Sentinel Prime's Motivations?

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by SaberPrime, Aug 28, 2011.

  1. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    So I finally seen Dark of the Moon recently and there's one thing in it that really bothers me even more than the whole discussion about how the Autobots can't leave because they don't have a ship. They got here without a ship, they have built in scanners, all they have to do is scan a new alt mode that can fly and they can leave.

    Anyway... someone that bothered me that played threw out the entire movie was the motivations of Sentinel Prime.

    When Sentinel Prime was first brought outline he stressed the dangers of letting the pillars get into Decepticon hands. He actually requested that they be protected, that the Decepticons not even find out they were there.

    However as it turned out, he had already defected to the Decepticons when he said all that, so shouldn't he be trying to find out where his pillars were so he could get them back to the Decepticons rather than wanting to hide from them?

    The way he spoke to Optimus and the other Autobots it was if he thought he believed that they were never going to win the war. He claimed this was the only way to save Cybertron. And he sounded as if he really believed he was doing this for the greater good of their race.

    On the other side of that argument Sentinel Prime told Megatron "I agreed to work with you, not for you. It would be wise to learn the difference." in a very threatening manner. Now if Sentinel was so confident then that he could beat Megatron in a fight then his motivations for joining Megatron in the first place don't make any sense. If it was really because he believed they couldn't beat Megatron then he shouldn't be so confident to be able to stand up to him like that. It's possible he was only confident then because of Megatron's weakened state but even so he should of called off the deal when he realized that the Autobots can win the war.

    I might have some respect for the guy if I actually believed that he thought he was doing the right thing but given that he could of easily killed Megatron I just think he was a bigger douche than Animated. At least Animated Sentinel Prime was only a jerk and not a traitor. Movie Sentinel Prime is a jerk AND a traitor. Is this it for Sentinel Prime, he's either going to be the leader before Optimus who gets killed before we learn anything else about him or he's a jerk. Maybe he's both and we just don't know it, I mean if War Within Sentinel Prime had lived long enough would we have found out he was a jerk too?
     
  2. blur3479

    blur3479 Movie Prime Apologist

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    In megatron origins he was just high and mighty much like this sentinel
    When he said I am a prime I don't not take orders from the likes of you
    He feels as if cybertronians should ot be degraded to state of being they are currently at.
    He did what he did to replenish cybertron even though he did it the wrong way he still had some remorse for his people bur not enough to feel guilt
     
  3. Overlord Balder

    Overlord Balder Voices Slugslinger!

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    And what makes you think their boosters are powerful enough to make them exit atmosphere? Thursters with that level of power are [supposedly, according to the Writers] rare, only a select few can pull out feats like that [I.e Megatron], the others need Protoforms [who can only serve as a mean to enter a place, you can't leave a planet by being a freaking meteor] or Spceships [enter XANTHIUM].

    That was probably a gambit of his to ensure that the humans wouldn't be able to have the pillars for themselves.

    Your thinking ultimately makes as much a sense as Sentinel's.

    Both Decepticons and Autobots were once men under Sentinel's command, he witness the War's break-out and eventually realized that the War would never end, so his solution was to "join the winning side" [because staying with the Autobots wasn't helping crap], so he could kill off the Autobots.

    With one side anihilated, The War would end, peace returns and all, classic "Well-Intentioned Extremist" thinking, THAT'S why he allied with the Decepticons: He wanted the War to end, and joining the 'Cons seemed the best strategy for him [and later, the 'Cons were the only faction with guts enough to slave humanity].

    He kicked the crap out of Megatron because he had faith in HIMSELF [which is obvious, given that he pulled out such a treacherous plan without even flinching, showing that he had faith in his skill as a plotter], and because he needed to make clear to Megatron that regardless of the result, he wasn't going to allow Megatron to rule Cybertron as he pleases.

    Sentinel intended to pass a message to Megatron, and he succeded it, he never "lacked faith" in himself, he always thought he was better than Megatron, he only used Megatron as means to an end, once Megatron lost most of his utility, he would execute him [as the movie strongly implied].

    Plus, Megatron was weakened.

    Killing Megatron won't end the War, he has a whole army to back him up, THAT'S why Sentinel switched sides: The Autobots were unable to overwhelm the Decepticons, which lead to the Decepticons eventually winning the War [though they only "officialy" won after Sentinel left Cybertron].

    By joining the Decepticons, however, Sentinel would be able to turn the tide of the battle and end the War once and for all [yes, by comitting genocide on the Autobots, which is why he's the villain of the movie].

    The Decepticons [and Megatron] were means to an end, he was only using them in his plot, after they outrun their usefulness, Sentinel would probably dispose of them.

    Movie-verse Sentinel Prime is not a "jerk", he's a Anti-Villain [or anti-hero, that depends on your views of morality] who thinks in the Greater Good, a Well-Intentioned Extremist, by far the best Sentinel in all continuities.
     
  4. Megabattimus

    Megabattimus Same As It Ever Was

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    Once again, you put better then even I could. Well done. :thumbs2: :bowdown: 
     
  5. einis

    einis Want some candy?

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    this.
     
  6. Dark Autobot

    Dark Autobot Child of G1

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    "You didn't betray me. You betrayed yourself." -Optimus Prime to Sentinel Prime before S.P.'s Death....which he deserved....he betrayed everything he taught Optimus and other Autobots and more importantly....himself.....
     
  7. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    They were able to leave Cybertron as protoforms hence their boosters must be powerful enough to leave Earth unless Earth has a stronger gravitational pull than Cybertron they wouldn't of been able to leave Cybetron in the first place without a space ship. This renders your entirely argument invalid.

