Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by OptimusSolo, Feb 17, 2009.
Hey what can you do.
I think I'm tired of this debate anyway
Dinobots ...nuff said
snarl....dinobots all the way
Haha! I'm back!
That's somewhat irrelevant, since his original profile is only really applicable to the Earth context. Snarl's origins vary considerably based on the variations in the canon. In both the cartoon and the US Marvel, the Dinobots were optimized for Earth conditions. Possibly his solar charge plating was even something added for the Earth environment?
OR as a "Desert Warrior" he was always specialized for "sunny" conditions on any planet... or even in space, where solar radiation doesn't even have to penetrate the veil of atmospheric conditions. Remember, solar collectors are especially useful in space, where factors like "night" or "weather" have no real impact.
Or 9 is simply the best approximation of his average working strength, which can vary according to conditions.
Actually, there is no reason to believe that this is true. Tech Spec stats have always suggested a degree of interpretation. Some characters have stats that are rather obviously based on the presence of a special ability.
Operating with a moderate solar boost would be "normal" for a "Desert Warrior" like Snarl. The only time he would be without it would be at night. IE: A token solar charge amping his strength is "normal" for Snarl. It's "always on". Megatron's anti-matter link is not normal. It's a "once per day" kind of thing that leaves him weak if he uses it.
Nothing says that all "special abilities" need be treated the same way, but as I mentioned when this point was first brought up, a Firepower of 10 very well could include the antimatter link... if it's anything like Strength, 10 could simply indicate "off the chart". I would tend to interpret it differently though, but it's obviously vague enough to allow for this much discussion on the matter.
Well, no... Budiansky's FULL profiles that the Tech Specs were condensed from are the only source for absolute canon. The Tech Specs are only the shorthand version. I believe "extremely vulnerable" at the very least makes it quite clear what the author's original intent was.
The very act of approaching and wreathing Snarl in a haze of smoke would blind him and make getting a clean shot very difficult, if not impossible... even assuming that the sensor noise missiles weren't already being used, and that Snarl even happened to be in robot mode at that moment. Smokescreen is fast and very skillful. Snarl is lumbering and slow. It's always possible that he could get in a lucky shot... but considering the traits of both characters, the odds would be in Smokescreen's favour.
Exactly why I've always pointed out that he's such an easy target, and unlikely to close the distance gap. Even if he's thirsty for battle, he's not very mobile, and has a rather stubborn personality. Blinded, he would probably lash out for lack of any other means to attack... OR maybe he would just sit there, waiting for his chance. Neither behavior will really change the outcome.
Let's also remember that blinding, weakening and disorienting Snarl are all just options for Smokescreen... not necessities in this battle. I'm sure a smart cookie like him would be well aware of what strategies would suit the situation best. Keeping his distance, and repeatedly frying Snarl's circuits might even be the simplest and ultimately most effective strategy. There's no reason really to even bother neutralizing Snarl's strength if he's not planning on getting hit.
Errrr...? What? YES, the profile is rather clear in suggesting the smoke blinds oppoents. That's what it DOES. I mean, c'mon... get serious here.
And YES, he would be able to use his smoke... most certainly. It's a bit ridiculous to arbitrarily decree that he couldn't use it due to range. Again, with someone as fast and clever as Smokescreen, he wouldn't even have to get close... take note of the wind direction, lay down some smoke cover, and let the wind and the smoke's magnetic qualities do the rest.
And as for Smokescreen's missiles, if Snarl can't see through the smoke, and his supplementary senses (radio transmission, electric and magnetic sensitivity) are being bombarded with false signals, what makes you think he would have any chance of landing a hit? Luck? God? Blind faith?
Okay, now you're just getting ridiculous. For one thing, armour is designed for a number of purposes, and is sometimes designed based on limitations of resource, time, tech, whatever... some armours are very effective against some types of attack, but weak against others. Such is the very nature of armour and always has been.
Your presumption is akin to reasoning a tank's electrical systems would be automatically proof against EMP attacks because it's designed to repel rocket fire. It just doesn't work that way.
Snarl is a heavy armour bot. He is not an electronic warfare bot. He's designed to shrug off artillery... his profile is VERY EXPLICIT about this point. Now you're trying to shoe-horn specialized electromagnetic shielding into this? Your ability to read between the lines is nothing short of jaw-dropping. I'm not sure if I can take your arguments seriously anymore, since they seem to be based more on a need to be "right" than the strictures of common sense, logic, or simple likelihood.
LOL! Based on what? There is no reason to assume that he'd be magically shielded from specialized electrical synapse disruption attacks in one mode and not the other. The notion that Dinobots have more armour in Dinosaur mode is already a contentious detail, but in this case I'm sure it makes no difference, especially if the disruption web is an area-based attack, and not something that needs to be focused on any particular body part.
See, this is where the taser analogy breaks down... a taser depends on the dart that makes contact with actual skin, or a conductive material, so the jolt can be carried into the body. Padded armour would stop the dart from penetrating... but armour that is part of a robot's physiology, particularly metallic armour, would offer no such protection. This would be especially so in the case of a weapon that doesn't use a directed implement to deliver the charge, but instead induces a field of disruption. Jumping into a vat of water with a high tension cable in it is going to fry you no matter how much armour you're wearing.
