[RMF-3] Semifinal #1: #2 Razorclaw vs #3 Roadbuster

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by OptimusSolo, Sep 9, 2009.

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[RMF-3] Semifinal #1: #2 Razorclaw vs #3 Roadbuster

Poll closed Sep 11, 2009.
  1. Razorclaw

    52.1%
  2. Roadbuster

    47.9%
  1. Yaujta

    Yaujta Broken. TFW2005 Supporter

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    No, I see your point, but I was just looking at it as if all ammo and ranged weaponry are exausted due to the match being so close. Once that point is reached, then the hand-to-hand combat is where the victor shall be decided.

    I believe intelligence and skill in combat are directly related. The ability to learn and understand a situation is what would matter, giving the combatant with the ability to figure out what to do beyond all practical learned skills the edge.

    As much as I'd hate to see Roadbuster eliminated, I still have to go with Razorclaw here.

    Sidenote- Too bad my avatar isn't the lion as yours is Roadbuster.
     
  2. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Hammer of the Gunplas

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    This fight could go either way, but there's no way this is "Bruticus vs. Wheelie", in fact I agree this will be as close to a true deathmatch that we've gotten so far!

    On the one hand, Razorclaw is smarter and those gas canisters clearly do SOMETHING powerful if he can outclass Roadbuster the walking arsenal's firepower stat. (even if it's by one point).

    On the other hand, however, if Roadbuster can manage to get a direct target line on an unsuspecting Razorclaw, then it's deep fried kitty for dinner...after a brutal deathfight when Razorclaw tries to then attack the walking aresenal, but starts the melee combat with damage already in place.

    I really am going to wait to vote on this one.
     
  3. Brutus

    Brutus Autobot

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    I think the firepower stat is meant to show overall weapon strength, whether it's melee or ranged. Razorclaw only has the gas capsule attack, that simply isn't as powerful as the weapons that Roadbuster carries. In melee, yes Razorclaw is where it's at, but Roadbuster owns the ranged and while Roadbuster has the speed advantage, he can stay at range, meaning that Razorclaw has no advantage in weaponry.
     
  4. Coeloptera

    Coeloptera Big, bad beetle-bot

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    Razorclaw has guns on his back in lion mode. He thus has exceptional firepower in both modes.

    I have to call foul here. You're directly contradicting the tech specs. Razorclaw has more powerful guns. It says so. The word "firepower" cannot possibly be twisted enough to make it mean "melee combat".

    - Coeloptera
     
  5. Brutus

    Brutus Autobot

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    How else could dual capsule launchers me considered more Firepower? I didn't write the back of the box.
     
  6. Cast

    Cast Roll the dice

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    Roadbuster firepower actually does seem the more efftive in this case and and ranged weapons plus speed combined with his combat training I just think he's built to take this fight, razorclaw will hurt him cos they could well end up at close range but he will have take far more damage by this point and that will be the undoing.

    Win Roadbuster
     
  7. Tacitron

    Tacitron An exceptional nut sack

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    It's always cheezed me off that Roadbuster get's stuck with a firepower of 6, especially after the Classics version that just bristles with weapons. At times the stats do seem silly. And 'capsule launchers' doesn't really sound menacing, does it? Too bad the description didn't call them 'shoulder mounted howitzers'.

    I guess it depends on how much weight you give descriptions over stats.
     
  8. Coeloptera

    Coeloptera Big, bad beetle-bot

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    High-speed projectiles filled with glass gas?

    There are lots of ways a "capsule launcher" could do some real damage. Depends on what the gas they're filled with does and how fast the capsules come out, and what they're made of.

    And we all think Roadbuster should have a higher firepower. He's just festooned with weaponry and is designated for ground assault. But even Universe Roadbuster has a 6.

    So maybe they're all sort of small so he can carry more?

    - Coeloptera
     
  9. Brutus

    Brutus Autobot

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    That's possible, but based on what we're reading, I really do think the Firepower statistic is based on their weaponry, whether it's melee or ranged, and for a fighter like Razorclaw who's slower and is clearly based on a melee fighting archetype, Roadbuster has a clear advantage with more speed to keep the distance and who's firepower is all ranged.

    Also, seriously, what kind of gas can hurt something that doesn't breath? In my scenario, I feel like I was over-generous in at least making the gas capsules a distraction at least. But, how can Razorclaw close distance on a self-targeting, 360 degree shoulder mounted weapon? He can't, Roadbuster has his ass covered.

    Now, my round by round scenario would be significantly different if Roadbuster had less strength, even a 6, but they're both 8, which means that even in a close up fight, Roadbuster can hold his own long enough to use any one of his multitude of weapons to stun and separate himself from Razorclaw.
     