    Not to mention Starscream was able to leave the atmosphere of our planet at the end of the first movie and he was flying as an Earth jet that isn't even able to fly that high so we know they're not limited by the Earth modes they choose except in that cars and trucks can't fly. I think the only reason a Jet can't fly up into space is because it's human pilot wouldn't be able to survive and the jet itself would probably fall apart from the change of atmosphere that it wasn't designed to be in. Starscream has no human pilot and he's only limited by his own technology not the technology of the mode he scans. So as long as a vehicle can fly a Transformer should be able to take it higher than it's Earth counterpart could go. Same thing with Optimus being able to drive faster and maneuver in ways that an actual truck his size can not do.

    That still doesn't make sense. The humans already had the pillars locked up. They told him that and he didn't seem to be trying to get them back, he seemed to only want higher security than he thought the humans could provide. His motivations in that scene would of made more sense if he demanded to take the pillars into Autobot protection which he didn't, he let the humans hide them.

    What? Your thinking makes just as much sense as Sentinel's. In fact you just said exactly the same thing that I was just complaining didn't make any sense. How is any of that logical? I gotta quote this again and respond to each paragraph individually, that's too much for me to take at once.

    This started as irrelevant and then went into just wrong. It doesn't matter that Sentinel witnessed the beginning of the war and he wasn't trying to kill off the Autobots. Remember Sentinel order the Autobots to be exsiled, he just wanted them out of the way so they wouldn't interfere. Starscream was the one who attempted to kill them all and I don't think Sentinel was even aware of it. If he was aware of their attempted murders then his motivations make even less sense then I originally thought because he claimed to want for peace for BOTH sides and trying to kill your friends doesn't really invoke peace for both factions.

    Again, normally when you're trying to switch sides to create peace that means you're trying to protect your friends (the Autobots) from being killed in the war by surrendering to your enemy (the Decepticons) and giving them what they want. The way you explain it has nothing to do with peace. That would be invoking more war and more killing so that Sentinel could rule over Cybertron himself. That's not the "good intentions" that he claimed to have. That actually sounds more like what Megatron's motivations should have been, in fact according to the prequel comics that's EXACTLY what Megatron's motivations where when he tried to over throw Optimus Prime. That even seems to a little bit what Beast Machines Megatron's motivations were when he took over Cybertron. So basically Sentinel Prime is actually Megatron showing yet again where the movies can't get their characters right.

    That is the entire point of my argument. Joining the other side to end a war is not something you do if you have faith that you can beat them. That doesn't make sense. Sentinel should not of had any faith in himself then it would of made sense that he would need to join them in order to end the war. You don't switch sides in a war if you're THAT confident that you're able to stand up to the person you're suppose to be at war with. You're suppose to be afraid of them, that's what motivates you to join them so that they don't kill you. If you have no fear of them then you don't really have any motivation to join them. That's why Wheelie was originally a Decepticon, he was afraid of them, he thought working with them was the only way he'd survive the war. That's how you're suppose to act.

    He SHOULD have lacked faith in himself in order for his motivations to make any sense. If he thought that he was better than Megatron then he wouldn't have betrayed the Autobots in order to end the war. Therefore his motivations can not have been what he was saying. If he really intended to execute Megatron and his fellow Autobots that's not at all what he was telling Optimus Prime. Basically what it comes down to is he essentially lied to Optimus about what his motivations were. He couldn't of cared about peace at all or he would of been afraid of Megatron and protecting the other Autobots.

    Again, my point exactly. Sentinel may have been afraid of Megatron at the time he agreed to work with him but when he saw what a weak state Megatron was in he obviously knew he could kill Megatron and end the war right then and there. Seriously if the Decepticons didn't have a leader and the Autobots had both Optimus and Sentinel Prime on their side the war would be over. No one else could stand up to two Primes.

    Plus Optimus said that Sentinel was the one who taught him that freedom the right of all sentient beings and Sentinel wanted to enslave the humans? Does Sentinel actually believe anything he says because all his actions seem to be the exact opposite of what he's saying. It's like the guy can't open his mouth without lying. He makes a perfect Decepticon.

    His army can only back him up while he's alive you know. And that would still mean that he couldn't stand up to Megatron because that would result in his army all pointing their guns at Sentinel Prime but no one seemed to care that Sentinel Prime was standing up to Megatron so it doesn't seem as if anyone is backing him up. In fact it just seems as if the Decepticon army is willing to follow orders from anyone even a guy who still wears Autobot insignias. Hence Carly's little speech to Megatron about Sentinel Prime leading the Decepticons.

    Megatron is always someone else's bitch in the movies. Seriously, the Autobots must be the worst warriors in the universe to be afraid of that guy. He's terrifying if you're a human but it's not hard to scare a human when you're a 50 foot tall robot.

    That's not the point though. The point is that his dialog suggests that he was trying to SAVE the Autobots by joining the Decepticons. He claimed to want peace for both sides not to want to dominate of Cybertron himself as he was acting. His motivations don't make sense because his dialog doesn't fit with his actions which makes everything he said to be a lie. And if everything he said was a lie then it's hard to tell what his actual motivations were.

    Again, if he could dispose of them he wouldn't need to use them.

    What??? What??? Are your logic circuits fried? What greater good? What well intentions?

    A well intended greater good means to join with the Decepticons to SAVE the Autobots. It means that he wasn't confident that any of them would make it out of the war alive if they continued to fight.

    Having the intention to kill both the Autobots and Decepticons alike and having the confidence that you could actually do it by yourself means that your intentions were entirely selfish. In other words, he's the world's biggest jerk!

    What if Superman fought an enemy that was winning and in order to save the Earth he had to join that enemy. It would make sense if joining the enemy actually saved the Earth or if Superman actually couldn't defeat the enemy. But if Superman ends up destroying the Earth AND defeating the enemy that threatened the Earth in the first place how is that logical?

    It's not a means to an end if that end is not the one you claim your intentions to be. You don't kill your friends to save them from being killed.

    Ah Darth Vader, he was a villain with good intentions. He joined the Sith to learn how to keep people from dieing and even bring them back from the dead. (Or at least that's what Palpatine told him, not sure if it was even actually possible or just a ploy to pull Anikin to the dark side.) He ended up killing more people in the process but I think he really believed he could save them.

