Q for people who only buy official products

Discussion in 'Transformers Toy Discussion' started by batfan007, Sep 1, 2016.

  1. batfan007

    batfan007 Double the Dragon

    Joined:
    May 19, 2016
    Posts:
    3,530
    News Credits:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    212
    Location:
    Magical Land of OZ
    Likes:
    +3,658
    Hi, I'd like some specific answers on why anyone who only buys official product and considers 3P and any unofficial stuff to be no good, undesirable for whatever reason, and I've seen comments like 3P is "IP theft" so for anyone that has that view please explain WHY you hold that view.

    Reason: I am writing an article for my Transformers blog on 3P toy trends, and want some genuine views / counterpoint from people who don't like them or don't buy them for any reason whatsoever.

    I may quote you if you can string together a sentence of two, but not without permission, if I do, I will PM you first and ask permission, and you can have your user name to quote, or just credited as "anonymous" if you prefer.



    MODS NOTE: PLEASE DON'T MOVE THIS TO 3P THREAD WHERE IT WILL NOT GET ANSWERS FROM PEOPLE WHO DON'T BUY 3P, THE VERY PEOPLE I AM WANTING ANSWERS FROM

    Please also note this question is asking about any/all products, so goes in GENERAL thank you.
     
  2. Jalaguy

    Jalaguy Crusadercon

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2010
    Posts:
    4,106
    News Credits:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Location:
    UK
    Likes:
    +1,595
    Twitter:
    Tumblr:
    I don't buy 3P stuff because:

    - It's super-expensive
    - It frequently looks very ugly and over-designed to me
    - I value simple, fun transformations, and those aren't exactly common for 3P figures

    I'm not keen on the IP theft aspect - and it is IP theft, they're profiting off of another company's characters - but if I'm honest, it probably wouldn't stop me getting a 3P figure if by some miracle there was one that appealed to me and was a sensible price.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. SouthtownKid

    SouthtownKid Headmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2011
    Posts:
    20,980
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    322
    Likes:
    +4,884
    Why does someone have to explain why they think IP theft is IP theft?

    I've bought 3P, I enjoy 3P... Infinitor is probably my favorite figure of last couple years -- official OR unofficial -- and Code is easily my favorite figure of the year before that... but I do not get the dishonesty behind people trying to convince themselves and others that it somehow isn't what it obviously is. It's textbook IP theft. Either you can live with that or you can't, but please, everybody, let's stop the lying about it.
     
  4. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Posts:
    25,214
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    372
    Likes:
    +2,736
    I mean, what's to explain, OP? There are designs, characters, and toys that have been created (or at least licensed) by one company at some point over the last 30 or so years. Another company has come along and made a product that deliberately leans on those designs to appeal to it's target audience in order to profit, despite no relationship with or permission from the original creators or current owners of those designs or characters. Some 3rd party companies also create toys based off original ideas, but these are in the extreme minority.

    Some people view such an arrangement as exploitative and to the detriment of the companies that have built and maintained the Transformers brand over the last 30 years, and refuse to enrich the 3rd party companies pursuing such an approach as a result. Others are turned off by the high cost, limited availability, fragility/quality control issues or aesthetics of the 3rd party figures.

    Like, not endorsing or opposing any opinions, but it doesn't really strike me as rocket science to grasp the ideas here, OP.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
  5. Murasame

    Murasame CHIMICHANGAS

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2008
    Posts:
    20,059
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    337
    Location:
    The Lost Light
    Likes:
    +4,485
    1. Too expensive (at this point even the original Hasbro/Takara toys are too expensive, but at least still afordable)
    2. The look mostly is not right, they don't fit the aesthetics of the original figures or are just ugly, they just don't appeal to me
    3. Mostly too complicated
    4. Mostly MP stuff
    5. the IP theft thing. I can relate. I once spent a whole day texting someone to remove an image from his YouTube video and threatened with legal action, as he stole my logo, exclaiming he found it on Google and he did not feel he did anything wrong. It's not nice if someone else profits of your own work. Add-ons are OK, but creating your own figures of someone elses IP without authorization is arrant. Being inspired by someone else's idea is one thing, but we all know who these toys are supposed to be.
     
