANYTHING written in AHM or afterwards, much less how life on Earth is presented. But that also goes into a fuckton of problems with AHM in general which will just make me angry so moving on.

    But those huge numbers, IMO, are simply too much. Even the four million year number for the year. It's silly. The war being a few hundred thousand years? Cool. Annnnnnnnnyway.

    There are bad eggs in the Autobots, or Autobots who were despicable but fought against the "bad guys" or did bad things to keep the greater good (I mean, that's Prowl's whole shtick at this point). Both Wreckers minis do a great job with those ideas. But most Bots are, ultimately, fighting for peace and fighting for those who can't stand up to the Decepticons. And while some Cons have higher ideals, the majority are murderers and brutes. That's who Megatron ultimately ends up attracting and commanding. Few are like Soundwave: true believers.
     
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  2. raindance773

    raindance773 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, I appreciate that.

    I would offer two counters (again, not done to proselytize). First, for Asoka, and by extension Megatron, I would offer that Asoka, and Megatron, lack a sacrifice of proper importance and scope, or at least didn't recognize the one presented to them. Asoka is absolutely correct in his own assessment: no sacrifice man, as a species, can offer is equal to the weight of all our guilt, just as Megatron can offer nothing equal to his sins. Megs' death alone makes no difference (as many have said) for the death of the guilty is punishment; it's justice. Second, I would offer (again, please bear with me and again not proselytizing) that the core tenant of mainline, orthodox Christianity is that God Himself, in the form of Jesus Christ, willing becomes the sacrifice of equal merit. Thus, the substitutionary death of Christ becomes mankind's redemption.

    Now, linking that logical path back to Transformers, and Megatron in particular, there is no robo-Jesus, despite how OP is written at times. LOL. There may be Messiah-like characters, but none doing the redeeming in quite the way Jesus did. However, if you take the same logical template of an innocent giving themselves for the sinner, I would offer Megatron has had his own substitutionary death to some extent: Bumblebee. For as annoying as he was, as much as people love to rag on him, Bumblebee was innocent, and always has been. Bumblebee is the child friendly face of the entire franchise. Bumblebee is the one we pitch to kids. He's like Elmo with a gun and who becomes a car.

    I would also add the words of Saint Paul, "for rarely will someone die for a just person - though perhaps for a good person someone might even dare to die." If set Bumblebee up to be Megatron's sacrifice, I would say parts of the story can work. Bumblebee goes to die with Megatron. In Bumblebee, the innocent goes down to die with the monster.

    In that light, I would say the repentance arc for Megatron makes more sense, as do his efforts to reform himself. I would caution though, that saying Bumblebee is Megatron's lamb is taking Transformers down a road that intermixes closely with traditional Christian theology and thereby opens up an entirely different can of worms, and it only works using the Judeo-Christian definition of redemption. Again, happy to discuss that in great depth in a PM, but forum has rules and I might be overstepping and putting my faith in the forum already. If I have, please overlook the error. :) 
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
  3. raindance773

    raindance773 Well-Known Member

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    I've always though 4 million years is too long, especially given the mortality rate of IDW. The species would have been extinct long ago, or had some serious lulls in the war.

    And you're right, the body count is high, but I'm pretty sure those are canon.

    I would say again, Starscream had it partly right: Megs lit the fuse, but he also enjoyed being part of the bomb.
     
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  4. RNSrobot

    RNSrobot Keeper of the Waspinator Swarm. Blam.

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    Assuming one subscribes to plenary substitution atonement theology, as opposed to, say, liberation theology or other alternative, but supported, interpretations that simply aren't the mainstream thrust of north american protestant evangelical christianity. wholllle other can of worms there. =D =D =D

    I don't agree that Megatron needs some kind of "sacrifice" to find redemption. I do think looking at Bumblebee has value. It was Bee's words throughout a time, and his death/manner of, that seemed to really galvanize (heh) Megatron. A required sacrifice for Megatron to find redemption? I am not convinced such a thin gis necessary.
     
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  5. GoLion

    GoLion Sé que me estás robando

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    I thought there were some lulls in the war. The 6 phases from way back when were a part of slowing the actual battles down.

    It really did seem like the only surviving Autobots and Decepticons were the characters on earth. Only after Costa, and later Roberts, came on board did more and more characters start popping up.
     
  6. RNSrobot

    RNSrobot Keeper of the Waspinator Swarm. Blam.

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    Stormbringer?
     
  7. GoLion

    GoLion Sé que me estás robando

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    That's true. I forgot about those bots. Damn. Still, definitely didn't seem like there were a lot of transformers left in the entire universe.

    I could have sworn I read there was less than 1000 or something. I could be remembering wrong, though.
     