    Though I suppose Sentinel Prime's motivations might actually make sense if he was indeed thinking like Darth Vader and that's why it refused to take the Matrix of Leadership from Optimus Prime. In other words if he could kill the Decepticons off from within their own ranks than the Matrix could later be used to revive all of the Autobots. But it still seems like a an awfully over complicated plan if he's so sure of himself to stand up to Megatron he should of been so sure that he could end the war without joining him. When Anikin joined the Sith he wasn't so confident in his abilities that he could beat them. The Jedi had him doubting himself and the Sith convinced him that their way was the right one. That's how it should be. That makes sense.
     
  8. Overlord Balder

    Overlord Balder Voices Slugslinger!

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    Actually, it doesn't, there WERE Spaceships in Cybertron, it's VERY LIKELY [unless you believe that the Decepticons managed to somehow destroy every single aicraft existent in the Autobot side before they left the planet, which makes no sense] that they left using them BUT eventually lost most [if not all] of them in the period they fought the War in the "far reaches of space", all in all, now they lacked a "safe port" and were being mercilessly curbstomped by the Decepticons.

    Starscream is an ace in the air as he always shows, he's one of the select few I mentioned.

    Gambit, gambit to ensure the trust of everyone in him, same thing with the Matrix.

    Besides, he was PERFECTLY aware that he could overwhelm human's defenses with a flick of his wrist.

    Sentinel WAS trying to kill the Autobots [or at least bend them to his will, whichever is best fit], he didn't want peace for both sides, he wanted PEACE [regardless of how].

    In War, peace can only be achieved in two ways: Through diplomacy or through complete anihilation of the enemy side.

    Sentinel picked the second one.

    1 - Thing is, you're considering the standard concept of "peace" [i.e Both fighting sides get into a peaceful treaty], Sentinel was applying a more vague concept [i.e "A War can only happen with two sides, if one side is anihilated, there will be no more War = Peace"], he wanted "peace" but through a very amoral way [Read: Killing the shit out of the Autobots].

    2 - He had the good of Cybertron in mind, with the War over [i.e with the Autobots anihilated], Cybertron would be able to live in prosperity [his original objective], and later, with The War over, Cybertron would be brought back to life, thus replenishing a new generation of Cybertronians, he always had the planet's good in mind.

    3 - So it's wrong to turn a generic dead mentor in a complex Anti-hero/Anti-Villain?

    4 - He and movie-verse Megatron have similar objectives [bringing Cybertron back to life], but completely different motivations behind it [Sentinel wants prosperity and peace no matter the cost, Megatron wants to rule with an iron-fist].

    Again, again, Megatron is one INDIVIDUAL, Sentinel is one INDIVIDUAL. You can't win the whole War by yourself man:

    Sentinel = Had faith in his own skills.
    Sentinel = Lacked Faith in the Autobot ARMY.

    Sentinel = Saw the DECEPTICON ARMY as a threat.
    Sentinel = Saw Megatron as a tool and not much of a threat physically.

    On your last part, yes, Sentinel Prime is a hypocrite [the creator of the "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" motto is enslaving an entire race, how ironic].

    As for your part concerning his motives, look earlier in my post to see where I explain precisely what his objectives were.

    Did the War stop when Sentinel crashed on the Moon? Or when Megatron was frozen? Answer: Nope, someone just took their place swiftly [Optimus and Starscream, respectively].

    Kill Megatron, Starscream will take his place and probably rain down the whole goddamn Decepticon Army upon your ass.

    If you somehow managed to single-handedly overwhelm the ridicuously large Decepticon Army [that includes among SEVEN Motherships filled with hordes of flying Drones] and kill off all of its leaders, then yes, Sentinel's motivations make no sense.

    BUT as no one can do that.

    Also, the War on Cybertron HAD both Sentinel and Optimus on the Autobot side, yet they lost.

    Sentinel is a hypocrite, as I stated before.
    He does believe that "The Needs of Many outweight the needs of a few."

    That's because him standing up to Megatron either wasn't enough to warrant killing the crap out of him [after all, he didn't kill Megatron and he was vital to the whole Space Bridge plot] either the 'Cons saw Sentinel as a better leader[conffirming Carly's theory].

    Likely both.

    That's his objective actually, he won't allow Megatron to rule Cybertron as he pleases.

    Seriously? He utterly curbstomped Optimus at Mission City, killed Optimus at the Forest Battle and kicked the living shit out of Sentinel Prime in Chicago.

    Megatron is NOT to be fucked with.

    Actually, his dialogue never implies that:

    "What you must realize my Autobot brothers is we were never going to win the War, and for the sake of our planet's survival a deal had to be made...WITH MEGATRON." *BLAM*

    Notice how ne never says "Autobots" in his motivations, only "OUR PLANET'S SURVIVAL".

    Others situation where he implied he wanted to kill them was:

    "How doomed you are Autobots, you simply fail to understand that the needs of many outweight the needs of a few."

    I mispoke, only Megatron would be disposed.

    Do not take this as an offense, but your thinking is too simplified when it comes to Sentinel: Do you really think "saving the Autobots" is the only good thing that can be done by Cybertronians? His intention was to end the War and bring peace and prosperity to Cybertron [two genuinely noble objectives], what makes him villanous is the fact that he wanted to do so by ENSLAVING AN ENTIRE RACE AND ANIHILATING THE AUTOBOTS.

    His intentions were not selfish, in fact, they were the complete opposite: He betrayed his long-time friends just to save his planet [you can see that he still likes Optimus, given that he actually says in a very heartfelt tone "Forgive me" to Optimus before opening the Space Bridge], he was using the classic "Ends justifies the means".

    His main goal was to end the War [regardless the means] by destroying one side, as he was unable to defeat the 'Cons, he switched side to ensure his planet's survival [Small note: When Sentinel switched sides, Cybertron was turning in e dead wasteland as the time passed, the guy was desperate].