  6. GuardianPrime19

    GuardianPrime19 Prime

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2015
    Posts:
    807
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    172
    Likes:
    +692
    It's mostly too expensive
     
  7. Ryan F

    Ryan F Transform and Roll Out! TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2009
    Posts:
    1,428
    News Credits:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    227
    Likes:
    +1,362
    The IP theft is the main issue, but there are many others.

    A lot of these 3P companies seem to operate in a murky, shady world, unregulated, answerable to no-one and largely faceless. Whilst there are some excellent 3P toys out there and some of the companies do have great customer service (Make Toys, Fans Toys, MMC and GigaPower all have good reputations), there's a lot of ***ed-up stuff that goes on.

    * A company once released a figure with a dodgy, badly-designed head, only for another company to quickly and conveniently come along and sell a replacement... almost as if it was planned from the start that you had to buy the main figure AND the new head.

    * Reports that a 3P Sunstreaker was deliberately manufactured as a poor-quality POS because the same factory had another Sunstreaker in the pipeline and they wanted to sabotage the opposition.

    * Companies releasing sub-standard 'first-editions' of figures, only to then release a better version down the line with improved QC, meaning that early pre-order customers get the shaft while latecomers are rewarded.

    These are just three examples, but if you browse the 3P threads (and the UK toy discussion thread, where several UK TF shops/dealers like to let off steam), you'll find the 3P world to be murky as all hell.

    Oh, and there's a reason why all the figures have age limits on the box of 14+... it's likely that many use toxic lead-based paints and bypass safety regulations. Okay, so they're marketed as adult collectables, but let's just say, don't leave your kids alone with one.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Sol Fury

    Sol Fury The British Butcher Administrator News Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Posts:
    36,098
    News Credits:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    412
    Likes:
    +1,016
    Facebook:
    Instagram:
    Moved to toy discussion, since this is about products not "general" universe / lore discussion, which is what TFGD is for.

    I am reserving the right to close this if things disintegrate into a flamewar over IP which is what nearly always happens when someone raises this question.
     
  9. NotRamjet97

    NotRamjet97 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Posts:
    10,130
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    277
    Likes:
    +2,447
    Price

    IP theft. I remember a counteratgument being "But Hasbro steals IPs from vehicle manufacturers"... But Third parties will do THAT as well (saw this Not-Wildrider that looked exactly like a Ferrari 599).

    With that said, I'm not opposed to upgrades like the hand and feet for Combiners.
     
  10. poisoncow

    poisoncow ....

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2009
    Posts:
    1,524
    Trophy Points:
    197
    Likes:
    +2,049
    No toy is perfect. If a 3rd party makes an aesthetic choice I don't like or is different for a character I write it off as "it's fake". If Has/Tak does something I don't like I can say "they're changing something about the character that they created and it's officiallly signed off on". That's about it, I'll never be able to shake the "it's fake" perception.

    There's a lot of great 3rd party stuff but it's not actual a transformer to me. It's just a transforming robot that does a great job mimicking TF's
     
  11. WishfulThinking

    WishfulThinking "Don't touch it! It's evil!"

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2014
    Posts:
    8,945
    News Credits:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    262
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Likes:
    +4,931
    I own a handful of 3rd party toys. The IP theft thing does bother me some. And while I understand that Hasbro, until more recently, has been part of the problem in not addressing collector's wants and needs, it's still theft.

    That said, I think the main exception is third party accessories. Bring it on! Why? Because these necessitate the purchase of the official product (so Hasbro is not out any money) and they enhance the official product. Better hands and feet for Combiner Wars? Yes! Even the product that got it all started, City Commander, gets a pass for me since it was never in Hasbro's plans to make armor for their white Classics Prime named Ultra Magnus.

