Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Dinobot Snarl, Feb 26, 2010.
YouTube - Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen In 5 Seconds
I'm just say'n...
To put it quite simply, the reaction to Prime's actions in the movie is merely based upon opinion- something that I feel we can all agree upon. Those who have wished the Autobots to be an actual military faction fighting against the Decepticons will see Prime's actions as a step in the right direction- he is a war hero and leader who has seen his fair share of tyranny and destruction in his time as a leader and has therefore been desensitized to the effect of war, destroying Decepticons because they are monsters who started a conflict which they hoped to end by becoming the most powerful faction among the Cybertronian race but ended up instead becoming a power hungry group that ended up killing those who they believed they were superiors to and causing the Allspark to leave the planet. The Decepticons are their own undoing- a race so consumed by a lust for power that they would rather slay all of those who believed their ideals and actions to be unjust then attempt to solve this issue diplomatically and inevitably becoming villains in doing so. If they have taken this path, they now find no remorse in killing not only other Cybertronians but also humans in order to enforce their goal- and, in the case of post-2007 Decepticons, to remind Autobots and humans of their purpose, that they have ceased to be a worthy opponent and are instead viewed as treacherous, irredeemable monsters with a fervor for killing. Perhaps the Movie Optimus Prime understands this and is willing to destroy any Cybertronian who is willing to affiliate themselves with such a faction- those who align themselves are beyond redemption and, though they may attempt to run from the forces of the Autobots, are perfectly content with taking human and Autobot lives along the way- case in point, Bonecrusher (in his actions against humans by destroying a bus) and Demolisher (his actions being destroying helicopters, NEST members, and civilians).
However, those who see Prime's actions as irredeemable base their opinion upon the character that has been established throughout the 25 years of Transformers- one who would rather reach out and attempt to touch the soul of a Decepticon and show him the error of his ways, or to try to stress the importance of basic morals and ideas, or only cut loose when he has no other choice or has witnessed the treachery and disturbed nature of the Decepticons firsthand. From G1 to Animated, we have seen a Prime who had been self-sacrificing and a true leader- one who reflects upon his actions that have yet to be performed or have already been performed and decides whether or not they are just. He has killed only because he believes that the Decepticon who is his target is beyond redemption- Megatron in the 86 Movie, Megatron in Armada, Cybertron, etc. But otherwise, he has been a fair and just leader.
But why is Prime from the 2006-2009 movies considered to be one or the other? He obviously has a line that he draws between those who are good and those who are evil. Prime from the 86 movie attacks and kills Decepticons because they are in the way of his true goal- Megatron. Prime from the 2007 movie kills Bonecrusher because he is attempting to get in the way of Prime's true goal- protecting the Allspark. Prime from the 86 movie and Prime from RiD, Armada, and Cybertron attempt to destroy Megatron because he is a force of evil- ever-corrupting, ever challenging, and ever-present- it seems that the destruction of Megatron is the only choice of ever stopping the evil that plagues the galaxy. Prime from the 86 movie mocks his opponent by saying "You who are without mercy now begs for it?" which is no more of an insult than "They were your brothers too!" and "You picked the wrong planet!" are. "Give me your face" is again, a subjective comment, as fans may believe it to be a statement of mockery, a statement of "I'm trying to be a badass right now", or even "I'm being a ruthless S.O.B.". Those who support the movie violent Prime may justify it as a "Your face is the symbol of the Decepticons, so let me take it to dishonor their cause", but those who reject Prime's actions and motives may see it as "I'm going to rip your face off so let me say this line to accentuate it". But essentially, every line, even the lines from 86 Prime and 07-09 Prime are to support the badassery of the current Prime, not matter how insulting, revolting, or untrue to the character they may be.