  8. Calvatron

    Calvatron Active Member

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    Well, this theory only works if we count the senate and sentinal prime as a pre existing group called the autobots and the orion pax rebranded any autobots loyal to a civil society with standards of fairness as the resistance autobots to megatron's rebellion so it kinda require the -acracies to be cannon since that's where they originated from. The functionalists were not not the same as the autobots since the autobots seemed to be the whole senate and functionalists simply a prevailing party in the government. Bur basically the whole force loyal to nova, sentinal, nominus(i know that's a fake) and zeta prime in the legislative and executive branches plus all the general populous that supported their power. So outside of the roberts past stories it really require the -acracies to be cannon and such stories build off of that established world reifying it as such mostly. I am also taking argument with the number of deaths being a guilt level. The number of russians that stalin murdered is not larger than the number of russians that died resisting the nazis. Those murdered by stalin died because he was a monster, but those that died in ww2 were victims of war, which while horrible for all the reasons they died, war is still an accepted activity. It's different. The functionalists weresimply zealots who didn't acknowledge that their actions were wrong where for 99.99999% of the war megatron felt the means justified the end and seems to have always acknowledged that it was not good in and of itself.

    Plus the aquitus trials were never fully completed, and many were abandoned before finishing as well as having the whole project swept under the rug and hidden.

    My argument rests on apathy towards harm caused is worse than harm with some good intent and that the reason for causing suffering is more important than the amount of harm caused for the severity of the crime, though to be fair we have no measure of the damage the senate and the functionalists caused.

    My point being that megatrons actions are a response to oppression rather than an overt attempt at it, and that the autobots who resisted his rebellion have never owned up or even attempted the kind of redemption that he has. Their arguement for why he is the bad guy is really based on him being better at organizing and executing killing rather than that his methods and reasons are worse than those he was fighting. don't forget the 'good guy' autobots didn't officially exist until orion justified megatrons rebellion preemptively and he proved to be more successful than the state government. One cannot give good guy points simply because one side is the official state.

    I grant his robo-prejudice is a weak point in my thesis but what i am saying is that no one went on trial or was punished for supporting the senate and the functionalists as well as nova prime's horrendous group( not the ark crew as they were all missing). Prowl is as guilty as thundercracker or sky warp on numbers of murders alone for his role with sentinal prime. Megatron has killed more than anyone else and he has done terrible things, but motive is as important as the act itself and he is less guilty than the pre civil war autobots. There was no emperata or shadowplay with his actuonz and had he won his shop of horrors would have folded up.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
  9. Calvatron

    Calvatron Active Member

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    It was 10,000 from spotlight prowl and that number only included autobots and decepticons, which was proven wrong by levels of magnitude in doop.
     
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  10. Calvatron

    Calvatron Active Member

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    Hey no worries. I was a historical religion major so there is a pretty big difference between the jesus one studies in faith and the one i studied in college (actual hostorians didn't exist then, tons of opinion and unverified stuff was added to all the texts that counted as historical narratives back then) i'm not trying to drag the discussion into a no go zone i just wanted to bring up a very different perspective of what redemption can mean in different cultures. Btw, asoka was considered to be a very effective and moral ruler in his day and now and his religious conversion was more personal than public doctrine and outside of banning live sacrifice mostly gave him a moral guideline rather than something forced upon the populous. Prior to that he was basically a warlord given stature similare to julius caeser or alaxander the great within india so i felt he was a good historical example to use regarding megatron.
     
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  11. raindance773

    raindance773 Well-Known Member

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    A multitude of cans in fact.
     
  12. raindance773

    raindance773 Well-Known Member

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    I think the point was the majority of the populace (and again, I want to say it was something like 90 or 99% of the original Cybertronian race just after Megatron:Origin, but that only sounds right in my head) had died in the war. Of course, this was before the Colonies were found, and before NAILs, both of which were brought in to kind of lessen the severity of the war and explain new characters in universe without having to explain a sudden population boom from a previously childless group.
     
  13. RNSrobot

    RNSrobot Keeper of the Waspinator Swarm. Blam.

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    No time to fully read this, but nova prime didn't lead any "Autobots." I don't think it even gets there until nova, so, again, Megatron's resistance is not against Autobots. They don't exist when he's writing.
     
  14. redwolfbear

    redwolfbear Well-Known Member

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    way i see it megatron existing in the functionism dominated alternate universe be a fitting fate for him in the long term one it gives him the opportunity to right every single wrong in his yougner life wiht a rightful action counterpart 2 it gives him a chance to bring about positive change as he desired originally but in the proper sort of way and 3 being that each of these actions in their way could contribute enormously to him having a direct hand to play in the creation of his own personal alternate universe counterpart (assuming it would actually be possible for him to meticulously duplicate a reasonable version of the series of events in the alternate universe that directly led to his creation in his own natural universe originally.

    for all intents and purposes the opportunity for him to actually sire into the alternate universe a natural born version of himself (his being his own father in a sense to his alternate reality counterpart.) put most simply his slipping into a mixed role of macbeth and david xanatose, the macbeth side of him being the history wise historian that actually witnessed and shaped history as it played out originally but being savy enough to take advantage of every single possible point in time to change each series of events in the history of the alternate universe for the better/ the xanatose side of the matter being that while he woudl be cunning suave and amoral in his way he would be a shrewed gambler of fate to ensure that it could all go to plan regardless of how fate/destiny karma would attempt to throw a servo wrench itno the gear works . the guy is extremely adaptable in his way i dare say hes even more crazier prepared then batman in that regard
     
  15. hardlurk

    hardlurk Well-Known Member

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    My favorite example of a character redeeming themselves in MTMTE is when Fulcrum atoned for his sins by becoming a suicide bomber and allying himself with a dangerous inhuman monster. A good Decepticon, IMO.
     