    However, the shades of gray turn darker when you have full-on figures that obviously evoke a character owned by Hasbro. I own Terminus Hexatron and Citizen Stack...but I did so at a time when I thought Hasbro wouldn't give us a proper CHUG UM and Sixshot. Moments of weakness on my part...but again, coming from a time when Hasbro was slowly warming up to addressing collector concerns.
     
  12. primalxconvoy

    primalxconvoy グーグル 翻訳は素晴らしいです!

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2015
    Posts:
    5,233
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    247
    Location:
    Japan
    Likes:
    +3,447
    I do buy some 3P stuff, but not much. Here's why:

    - The base price is too expensive (around 100 dollars per figure is nuts).
    -The QC is not great (two KFC cassettes and a Toyworld Brainwave snapped while simply transforming them, plus I've had Battle Rolar come with unpainted legs, and the handles for PE Rumble and Frenzy didn't work, so Soundwave couldn't hold them in weapon mode).
    - Sometimes it's difficult to get a refund.
    - Expensive to order online (in Japan, everything needs to be imported from any of the ships online, whereas Japanese online shops cost about the same as importing it).
    - Needlessly complicated transformations, seemingly for either the hell of it, it due to poor design (it should be utilitarian, and only complicated if it has to be).
    - I have a feeling that official versions will soon replace them (e.g., Masterpiece).
    - Not authentically G1 enough and/or having features that should be included in such an expensive figure (e.g., Xovergen "Powermaster" armour having no postmaster
    Powermaster figure, some silly Galvatron having no wrist swivel while having "muscle builder arms").
    - a saturated market (too many versions of the same character at the same time)
    - not enough variety (where are the Powermaster, Pretender, etc figures?)
    - add on kits taking too long to come out, and thus becoming redundant. Obsolete by the time they do.
    - official versions better than 3P, such as Generations Springer PISSING over FP's version.

    Please excuse swypos, as I've typed this from my phone.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Yaujta

    Yaujta Breadchildren. TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Posts:
    20,552
    News Credits:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    392
    Location:
    South Central PA
    Likes:
    +15,902
    Where to begin...
    1. IP theft. Yes, HasTak uses car and vehicle likenesses, but they aren't selling cars. If they did, it would be different. What these other companies are doing is blatantly and unapologetically stealing someone else's ideas and designs to sell figures that fit in the same market as the official figures. Because of this shady practice, I refuse to support them.
    2. A name. I know we can all name a figure whatever we want, as the name isn't tattooed on its face. What's different here, for me, is that I want a figure in my collection that IS who it represents without me having to say "This is supposed to be..." and needing faction symbols added to it just to make it more convincing.
    3. Name brand. HasTak makes Transformers. If it doesn't come in a package that says Transformers, then it isn't a Transformer. Kind of simple, really.
    Note: if HasTak sold the brand to another company and that company made Transformers, then they would be official Transformers. Name brand loyalty is where I stand, not company loyalty. I enjoy Transformers, not HasTak.
    4. Appearance and price. These points are subjective, as everyone has their own likes and dislikes, as well as budgets. Personally, I have seen very few 3P figures that appeal to me whatsoever. None capture the look of a character as well as an officially licensed figure does, and it's because they can't due to legal reasons. I don't want a figure that only slightly resembles a character.
    As for price, I know there are many excuses about overhead and limited runs, but I've yet to see a figure worth the asking price. If they were on par with official figures on this front, which a few of the not-MP's are, then some of the pricing complaints may subside. But for the most part, $40+ for a deluxe sized figure is asinine.
    5. Collection time bomb. Not once have I ever needed to fill a gap in my collection so bad that I couldn't be patient and wait to see if an official figure would be made. Not once. My collection hasn't disintegrated without a fill in for MP Sunstreaker or the Dinobots, and it won't either. If they eventually come out officially, then that'd be awesome. If not, the collection will still be here.