Also, there is one more distinction to make... Smokescreen's gun isn't simply a taser. It doesn't just deliver an electric shock... this would make it no different than Bluestreak or Brawl's lightning guns, which use an electrical bolt to deal physical heat damage. Instead it is specialized to disrupt electrical systems and short out opponents. In theory, this makes it similar, if not identical, to Blaster's Electro Scrambler rifle, which is also rated at 7 Firepower.
Yeah, I've mentioned this several times, but nobody actually listens.
This is a fair point... I don't think Smokescreen could DESTROY Snarl permanently. He lacks the raw destructive capability. But DEFEAT him in a skirmish? Win by TKO? Yes, easily.
Hypothetically, if he managed to really put Snarl out hard with the disruptor, he might be able to stomp Snarl's head repeatedly/furiously enough to kill/critically damage him before Snarl recovered enough to fight back. Maybe.
But that's kind of a harsh, desperate kind of image isn't it?
It can be. In this case, I'd say it wouldn't be.
Another observation I'd make, regardless of how it affects the fight, is that when it says Snarl's Endurances increases, I believe that probably refers more to his ability to continue operating indefinitely under sunny conditions, without exhausting his fuel supply or getting tired. Basically, Snarl could possibly go for years in a desert without refueling. His solar power probably has no effect on his ability to absorb pure physical punishment and damage, though admittedly, Snarl is already pretty resilient that way too.
Cool...who was your trip??
I dont agree because OS never really set the back ground for the fight.
I can agree with that.
I didnt think of that.
Thats possible too...but it would set a different standard for Snarl that wouldnt apply to other characters.
The way I see it if 9 is one characters normal level with out enhasments gained by outside means then it should be the same for every character.
And if that wasnt clear....if Meg's,Cyclonus, and others [with hight power levels] that can draw power from an outside source [black holes, Unicron] and those extra powers are considered a boaster to their regular power levels then it should be the same for Snarl.
I'm not saying its a fact....what I'm saying is what goes for one character should go for all.
Would you mind pointing some out???
I'm not sure I agree....but I cant debate it.
But I'll say this....there isint much reason to believe he had the solar collectors before getting his "Dino" mode and yet he was still considered a powerhouse.
To me thats an indication that he's normal power level is 9 and that the sunlight increases that number.
Thats true but I dont see the value of having a different set of rules and guide lines for a few different characters.
Well I thought you were arguing only from the stand point of the tech specs themselfs.
So I responded in kind.
I did find "extremely vulnerable" in the Marvel Universe Bios which I believe were written by Budiansky.
And I now must agree that it seems to indicate the lack of an efficient energy storing system.....I just dont think its that clear.
The thing is the smoke emits from his tail pipe.So Smokescreen wont be approaching from within a "haze of smoke" he'll be in front of it.
And unlike the silly nature of the G1 cartoon, where no one could make a good shot, I would expect almost any TF to be able to hit a car coming twards them.
As I've stated I dont believe the "frying" is possible as long as Snarl remains in dino mode.
Outside of the way smoke can obscure sight to us I dont see any indication of causeing "blindness".
And as I said.....he would still have to drive around Snarl at a pretty close range.....and I cant believe that Snarl would be that bad a shot that he couldnt hit Smokescreen once before he makes a full pass.
He would be able to land a hit before the "smoke" envelops him.Smokescreen wouldnt have the ability to make half a pass around Snarl with out getting hit at least once.
I think its ridiculous to assume that the armor would only be designed to repel artillery.
I dont see resourse being much of a problem in designing it to repel disputer fire and time isint much of an issue for TF's.
And I'm not suggesting it would take every hit but I dont see a single logical reason to assume it wouldnt have been designed to take a few.
There are Decepticons with similar weapons and it would have been stupid not to design it to be able to handle that kind of an attack.....at least to some degree.
No my presumption is that they would have designed his armor to withstand some hits from weapon fire that he would most likely encounter.
I'm not trying to shoe-horn anything.
The debate is about our opinion.
And the Dinobots were designed to be on the front lines of the war effort.
Where is the logic in designing an armor and not insulating it againest an attack that is about 90% likely he would encounter on the front lines????
Its my opinion that they would have added the insulation to the design.
And as I've told you before your baseing your statements on bad judgements about my reasoning.
Its not about a need to be right.....opinions are personal views and cant be wrong or right.
And its just my opinion that it wouldnt be logical to design the armor with out some insulation to disruptor attack sine it is an attack he would most likely encounter very often.
And BTW you can spare me the "not all opinions are equal" speech.
Most of the armor plating is on the outer skin of his dino mode.
At least thats how I always understood it and it is how it was dipicted.
The only times I ever saw anything bounce off of Snarl he was in Dino mode and it was said that the Dinobots were vulnerable in robot mode.
If the armor is insulated, which I believe it is, then it would make a difference if he's in his dino mode.
And if theres a layer of the insulation between the outer shell and his circuits it would protect him to some degree.
And as I said his endurance does increase.
Yes it is.
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