    Did his plan involve Autobots getting killed? They sure did, Were his objetives pure? They surely were, indeed.

    Again dude, you're simplifying the concept of an Anti-Villain to a ridiculous level: Sentinel Prime wanted to save and to bring peace and prosperity to Cybertron [two VERY NOBLE intentions], also he didn't want MEGATRON to rule it [keeping the powerhungry psychopath from rulling Cybertron is also noble], that made him a villain were his "questionable" methods [i.e killing the Autobots and enslaving humanity].

    Regardless, he had noble intentions, that enough counts him as a Anti-Villain, and even MORE so if you notice the scenes where he sounds heartfelt ["Forgive me" to Optimus in Washington, "You must understand why I betrayed you!" to Optimus again in Chicago].

    In fact, his objectives are actually FAR more noble than Darth Vader's objectives were: Notice that Anakin became a genocidal maniac just because he wanted to save his gilfriend, now THAT'S selfish as hell: He doomed the whole goddamn galaxy because to twenty years under the iron fist of a power-hungry genocidial tyrant just 'cos he wanted to save his girlfriend [what's more, he was based on a very vague premonotion that he ended up causing anyway].

    Sentinel is pretty much Darth Vader backwards: He wanted to save his homeplanet, and for such he decided to kill off his personal friends, that's WAY more noble than what Darth Vader did: Darth Vader put himself before others, Sentinel did the contrary.
     
  9. Igniting_Prime

    Igniting_Prime Igniting The Battle

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    :banghead: 

    It's really not that complicated...
     
  10. Koolimus Prime

    Koolimus Prime Weapons Expert

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    Isn't Sentinel the one who taught Optimus "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings"?
    Sentinel literally goes against everything he stood for to rebuild Cybertron at the cost of the Earth. His ancestors gave their own lives to protect the Earth from The Fallen! Sentinel Prime is no better than The Fallen.
     
  11. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    Sentinel was a dick.
     
  12. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Banned

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    We dont know if they came a far way when they came to earth.They may have been parked in a near by area on a ship and just came from there.
    Again, we didnt see them leave Cybertron in their protoforms.

    Its possible they left cybertron on a ship and parked it near earth.

    could be what we saw was some kind of space bridge
     
  13. WreckNRule426

    WreckNRule426 Autobot

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    That's exactly what he wanted them to think.

    Sentinel is only one Autobot, and one Autobot does not an army make. (unlessyoureoptimuswaitwhaaaaaaat???)
     
  14. Avengercon

    Avengercon Banned

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    well said
     
  15. Transfotaku

    Transfotaku Transformer Otaku

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    It's pretty obvious what's going on in the movie. The only way to make it more obvious would be giant 3-d neon signs with what's going on explicitly written out, including the thoughts going in the character's mind as they do something.

    SP wants Cybertron back. Under his command. An entire planet as it used to be.

    Any means to that end, ANY, he uses.

    It's no more complicated than that.
     
  16. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea what any of that has to do with them being Protoforms. The writers said they came up with the Protoform idea because they thought that it didn't really make sense that a Transformer would need a space ship when they could simply turn into one. It seems like the only reason Sentinel Prime had a space ship is because he had cargo. (He mentioned hundreds of pillars that formed the space bridge.) It seems more likely that space ships like the Ark are only used when it wouldn't be feasible to transport equipment by protoforms.

    Now if Optimus and his crew did indeed leave Cybertron in a space ship and not as the protoforms they entered Earth's atmosphere in, then what happen to it?

    Again, death to Autobots is not peace. How peace is achieved has nothing to do with it. Perhaps you should look up the definition of the word peace. What Sentinel was doing was continuing the war from the other side, not ending it.

    Not true, every war has survivors on both sides of the war. It's actually very rare that war leads to the total annihilation of either side and if it did get that far neither side would win. Both sides would be completely wiped out by the war. It's pretty much like chess, if you take out the queen you win. The pawns don't really matter. In a stale mate, nobody wins.

    No I wasn't talking about a peace treaty, I was talking about a surrender. That's two different things. I think I have a better way to explain how what Sentinel was doing is not peace.

    Say, you and I are leading armies fighting over the same territory. (Land) There are three ways this war could end.

    Chess: If you take out the leader of the army, being either you or myself, the rest of the soldiers following our orders don't really matter. They're just pawns. So the land would be seized by the stronger army. The rest of the pawns would either be lost without their leader and stand down or someone might try to replace the fallen leader and be killed. This rarely happens in Transformers however.

    Treaty: You and I sit down and evenly divide the land between us that we were fighting over. The war is essentially over as long as your people stay in your territory and my people stay in mine.

    Surrender: This being what Sentinel Prime claimed to be doing, is when lets say I decide that this war is never going to end and countless people are going to loose their lives. In order to save our people which is again what Sentinel said he was trying to do, I go to you and say, look I'll let you take all of our land if you promise not to kill any more of my people.

    Now what Sentinel Prime was ACTUALLY doing is this.

    Traitor: I go to you and say, I'll help you kill all of my people so that I can ensure my own survival. (Now if I essentially come in and take over your army because if I have the power to kill you and and lead your army myself then I don't need to kill off my own people to end the war. I've already won. Again that would be chess.) Taking your army and using them to kill my own allies would simply be continued war. There's nothing peaceful about that.

    Basically there's fighting threw out the entire movie. That's war. Peace, like Sentinel Prime was talking about would mean that all the killing would have stopped the moment the Decepticons got what they wanted. Of course if the Decepticons continued killing anyway and Sentinel Prime really wanted peace he would of gone back to the Autobot side. What he did was just being a traitor and continuing the war. He's the Benedict Arnold of Transformers.

    Again the war would not be over because he's still killing other Transformers. War is over when the killing stops.

    Killing =/= peace

    Killing = Rule with iron fist.

    Sentinel and Megatron are exactly the same.

    You don't understand how an army works do you? Megatron is not one individual, he's the leader of an entire ARMY.