    Admittedly, I do own three 3P figures. Not because I could've without them, but because I got them for great prices and was curious.
    -IF Maiden- great little figure, and I'm a sucker for the size class. I got it for $10.
    -Quakeblast. Got it for a lot less than the initial release price (about $40), just to tide me over until MP-29 showed up. Now that the real deal is in the house, the imposter is back in the box.
    -Oversized KO Feral Rex. It's a knock off of a 3P set. The irony, and price, was too good for me to pass up. It's not bad, but currently languishing in my sales thread.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Starscream 91

    Starscream 91 Mech With A Mouth

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2015
    Posts:
    9,365
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    242
    Location:
    Remnant
    Likes:
    +4,092
    IP Theft is the BIGGEST offender here, your basically making a profit on someone else's property here. And I REFUSE to take part in that by buying their garbage. But I also have other issues with them...

    They are EXPENSIVE. I'm not made of money, I barely can afford a leader class figure. Then again this shouldn't be that big of a problem considering I sometimes am treated to a Botcon or Fun Publication figure.

    They are catered to the MP collector. I hate Masterpieces, most of the figures they release anymore are to help those impatient MP collectors fill out their collections before Takara does.

    They make some of the ugliest figures. Ever. Simple as that, their combiners and their individual combiner limbs are the biggest offenders. Heck most of them look to be highly complex, I enjoy the simpler complexes brought on by DOTM & FOC.

    I know this has nothing to do with them directly, but I hate this superiority complex a lot of people who only collect 3rd Party or collect MP & 3rd Party tend to have. Now I know a majority don't have this but there a lot I've encountered that treat 3rd Party as the be all end all to a Transformer collection, anything less then that or a MP to be garbage.

    Those are the major offenders and why I refuse to buy/collector 3rd Party figures. Heck I know people make upgrade kits to improve a figure, yeah no I'm going to enjoy the figure the way it came straight out of package.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. TyrantGalvatron

    TyrantGalvatron Hasbro is NOT your enemy.

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2016
    Posts:
    2,455
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    212
    Location:
    Proud Member of the Pew Pew Posse
    Likes:
    +3,607
    Ebay:
    Facebook:
    Twitter:
    Instagram:
    I only buy 3rd party add-ons for existing official HasTak figures.

    The following are the reasons why I shy away from 3rd party figures:

    1) IP copyright-- I like to support the official companies that started it all. It's sort of a "thank you" for creating something that I truly love. I want to be loyal to the brand. Plus, I know that my money is going towards the development of even more official toys in the future.

    2) Cost-- 3P figures are insanely overpriced.

    3) Looks-- Most if not all 3P figures are over complicated design wise. It makes them unattractive to look at. For me personally, part of what makes the Transformers brand truly what it is, is the simplicity of the way a character looks as well as fun and intuitive transformations.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. T-Hybrid

    T-Hybrid Optimal Opthanos

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2006
    Posts:
    12,563
    News Credits:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +5,475
    Are these the *only* people you want to hear from?

    I agree that it's IP theft and tapdances around some pretty serious copyright issues, but the real reason I don't dip my toe into the 3P market is because I simply can't afford to. And once I did it would be hard to pull my toe back out.

    I don't hold this against the 3P product, but agree there's a large portion of 3P collectors who forget that being able to afford them is a privilege that many of us simply can't make work...even if we like the figures being put out.

    That's why I don't get people who rag on CW/UW compared to 3P combiners. Sure, they're not as detailed. Or as large. Or as complex of a transformation...but they're also often 5-6 times less expensive. I was able to buy the entire Technobot team from Hasbro for the cost of a single limb.

    And I'm hoping against hope that either Hasbro or Takara is going to reward my patience by revealing their CW/UW Piranacon before I either cave and buy TFC Poseidon or online stores run out of stock.
     