  10. Coeloptera

    Coeloptera Big, bad beetle-bot

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    Corrosives. Or something to alter the properties of what it strikes.

    - Coeloptera
     
  11. Brutus

    Brutus Autobot

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    That would have to be a chemical.
     
  12. Coeloptera

    Coeloptera Big, bad beetle-bot

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    I'm gonna have to go back to "glass gas".

    I'm not happy Roadbuster looks to be losing (even though I voted against him) but I think we're sort of obliged to give sci-fi, space opera tech a bit of a hand-wave.

    - Coeloptera
     
  13. kryptofred

    kryptofred super-con

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    I'm going with Roadbuster here. While I've got a few problems with Brutus' senerio I defenitly agree with his overall assesment that Roadbusters ranged attacks are gonna carry the day.
     
  14. E. C. R. Former

    E. C. R. Former Is probably insane...

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    Dude, seriously. Sometimes you should really look up this stuff before jumping to conclusions. Glass gas is a fully established ranged weapon in TFdom.

    Furthermore, there is absolutely NO WAY that 'Firepower' would mean 'melee combat'. A TFs' melee combat abilities are determined by their STRENGTH, SPEED, and SKILL tech specs. FIREPOWER is strictly for ranged weaponry.

    Your scenario is undeniably a compelling argument for Roadbuster. That, said, it relies a little too much on outside factors and certain scenarios. E.g. your scenario about Razorclaw's joints locking up because he waited too long. Far more likely that Roadbuster would enter Razorclaw's range before that happened. Also, you seem to be convinced that this would strictly be a ranged fight when if my scenario were to come through, it would strictly be a melee fight where Razorclaw would have the edge. Also, there is no way on this God given Earth that INTELLIGENCE would not be a factor in any fight (unless both combatants had intelligence specs lower than 3).

    And yes, Chemical weaponry does count as firepower. Prowl, Cliffjumper, Kup, and Mixmaster all use chemical based ranged weapons.
     
  15. jamz

    jamz Repaint! Repaint! Repaint TFW2005 Supporter

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    Roadbuster

    Roadbuster should have been Prime's second in command. When I was a kid I always imagined that Roadbuster was the leader before Optimus took over.

    Razorclaw has to get in pretty close to do much damage and if they are roughly equal in speed Roadbuster could evade him. In a protracted fight I might take razorclaw but i think it will be over quickly and Roadbuster is simply a more skilled and experienced fighter.
     
  16. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    This IS a close one... but I am leaning towards Razorclaw, for a few reasons...

    Here comes another EPIC SMOG POST!!!!!!!! :lol 

    ------------------------------------
    INTELLIGENCE

    Some people suggest Intelligence is irrelevant to these bouts... not so. I believe a TF Intelligence score is applied to their own areas of expertise. Razorclaw is not a scientist or an engineer... he's a warrior, a hunter, and a small squad commander. In these areas, with a score of 9, he must be considered a virtual genius.

    Intelligence is not always a measure of what you know, but also a reasoning ability that allows you to avoid making mistakes. Roadbuster is not dumb, but Razorclaw is a really smart cookie. If it comes down to a game of tactical chess (and it will), Razorclaw will dominate the field.

    This is not just the numbers talking, but also how their personalities are described. Razorclaw is consummately efficient and endlessly patient. He's just not going to be error-prone. He knows that the terrain will favour him and how to bide his time. He also seems to be very inwardly focused, rather than a real team leader... probably better at one-on-one tactics than open battlefields.

    Roadbuster's personality, by contrast, undermines his intelligence. He has a noted problem with patience. He's battle-hungry, he bores easily, and acts rashly without thinking things through. He can also wear down his weapons through overuse, which to me sounds like a guy who likes to shoot first, shoot A LOT, and ask questions later. This is not a careful fighter.

    As for tactics, much is made of his charismatic battlefield presence. He's the guy who boldly leads a force to victory... with his decent intelligence, he's probably pretty good at throwing together a battle plan for a small army. All by himself though, he may not fare as well. ADVANTAGE : RAZORCLAW

    --------------------------------------
    SPEED and TERRAIN

    Both fighters can handle rough terrain, but the mountain forest provides a lot of dense cover and rocky obstructions... and this is again Razorclaw's game.

    On a flat straightaway, I have no doubt that Roadbuster's truck mode is faster (at least by ONE point) but in the trees and uneven terrain, his speed will be reduced to 65mph or even less. Razorclaw's top running speed is 90mph, and his more flexible quadrupedal form is going to navigate this ground much more easily.

    Additionally, with his noted climbing ability, Razorclaw will be able to scale even vertical grades easily, increasing his tactical options still further... to say nothing of his prodigious leaping!