    Killing the leader always means one of only two things.

    Either someone else stands up to take his place or the rest of the pawns fall out of line lost without a leader to follow.

    Sentinel Prime is not one individual. He essentially left command of the Autobots to command the Decepticons. He could of lead both armies himself, and he had to confidence to know he could lead them. And if both armies are united under the same leader THAT is peace.

    Sentinel had faith to overthrow Megatron and lead the Decepticons himself. His lack of faith that the Autobots could defeat the Decepticons is irrelevant. If you lead both armies you have peace. If you use the opposing army to kill your former allies that is still war.

    Megatron is the leader of that army.
    To be able to stand up to Megatron himself is to stand up to the entire Decepticon army.

    Again, like Carly said in the movie, Sentinel essentially came in and replaced Megatron as the leader of that Army. All he had to do at that point to end the war was to kill Megatron and command both armies to stop killing each other and they would have listened.

    He did nothing to try to end the war, he allowed it to continue.

    Which doesn't explain anything at all. Basically what my original question was is if his objective was for peace than why does he seem to be motivated to continue the war?

    As I said above, that does happen some times but not in this case. No one stood up to defend Megatron when Sentinel was putting him in line. That means Sentinel himself was the one in charge at that moment and the Decepticon army would stand down after Megatron's death.

    Not really the point if he couldn't do that. He was confident enough that he could do that otherwise he wouldn't of told off Megatron in the first place. That's the whole point behind everything I've been saying. Sentinel stood up to Megatron and no one cared to defend their leader. So Sentinel did essentially single-handedly overwhelm the ridiculously large Decepticon Army simply by putting their leader in his place and not getting a single gun pointed at his head for doing it.

    Technically they only lost AFTER Sentinel left Cybertron. Optimus even said "Some time I wander what would have happened if you were there in the final battle instead of me."

    Again that's wrong. Killing off one entire side and enslaving an entire race is following the needs of a few not the needs of the many.

    That's exactly my point. The war would of been over without Megatron because the Decepticons had a new leader. There'd be no one to replace Megatron because Sentinel Prime already replaced him. War over, no need to kill Autobots. Kill Autobots, war not over.

    Again, if he's leading the Decepticons to kill the Autobots he's continuing the war not ending it. If he wanted peace he would of ordered them NOT to kill the Autobots.

    He was killed by Sam at Mission City. He was following orders from the Fallen in the second movie and didn't even have the guts to stand up to him. He let Sentinel Prime take over his army in the 3rd movie. He didn't even fight back until after Carly told him what a shit leader he was.

    Think about, movie Megatron has only actually been leader of the Decepticons for a grand total of 10 minutes out of 3 different 2 hour movies. The great and mighty Megatron has been reduced to taking on Starscream's role. I want to be leader but I almost never am. And Starscream, was never, killed, BY A HUMAN! How in the hell did Megatron ever get anything done when he's been so easily taken out by cold weather and a human teenager.

    Think about Prime Megatron, how he looks down on Breakdown for being overpowered by M.E.C.H. and they're team of skilled adults. You think THAT Megatron would be so easily killed like the one in the movies. Hell no.

    Animated Megatron was taken out by a bomb on his back placed there by Starscream.

    Pretty much no other Megatron would even tolerate one his soldiers being stopped by some cold weather and a puny flesh bag.

    Movie Megatron is freaking weak as hell.

    Um... of course he doesn't say Autobots, that what "implies" means. Our planet means the entire Cybertronian race, both Autobot and Decepticon.

    That doesn't mean he wanted to kill them. That means they would be killed if they stood in the way. Given that they "left Earth" as they were told to that's not "standing in the way" there fore he would not of tried to have them killed. That's what peace is, they go free, unharmed and the killing stops.

    And again, the war would be over then.

    You're not understanding my thinking at all. What I'm thinking is simple logic.

    Fighting and killing = War

    Saving lives = Peace

    What exactly do you think "to end the War and bring peace and prosperity to Cybertron" actually means? Because you certainly don't end a war with more war. War does not bring peace. Peace brings peace. Peace can only come when the killing stops. Thus if Sentinel wanted Peace that means he did not want more killing. If Sentinel wanted to kill the Autobots then he did not want peace.

    Simply put his actions had nothing to do with peace. His actions were all about being on the winning side of the war and continuing the war. He never truly believed anything he was saying otherwise he wouldn't of done what he did. Thus his motivations for what he was actually doing don't make any sense.

    No his actions were actually selfish, you're just pointing out an example of where the motivations in his dialog don't fit with his actions.

    Again, he would not need to kill anyone but Megatron as it seemed he could of lead the Decepticons in him place. That act alone would end the war without the need to waist Autobot lives.

    Part of ensuring your planet's survival is to end needless killing, not to continue along the same path as the guy you just kicked off his throne.

    No his objectives were not pure. He said they were but if the actions don't fit the words then the words are simply lies. What he said was not his real objective as his actions would not lead to that objective.

    Again, do you even know what peace means? Killing is not peace. Killing is just more war.

    You don't end war with more war, that just doesn't work. Peace will never come if the war never ends and if you're killing you're former allies the war never will end. You're simply fighting the same war from the other side. That's not peace.

    Why is this fairly simple concept so hard to understand?

    Killing a murder is a noble intention.

    Killing for the sake of killing is not noble at all.

    Killing Megatron would be a noble cause.

    Killing your fellow Autobots is just killing for the sake of killing. It does not bring peace.

    Nothing noble about what he did. The dialog does not match his actions.

    So very very wrong. You're saying that Sentinel Prime who killed his friends for no reason what so ever when he could of saved all of their lives is more noble than Darth Vader who's goal was to not only prevent people from dieing but also to bring people back from the dead. It wasn't just because of his girlfriend and technically she was still alive when he joined the dark side. Padme died in child birth AFTER she leaned that Anikin had joined the Sith.

    What??? That made no sense at all.