  17. Zethrofax

    Zethrofax Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2016
    Posts:
    593
    Trophy Points:
    162
    Likes:
    +433
    I bought all the 3p MP offerings that were released the last few years but recently sold all of them off. I was happy with them, but ultimately, knowing that they weren't official releases always nagged at me. I used to collect comic books and I hated anything but the 1st print of a book, so I think the psychology is related. Another part of it was that trying to keep up with all of the different releases was a nightmare. I think there are 5 MP style Springers currently in development from various 3p companies. I decided I am more happy waiting for HasTak and simply accepting it as the only option and deciding if it is worth it to me. Plus it eliminated the constant anxiety of keeping up with the preponderance of releases.

    as far as the IP issue is concerned, I couldn't care less, it's Takara's responsibility to protect their IP and I don't feel loyalty to any corporation in that regard. it is their fault that there is such an open and widespread market for unofficial product due to their (perceived) ambivalence of it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. konrathink

    konrathink Jared Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2007
    Posts:
    2,099
    Trophy Points:
    262
    Likes:
    +512
    I mainly stick to official product unless really blown away by a third party offering (looking at you WeiJiang OS Optimus Prime).

    Almost all third parties figures completely nail the bot mode and the alt mode. If you're only looking for a toy car or a robot statue then you're in luck. There is plenty out there for you. I think third parties miss an important step, or steps depending on how you look at it. The transformation process. Wardog, Appolyon, Cupola and more are just a nightmare to transform. Set aside an afternoon and some swear words and have at it. Hasbro has generally simplified their transformation over the past few years and while I didn't agree with it at first I am generally on board with their line of thinking.

    There is something to be said about the experience between modes. You don't want it to be too simple that it's not enjoyed, but you don't want it to be too complex that it's no longer fun to play with. I enjoy playing with my toys, so therefore, I stick mainly to official product.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2005
    Posts:
    13,536
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +2,774
    I'm not sure most cases are blatant IP theft, but it's dangerously borderline. And the only reason I say this is that Hasbro laid down specific terms for acceptable sale of fan works several years ago, and this essentially constitutes an informal license. The bullet points I remember were
    -Character resemblance is OK
    -Use of copyrighted names and logos is not OK
    -Commercial sales at fan venues and outlets is OK
    -Commercial sales at mainstream retail outlets is not OK

    Most of the 3Ps adhere strictly to these rules, even though I don't think Hasbro ever envisioned entire lines of actual unofficial transforming figures when they laid out these rules.

    But stuff like KOs and oversized/undersized versions of actual Hasbro/Takara toys is outright IP theft, and it happens often enough to be a concern.

    As for my personal stance, I'm a "fill in the gaps" guy. The existence of 3P is great for filling a need that Hasbro seems unlikely to ever fill themselves. I do prefer official stuff when both options are available. Reasons:
    -Sense of canonicity. I.e. it's an official version.
    -Price--obvious. Fansproject's Warbot Defender was great, but Hasbro's eventual Springer was just as great, much larger, and cost far less.
    -Consistency of quality and aesthetic. Hasbro and Takara have built a fairly consistent "house style" for most of their lines over the years, which covers everything from certain styles in the face sculpts, to trends in the engineering techniques, to the types of plastic and paints used, to the tried and true 5mm peg system. A really good 3P product like Maketoys' Giant (which I own) may be arguably of a much higher quality than the official Devastator. And yet it feels less like an actual Transformers toy, and looks less like Devastator as a character despite its high quality.
     
  20. Rodimus Mike

    Rodimus Mike I Drank What?

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Posts:
    5,988
    Trophy Points:
    302
    Location:
    NE Texas
    Likes:
    +355
    Ebay:
    I realize their are 2 Sides to this story,but I will just use the analogy of Yin versus Yang that you can't have one without the other.Whether you buy 3P products or not.

    Those that claim its IP Theft let me ask you this but would you have gotten Takara MP29 Laserwave/Shockwave if FansToys Quake Wave hadn't been released,meaning would Takara had even done him?. Probably not.And you may hate 3P's till your dying breath but you cannot deny 3P's had no influence in your decision to buy the Official Figure.

    So in closing Has/Tak is equally responsible for releasing their own products to compete with 3P's as 3P's are,and again you just can't have one without the other.
     

Share This Page