    In robot mode, RB might have an easier time getting around, but on foot there is no way he'll be able to match Razorclaw's lion mode mobility. In this sense, RB's small speed advantage won't even be an advantage at all, I'm afraid.ADVANTAGE: RAZORCLAW

    --------------------------
    FIREPOWER

    I agree that Roadbuster seems like he should have better Firepower. Most likely, it's just an oversight in the Tech Specs, but one possible explanation is that his various weapons are actually relatively "small-caliber"... and that he makes up for his lighter weapons with sheer volume.

    However, taken at face value, this means that Razorclaw's launchers are still more powerful than any of Roadbuster's guns... but he is limited to 1 major weapon (despite the fact that the guns on his shoulders are ignored by the Tech Specs). This makes him a little less versatile, but still quite dangerous. Explosive cannisters that release a volatile gas? That's basically a double-barreled cannon that fires explosive shells that also release napalm on contact! Not exactly a subtle weapon, but it WILL get the job done.

    Roadbuster has more variety, but less power. He also tends to abuse his guns through overuse... which will hurt his ammo and make his guns more prone to malfunction. ADVANTAGE: RAZORCLAW


    -------------------------------------------------
    ENDURANCE

    While superficially, they seem to have the same phenomenal Endurance score, I think this might be a place where Roadbuster could have a small edge.

    In an earlier bout Omnus reasoned that with his high Endurance, Razorclaw must be extraordinarily resistant to damage. While I'm sure that he's still pretty tough, his Endurance may also factor his careful efficiency. Razorclaw wastes no energy, no movement. Everything in measures. This would give him extraordinary long-term endurance, but in the short term Razorclaw's measured conservation might be less of a factor than pure armour plating.

    With Roadbuster, I figure that 9 Endurance is a testament to his overall ruggedness and resistance to damage. In that sense, Roadbuster's armour advantage and Razorclaw's firepower advantage might just cancel each other out, making for an even tighter match. ADVANTAGE: ROADBUSTER (barely)

    --------------------------------------
    SKILL

    Here we are... both of them are pretty good. At a guess, I'd say Roadbuster is probably a bit better with guns, while Razorclaw is a bit better in melee combat...

    And this is the crux of the battle... Razorclaw is smart enough to know that his best strategy is to take Roadbuster out at close quarters. They can trade fire, but ultimately this will not advance Razorclaw's battle plan much. He would consider it wasteful. Thankfully the uneven, obscuring landscape will give him the edge he needs to bring the battle to Roadbuster.

    Striking from overlooking crags, or from a screen of dense tree cover, and moving with greater ease over the terrain that he lured the more impulsive Roadbuster into, he'll be able to move in and get to work with his Sonic Sword, his jaws, and the shredding claws for which he is named. At close proximity, against an opponent as physically powerful as Razorclaw, Roadbuster will fight hard, but eventually succumb.

    A very close battle overall... but with careful, patient planning and adept use of terrain, RAZORCLAW seems like the clear victor.

    You raise some interesting points, but it really seems like a list of "what Roadbuster is going to do to Razorclaw" rather than a fair assessment of both fighters' capabilities.

    I agree that Razorclaw will play it cool initially, but it's absurd to assume that one of the smartest competitors in this tournament will fall prey to such a known issue. I think he'll be careful enough to stretch his joints before leaping into combat... against a reckless foe like Roadbuster, he won't have to wait very long anyway. :) 

    Illogical. That would be sort of stupid and reckless... two things that Razorclaw is clearly not. Razorclaw despises waste in any form. Why would he spend valuable time charging Roadbuster with his sword, giving his opponent time to take a clear shot at him, when it would be faster and easier simply to SHOOT Roadbuster point blank, then follow up the blast with a sword attack?

    Razorclaw isn't going to make a frivolous attack unless he feels it's a sure thing. And with his explosive leaping ability, when RC does lunge, Roadbuster probably won't be ready for it.

    I like this... the self-targeting launcher could be a good way to combat Razorclaw's careful ambush/flanking tactics. However, I don't think the concussion capsule blaster is something that one simply "evades". Bear in mind this is still a powerful damage-dealing weapon, moreso than even Roadbuster's weapons.

    Razorclaw picks nose while receiving damage. He then thanks Roadbuster for the opportunity to get his ass kicked by such an excellent foe. Then he throws himself on his sword to make it even easier for Roadbuster. :rolleyes2 

    How exactly is Roadbuster faster on foot, while retreating and returning fire? I'm not sure how you arrive at this. Also, "laser-targeted" doesn't mean "automatically hitting". ;) 

    Also, if you re-read the wording of Roadbuster's bio, and take a look at his toy instruction manual, you'll realize it's his grenades/canisters that are available to him in both modes. His laser-guided cannon is actually only used in his vehicle mode.