    Darth Vader's intentions were to end death. Not for himself but for the people he loved and for people he didn't even know. How is that selfish? It's not, trying to save lives is never selfish. That's the most selfless thing anyone could ever do. He had to murder people because he thought that was the only way to save them. If his goals were ever really accessible he would of been able to resurrect every person he killed and they'd never die again. His character actually makes some sense. There are some questionable things he's done that don't really seem to fit but when you consider the fact that he thinks he'll be able to bring the dead back to life it all makes perfect sense.

    Sentinel Prime wanted to save his home planet by needlessly killing off his friends. Not only does that not make sense, it's the most selfish thing anyone could ever do. He wanted to enslave the Earth so obviously he doesn't care about any other planet but his own. And he must not really give a crap about his "friends" or he wouldn't of tried to kill them for no reason. He didn't need to kill any of them so it was pointless to try. That's the most selfish thing anyone could ever do. He didn't really care about Cybertron, he only cared about himself and having the most powerful army under his command. That's how Megatron is.

    What he did was not means to that end, not at all, he did the exact opposite of what he claimed to want.

    It's as complicated as that.
     
  17. Transfotaku

    Transfotaku Transformer Otaku

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    SaberPrime:

    Are you confused that someone will say one thing while doing another? And will say one thing to gain support for their real goal?

    Sentinel Prime wanted a reborn Cybertron where he was the leader again.
    He used the Decepticon army to achieve that end.
    He lied to the Autobots to further his goals.

    And that's it. There's nothing complicated about it. Someone who was willing to kill the entire human race to achieve his goal is able to lie, after all. It seems much of the problem people have with the movies is that they're trying to overthink things.
     
  18. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    I get that he could of been lieing but my issue is that why did the lies continue when he was winning? I mean why lie when you don't need to. And his first lie doesn't even make sense.

    I mean if he wanted the pillars to betray the Autobots then why did he stress how much they needed to be protected from the Decepticons. His lie should of been that he was the one that needed to guard them not the humans. Or for the Autobots to take shifts guarding them and then steal them on his shift. His allowing the humans to keep them where he wasn't even informed about the vault they were stored in seems to go against his real goals. Sure he could kill the humans easily but he still wouldn't know where the pillars were being kept.

    And Optimus Prime gave him the Matrix of Leadership. He wanted to rule Cybertron for himself but REJECTED the freaking Matrix of Leadership?

    Overall he's just a jerk and a walking oxymoron. I reject what I want and don't do what I say, and I switch sides without changing my insignias.

    He's allot like a reverse Jetfire, except that Jetfire was senile in his old age and Sentinel Prime just seems to be a retarded dick.
     
  19. Overlord Balder

    Overlord Balder Voices Slugslinger!

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    The movies never showed precisely how the Protoforms work, we never actually saw ANYONE leave a planet in a Protoform, only entering like a goddamn meteor.

    If you came up with an explanation yourself, why make such a fuzz about it?

    Seeing as the Autobots were on a bad spot [on the verge of being defeated] on TF1, I think the Ship perished sometime before the events of the first movie.

    You are not making a nick of sense, mate. My point is clear: When one of the two sides perishes in a War, there is no more War [not exactly "peace", but lack of conflict is achieved, because the one side remaining is now the only side].

    Something similar to the process I just described happened in The Cold War actually: When the Soviet Union collapsed, the whole "WWIII" problem died out and the eternal indirect conflicts between Soviet Union and the United States ended, thus "peace".

    We both [and by "both", I mean you, I and Sentinel] know that the Autobots wouldn't surrender, besides, the Autobots were what? Nine individuals to twelve individuals? The 'Cons were around hundreds at that time.

    He was waging a War, that's obvious, his OBJECTIVES were peace [without Autobots, there isn't an enemy to fight and Cybertron can live in peace and prosperity].

    Because neither sides surrender.

    This wouldn't happen either, both Megatron and Optimus know that this came too far for a treaty.

    He NEVER claimed or even implied he wanted the Autobots to surrender, he wanted them destroyed for good.

    Why? Because he's the villain, damn'it.

    Again, again.

    1 - If you kill Megatron, Starscream, Soundwave, Shockwave and others would be just waiting to take his place, so Sentinel chose to simply make a deal with Megatron. Plain and simple. When he kicked the crap out of Megatron? He was making a point to him, kind of wanting some respect from him [as you can see, he never killed Megatron, now he MIGHT kill Megatron in the future, but not right now].

    2 - Sentinel Prime was not ensuing his own survival, he was ensuing Cybertron's survival

    3 - For the last time, he was a "means to an end" guy, he wanted a War to end all Wars.

    He's a traitor and a genocidal murderer, we all know that, but his objectives were clearly towards peace.

    Look, let me explain:

    War = Conflict, both sides fighting.
    Sentinel's concept of peace = With one side anihilated [and that isn't even much, around nine or twelve indvidiuals], the society will live in peace with the other side rulling supreme, all-Decepticons yes, but without 'Bots = No Warfare, no conflict of sides, and Cybertron would be able to heal from its destruction.
    To finish his masterplan, he would make sure the 'Cons wouldn't act as dictators [as he showed to Megatron].

    The main difference between Megatron and Sentinel is the following: Sentinel wanted peace and prosperity [in a long-time planning, after he kills the Autobots] for Cybertron, while Megatron mainly wanted to rule it with an iron fist.

    Perfectly aware of it.

    This is precisely why he never killed Megatron, now I speculated before he might have done that had his plots succeded but we will never know.

    Decepticons will never be at peace with the Autobots, that's the precise reason for Sentinel's betrayal, even if Sentinel WERE the leader of both sides, the 'Cons would not accept a truce [It's very likely The Autobots wouldn't either].

    Besides, he IS the villain.

    He never actually did that per say on the movie, he just put Megatron back in his place, commenting on how he [Sentinel] will never bend to Megatron's will and will not allow him to rule Cybertron with an iron fist.