  16. RNSrobot

    RNSrobot Keeper of the Waspinator Swarm. Blam.

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    ... What?
     
  17. hardlurk

    hardlurk Well-Known Member

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    Fulcrum was assigned to be a suicide-bomber. He failed because he was too frightened to do his duty. That got him on Tarn's list. When the DJD caught up with him 10,000 years later, Fulcrum repudiated Tarn, denouncing him as the real traitor to the Decepticon cause. He activiated his suicide-bomb alt-mode, finally carrying out his duty. He also allied himself with Grimlock, a dangerous inhuman monster known for his violence and brutality.

    He's a good Decepticon, in my opinion.
     
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  18. AnomusPrime

    AnomusPrime Very sane, not crazy at all

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    Im really flattered, that you think I am the one who created Oxford Living Dictionary. Unfortunately, it will be quite difficult to have any discussion with you as well if you insist the following:
    If you are even going to ignore a dictionary definition, the likes of which you seem to use as a holy bible, who am I to argue with such contradictions? After all, you are the verbal dictator of the meaning of words, and all must succumb to what one pathetic illogical interpretation, maybe even a religious one, you have chose for us.

    It is far too arrogant for you, a simple human being just like anyone else, to confine the meaning of sins and salvation to your perception of religion. I'm not even concerned about your far-fetched methods of chaining meanings one after another and declare them all "repayment." Such sophistic games are a waste of my time. Sin and salvation do not have to be religious. They can come from anywhere human beings who invented those concepts conform to. They are much more meaningful in psychological and moral senses than whatever religion you are talking about. Look at other cultures, the understanding of sins can be deep-rooted while has nothing to do with religions, and everything to do with morality. But you'd like to think the whole world conforms to your perceptions of those concepts don't you? And only you have authority of it.

    No amount of "absolute" or "definitely" in your sentences is going to mean anything. For from the beginning you and others like you have shown what you want: you are not up for discussion for the meaning of a word, or a concept within a story. You want absolute authority of it.

    If one can just claim authority by stating so, then I may as well try to have some fun, hehe. I hereby dictate: 'your chosen definition of the word "redemption," that it is something only obtained through repayment, is irrelevant by its illogicality, immorality, and its its ill service to advancement of our society.'

    I think we, and by we I do not just mean me and you alone, have some fundamental disagreements about the perceptions of the world, perhaps because we grew up in very different environments. And I'm afraid such disagreements can not be easily reconciled. Please do not take offense.
     
  19. moreprimeland

    moreprimeland Optimus told me to do it! Moderator

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    Watch the SNARK (Rule 1) when posting and don't go any further bringing any type of religious discussion please. Rule 3!
     
  20. Whisky26

    Whisky26 Well-Known Member

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    Considering the announcement about a certain Chaos-bringer coming to IDW-verse in 2018, I wanted to come back to this thread and weigh in!

    As for the whole redemption/forgiveness/atonement thing: I don't think it matters too much if Megatron has achieved it. I think redemption is impossible for him. Megatron, whether rightly or wrongly, is responsible for billions of deaths of innocent (non-Cybertronian) bystanders (I think I have seen numbers of between 1-2 billion humans on Earth alone during AHM). Starscream said it best (when Rattrap tried to blackmail re: Metalhawk at the end of Dark Cybertron in reference to billions of dead Ammonites): they had friends and loved ones and hopes and dreams, just because the ends were good, at that scale of death, there is no justifying the means.

    I think it matters far more that we/the readers see him on this path of atonement and redemption and start to care about him more as a three-dimensional character (as opposed to the G1-inspired despot he started as in IDW-verse).

    As for why it matters to the story that we care about Megatron, my theory is Unicron. I have long believed that James and John have been building and building to do a Unicron story since the current ongoings (RID/MTMTE) began. The story of Unicron in G1 (both Marvel and animated) is epic and universe changing. If you are trying to a story of that scale and want it to matter to readers, you need to make it HUGE and EPIC and have characters who care about. One thing that makes the IDW-verse different from virtually every single other Transformers continuity (G1 or otherwise) is that Galvatron is not Megatron reborn. The scenes of Megatron being turned into Unicron's herald in the original animated movie are some of the most memorable scenes in all of G1 (in my opinion). How do you top that?

    You have a "reformed" Megatron turned into Galvatron by Unicron against his will and forced to fight his former comrades and lead Unicron to destroy Cybertron. It would be up to either Rodimus and/or Magnus to stop him. Megatron (as Galvatron) would probably have a final chance to atone for all his crimes in an act of self-sacrifice. I would address the paradox of turning Megatron into Galvatron at this point, but I am sure by now most of you are screaming "Brainstorm!!!!!!!" at your screens! (Time-paradox Galvatron, you say? I know a guy with a memory-wiping binary gun and a paradox-proof time machine in his briefcase!) Having Ultra Magnus or Rodimus pull the trigger adds the icing to the narrative cake.
     
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