    As I explained, the Speed factor is virtually moot in this case... the marginal speed advantage Roadbuster has in vehicle mode is offset by the interference of the uneven, forested terrain. Also, the ample cover somewhat reduces the effectiveness of his weapons over any kind of range.

    However, worst of all, the suggestion that Razorclaw's Firepower 7 weapon "may not even be harmful" to TFs is nothing short of preposterous!! I mean, come ON!! :lol 

    Untrue. His rifle is hand-operated. His laser-guided cannon is operated in truck mode only. His cannisters likely must be thrown like grenades, or deployed like depth charges in vehicle mode (presumably).

    An amusing analogy, but not even remotely accurate.

    Uh... I think this is quite incorrect. In some situations Intelligence and Terrain don't have a big impact. Sometimes personalities would lead fighters to fight the same way regardless of intelligence (Brawl vs Motormaster for example). Sometimes the terrain suits both fighters equally, or is so neutral that it's a non-issue.

    But in this case, due to their drastically different personalities, I think Intelligence is a very important tool, as is the terrain and how it allows Razorclaw to compensate for Roadbuster's capabilities.

    Ahem... reading the bios, I think this is completely backwards. Razorclaw is a gun and sword toting robot warrior, not a lion. At no point does it say he "fights like a lion". He has the physical form to fight like a lion, but his mentality and minimalist tactics better resemble an Iaijutsu master. Likewise Roadbuster is not a SpecOps soldier, he's a battlefield commander. He is a loud, dynamic, two-fisted leader... he's the guy who inspires the troops to storm the hill. He hasn't got the subtlety or discretion to be a SpecOps commando. :) 

    I see where you're going with this... firepower as the sum total of all the weapons in the character's arsenal. I'm not sure if I accept this interpretation across the board, but considering that Roadbuster carries so many guns, and still only has a 6 rating, while Razorclaw has only two weapons (and only one GUN), but still rates a 7, suggests that each of Razorclaw's weapons is considerably more powerful than anything Roadbuster carries. Your logic sort of works against you there. :peoples: 

    zmog
     
  17. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    Debatable, but plausible. Still, I would think melee weapons would be based on the wielder's Strength, plus any additional effects the weapon possesses.

    Uh... and?

    "Volatile gas". Is your only understanding of the word "gas" in relation to poisonous respiratory agents? Because that's sort of limited. Lots of TFs use gaseous-form weapons that produce a variety of damaging effects. In this case "volatile" usually would imply "highly combustible/flammable", which is why I compared it to Napalm. You keep trying to insist that Razorclaw is a melee only kind of guy, while ignoring the fact that he has 7 Firepower, and carries a HUGE gun! :p 

    And again "self-targeting" doesn't mean "always hitting". It's not magic. :) 

    I agree that in close quarters, Roadbuster is still a tough nut to crack. But with the relative parity between their physical stats, and Razorclaw's clear melee-weapon edge, I think RB will definitely be at a disadvantage.

    Just to name a few! Thanks ECR. :) 

    Just out of curiosity, is this because you owned Roadbuster before you owned an Optimus? :) 

    Roadbuster is a good battlefield leader, but he's unfit for command due to his brash impatience.

    Except for that big GUN that Razorclaw carries. And the thick forest they're fighting in. And the fact that, despite being close in "vehicle speed", Roadbuster is probably more impeded by the terrain.

    Why is that? They both have the same Skill AND Rank... and Razorclaw is markedly more intelligent, and possesses a much calmer attitude. If anything, this points to Razorclaw being the better, more experienced fighter...

    zmog
     
  18. omegagoalie

    omegagoalie Cybertronian Puckstopper

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    Wow what a close one! Thanks SMOG, now my eyes are bleeding ( insert bloody eyes smiley ) though in fairness you did give clear warning. I still walked in fully aware of the consequences. Much like all the times I visited Canadia :D 

    I'm just about sold on Razorclaw. His patience and intelligence vs. Roadbusters "kill it!! kill it now!!" budda-budda-budda-KABLAMMO!!!! seem to be his key to victory in this round.

    And no, Roadbuster should NOT have been Prime's #2 guy. He was left out of G1 for a reason :p 
     
  19. Treadshot A1

    Treadshot A1 Or just 'A1' for short...

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    3 (not so serious at all) reasons why Razorclaw wins:

    1) He facing Roadbuster. ROAD-buster. In a forest... :lol 

    2) I hate Razorclaw for defeating an Insecticon, but one insecticon's better than wiping out two Stunticons. ****ing Roadbuster.

    3) Razorclaw. Nuff' said.
     
  20. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    The trick is remembering to blink. :thumbs2: 

    Glad to see Razorclaw take it. Means I didn't write all that for nuthin' :D 

    zmog
     

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