    Now, as I said before, Sentinel probably had overthrowing Megatron on his plans as well, but not at the Chicago Battle time.

    I explained that earlier on the post [The Decepticon Army will never accept peace, nor will the Autobot Army].

    And yes, it's still War, but a War that will lead to peace in the future.

    200 Decepticons =/= A Weakened Megatron.

    Decepticons wouldn't accept peace, for the last time.

    He was trying to finish it, actually.

    Decepticons = Won't accept peace.
    Autobots = Won't accept it either.

    He wanted peace in a long-time planning, not in a short-time planning.

     
  20. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    Well if you go back threw the thread we were originally talking about why the Autobots can't just scan a flying vehicle mode to leave the Earth and someone said that they don't have the thruster power to exit the atmosphere so I brought up the question of how they were even able to leave Cybertron without a space ship.

    We may not of seen them leave Cybertron as protoforms but that doesn't really make a difference. We know they did because they arrived here as protoforms. If they had a ship to leave Cybertron with because they don't have the thruster power to exit the atmosphere then what happened to it?

    Basically I was saying that it's a much simpler explanation to say that Sentinel Prime needed a ship to carry cargo than to say that most Transformers don't have the thruster power to exit the atmosphere.

    One way you're left wondering why they needed a ship to leave the Earth, the other way you're left wandering what happen to the ship they left Cybertron in. So either explanation still leaves a pretty big plot hole in the story.

    What you're saying is:

    If Sentinel is an Autobot fighting Decepticons that's a war.

    If Sentinel is a Decepticon fighting Autobots that's peace.

    It's still fighting either way so how does that make any sense? You keep saying that when one of the two sides perishes in a war there is no more war as if that's the only way to end it or like that some how switching sides automatically accomplishes that but neither is the case. You still have fighting and conflict either way so the war doesn't end just because he switches sides. The war can't end if you're still fighting it. What part of that doesn't make sense?

    On Earth, we don't know how many other Autobots were still hiding out on other planets.

    Wrong, it was implied because that's what peace means. Peace isn't switch sides and keep killing people, it's switch sides to save people. Sentinel claimed to want peace and that means saving the lives of both Autobots and Decepticons by any means necessary not to simply switch sides and kill your former allies, that's an act of war not peace.

    How could of the Decepticons take Megatron's place when Sentinel already did that? They wouldn't be taking Megatron's place they would either follow orders or try to take Sentinel Prime's place.

    No he was ensuring his own survival. Killing off half the planet's population is not ensuring it's survival.

    Killing off all the Autobots is not a war to end all wars. You do realize that even if he could do that it doesn't mean that the Decepticons can't fight another civil war between their own factions. And it's not like the Decepticons haven't done that before, they're a warrior race, they live for conflict. Peace would never last with the Decepticons in charge.

    That makes no sense at all. How can his objectives be clearly towards peace when he's a genocidal murderer? That's two conflicting statements, there's nothing clear about a walking oxymoron.

    The flaws in that logic:

    War = conflict, both sides fighting which would not stop just because Sentinel is working for the other team.
    Sentinel's concept of peace = With one side annihilated for no reason (and there might be more Autobots on other planets we haven't seen), the society will continue to search out and kill more and more Autobot refugees. Even if they could wipe out all the Autobots that doesn't mean the Decepticons can't continue to fight amongst themselves or with other races. Cybertron would never be at peace and peace could never be achieved that way.

    That's not a difference at all. Sentinel Prime would be ruling with an iron fist and seems to have no real interest in peace.

    That doesn't make sense. That's precisely why he should have killed Megatron or not stood up to him like he did. Having the guts to even stand up to him and survive has the same effect as killing him with one added third effect.

    Either someone else stands up to challenge the new leader or the rest of the pawns mindless continue to follow the new leader.

    The added 3rd reaction is that anyone who is loyal to their old leader and only him will defend him but sense no one defended Megatron that narrows it back down to the first two options.

    Of course we already witnessed as all the Decepticon pawns mindlessly started following orders from Sentinel Prime so that's how we know that Megatron's death would mean nothing to them and that Sentinel could simply order them to have peace with the Autobots. War over, no need to kill anyone, peace achieved.

    That's not true. The Autobots and Decepticons have been at peace before so it can happen again. That concept was used in Beast Wars and in Energon. Beast Wars both Maximals and Predacons were at peace sense the end of the Great War between the Autobots and Decepticons. Ravage, a Decepticon/Predacon even joined the Maximals for a short time till Megatron showed him a recording of the original Megatron and switched sides. Ravage never became an Autobot or a Maximal, he simply worked with them because of the peace treaty between their races.

    In Energon, Peace had been achieved threw a truce. The Autobots and Decepticons worked together to defeat Unicron and Galvatron "died" before he could call off the truce so the Decepticons who were left were basically continuing to follow the last order they were given till Megatron was revived and started the war up again. Granted not all Decepticons were happy about this, Cyclonus for one still wanted to cause trouble but couldn't get anyone to follow him.

    Technically sense Megatron was still alive, but he might as well have. It's not like anyone was stopping him. Megatron didn't even fight back till Carly convinced him to.

    I explained this earlier in this post. The two armies will accept peace under the same leader.

    And no the war will never lead to peace in the future because kill always leads to more killing.

    Megatron is the leader so that is wrong.

    They would have to if their leader ordered it. Besides even if some of them did keep fighting it wouldn't make a difference if there were Autobots or not. Just because they're all Decepticons doesn't mean they can't find something else to fight about.

    So was Optimus but he didn't join the Decepticons.

    Decepticons = Won't accept peace Autobots or no Autobots.
    Autobots = Will accept peace.

    That's actually what separates the Autobots from the Decepticons.

    Hence my reasoning that he did not want peace. If you want peace you always plan to make the war was short as possible not to make it unnecessarily long.

    I want peace and I can get it in about 5 min. but I think I'll let the war go on for at least another 10 years first.

    It doesn't matter. If they were at all loyal to Megatron they wouldn't allow Sentinel Prime to even bad mouth him. Have you seen how defensive the original Decepticons are when Starscream so much as insults Megatron or Soundwave. He doesn't even have to attack Megatron and he gets a gun pointed at his head for simply disrespecting him. Sentinel Prime does that and gets no response from any of the Decepticons.

    You don't have to kill the leader to get a reaction out of his troops, you just have to stand up to him.

    The only difference that makes is that it makes it allot easier to kill Megatron and not simply stand up to him. And letting him live means that he could still order Sentinel Prime's death later on. Killing him up on the tower would mean that he could pin the death on someone else like oh say Starscream. Kill off both of them and oh look at that, you're praised as the new leader for killing Megatron's murderer.

    The simple fact that he stood up to Megatron and allowed him to live means he was confident enough to fight any Decepticon that would stand up for him. So technically allowing him to live is actually braver than killing him not the other way around.

    Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Point being it was Sam that pushed the AllSpark into Megatron's chest, therefore Sam who killed him. And the Autobots even mentioned how Sam was the one that Killed Megatron in Revenge of the Fallen. Skids and Mudflap even fought about it when complaining about how Megatron was resurrected.

    There's only seven and it's wrong because he said "Only I shall lead, even in death." two seconds earlier.

    Well Mike Tyson isn't a 50 foot robot and that teenager must have super powers to be able to lift and throw an atom bomb. It's not like a hand grenade or a stick of TNT. You need to launch it, not throw it. lol

    I'm not a 50 foot tall robot either. It doesn't matter what weapon he used, it matters that Sam who can't be any taller than 6 feet got close enough to a 50 foot robot to shove a cube into his chest.

    Sure if you got two evenly built people, one has a knife and the other has nothing that's not really a fair contest. But we're talking about a giant robot and a puny bag of flesh. That's more like you're average teenager with a sword stabbing a 50 foot giant in the heart. All the taller one has to do is step on him and he wins. It doesn't even matter that the smaller person had a weapon. It's like bringing a sword to a gun fight, and winning. How does 1 guy with a sword kill 10 guys with guns. Well obviously the guys with guns have horrible aim if they can't hit a guy with a sword fighting in melee range.

    That's why his motivations don't make any sense.

    And our planet means the Cybertronian race, with Cybertron rebuild, the Cybertronian race will live again and the planet [which is a dead rock on the movie-verse] will be reborn.

    That's what he meant with Cybertronian race.[/quote]

    Again, the Cybertroanian race imply both Autobot and Decepticons not just Decepticons.

    That could be a metaphor as if to say we can have peace this way if you don't fight it but if you continue to think that way the Decepticons are going to kill you. That doesn't mean he wanted to kill them, that just means he was willing to if it lead to that.

    Also if he really wanted to kill them then why didn't he kill Optimus right then and there. He also said "You're lucky I didn't kill you." which seems like he didn't really want to.

    My point was that it's the actions of a true-villain rather than the actions of a good intentions-villain. Which means he couldn't have the good intentions he claimed to have unless he was left entirely unaware that the Autobot's shuttle had been shot down. Either he wanted to give the Autobots a chance to leave peacefully and live which is what he claimed or he wanted to kill them. It can't be both.

    Your precise details make as much sense as Sentinel Prime does. I'm not refusing to understand what you're saying it simply doesn't make sense. It defies all logic and reason.

    Yes it would, I explained already in precise detail.

    Wrong. If you kick a dictator off his throne, that makes you the new dictator. A dictator is the only leader of a government so until you actually take an action to change how that government is run so that you're not the only leader then you are a dictator.

    I understand that but what I've been trying to explain when I started this topic is that what Sentinel Prime was doing was not that.

    Have you noticed that in all the examples given on your link the idea is that you're suppose to understand why extreme actions had to be taken for a good cause. This is not the case with Sentinel Prime. He claimed to have good intentions but his actions would not lead to the intentions he claimed to have there for his intentions were a lie.

    The extremist actions have to actually be able to achieve good in order to have good intentions behind them. Sentinel Prime's actions only achieve more war so there is no intentions of peace.

    Wrong. Sentinel's plan would result in several more years of war needlessly killing off his friends with the Decepticons under his command.

    Anakin's plan, had he succeded, would still have resulted in Palpatine eventually being overthrown. Plus he ended up killing Palpatine anyway without ever getting anything he wanted because his son would have died too if he didn't.

    Darth Vader actually fought to protect the people he cared for, Sentinel Prime did not.

    Watch the movies again. It started when his mother died and then he felt regret when he killed the people responsible. (The regret was directed at the women and children of the tribe who he saw as innocent of killing his mother but he killed them anyway just because he was pissed off.) He then stated that he wished no one had to die. That was all in episode 2. The whole thing with Padme didn't even enter into it till episode 3.

    Of course it wasn't shown, he never got a change to actually do it but that is what was said.

    Yes it was. Watch the movies again, specifically episodes 2 and 3.

    Again, read it, maybe you should read it till you understand what I'm talking about. Sentinel Prime is not a well intentioned extremist. He claimed to have well intentions but his claims simply became lies when his actions went against everything he claimed to be trying to do.

    Well intentioned extremists actually make sense, they're actions may be questionable but their intentions can clearly still been seen and understood in their actions.

    Here's an example for you.

    Someone kills your husband/wife, guy who did it gets out of jail on a technicality. You have 3 options.

    Legal: You move or do nothing unless he attacks again so you can legally claim self defense.

    Extremist Good intentions: Protect any surviving family you have from this guy by killing him yourself and potentially be arrested for either murder or attempted murder depending on weather or not you actually succeed in killing him.

    Sentinel Prime: Protect any surviving family you have from this guy by killing them yourself and then get arrested for mass murder. How does murdering your family protect them from being murdered? Unless you fake your deaths that doesn't make any sense just like Sentinel Prime.
     

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