Prime's actions are, again, interpreted based on opinion. Killing the Fallen in such a brutal manner, as well as Scavenger and Bonecrusher, is based upon the tolerance one has to violence as well as the image one has of Optimus Prime. Those who argue "Prime would never do that" are again drawing upon the established morals of Prime. Those who support his actions are either fans of the established morals who find Prime to be a character too often thrown around and taken advantage of, or simply want their Autobot leader to be more of a badass. Let's face it, in war, you have to be wise and experienced in fighting the enemy in order to be a successful leader. The war, however, varies upon cartoon or movie. As said before, the war the Autobots are fighting is real in the movieverse, often frighteningly so, as Autobots resort to flashy and violent ways of disposing their age-old enemies. This is based upon the brutality and rage of the Decepticons, which the Autobots may have to equal in order to overcome their enemies. In Animated, the Autobots have to use clever ideas in order to outsmart and defeat their Decepticon foes, as the Decepticons are clearly more powerful than them. However, in the movies, the Autobots are equal to the Decepticons in design and aggressiveness, and therefore have to match the aggressiveness of the Decepticons in order to defeat them- in Animated, G1, RiD, Cybertron, etc. matching the Decepticons means overpowering/outsmarting them, not killing them, as these cartoons are directed toward children and emphasize nonkilling results- in the movieverse, killing Decepticons is accepted and considered a foil to their plans because it is a bit more realistic. The nature of the Autobot/Decepticon war has varied between the Decepticons having the upper hand, to vice versa, to the Decepticons being a revolutionary faction, to even being a rogue group of warriors attempting to change the past- the face and tactics of the Autotbots must change every time a new Decepticons approach reveals itself.
Let's not forget that the movies are made in order to entice and enthrall viewers- Sideswipe exclaiming "Damn, I'm good" is an example of comic relief as well as an expression of a rookie Autobot trying to justify his ability to kill and the flashiness he has executed the kill with. Viewers of the movie do not necessarily have to be fans of the Transformers franchise in other to view it, that is why Autobots are often portrayed with less depth and justification of their actions as they are in comics and extended fiction. The movies are not only a fanservice, though we can certainly appreciate bickering between Starscream and Megatron and various other homages, etc. these movies are not meant to appeal to only us- they are also focused upon bringing in the audiences and making them enjoy the crazy robot-on-robot action. Though moviegoers may recognize Optimus Prime and Megatron, they may not be as in-touch with the characters' morals as diehard fans are. We may be asking for the perfect Transformers movie, but casual moviegoers are simply asking for basics- a well-created action movie that presents an interesting plot, an obvious hero and villain, and the other essentials for what makes a good action movie. the record-breaking gross that Revenge of the Fallen achieved is not caused by those who are fans of the the franchise and enjoyed the movie alone- is is caused by the appeal of casual moviegoers. There is already a majority of fans who dislike the move- there must be another group of non-fans who enjoy the movie even so.
In RoTF, Optimus is the obvious hero, and his slaying of the ultimate evil, the Fallen, is more or less justified by the audience's concept of what is right and what is wrong- in other words, the Fallen's death is okay in the casual and fan's eyes because both the audience and the casual viewer understands that the Fallen is evil, even though the fan understands this on a higher level because they have more of a connection to the fiction of Transformers and understand that the Fallen is a villain they have encountered before.
Long story short, we must be reminded constantly that the Transformers Movie Franchise is not meant to be our holy grail of Transformers mythos, it is meant to bring in money. When the script is written, it may feature homages for us, but the reason the movie never ends up being a direct recreation of G1, RiD, Armada, etc is because it must appeal to a larger audience, not only us. We argue, bitch, complain, and support because of our opinions on the franchise, but we are not the only ones in the world. Our opinions may affect the production of action figures, but they do not dictate the opinion of the masses, nor will they ever. So while we bicker and debate the nature of Optimus Prime, there is another faction of causal moviegoers who are concerned with whether or not an action movie has enough action to satisfy their needs, or whether or not a movie has the right amount of classic homages and modern advancements in screenwriting and visual effects in other to enthrall and captivate them.
Aside from much of what has already been stated in this thread, I feel I have little to contribute, except to organize both sides of the argument into cohesive paragraphs. I still enjoy the idea that each new rendition of Transformers must have a unique version of not only Optimus Prime, but the Autobots themselves associated with it- as well as the Decepticons. I can truthfully day that the Decepticons in the movieverse are some of the most monstrous I've seen throughout the entire franchise of Transformers, and that the Autobots react to this threat in a completely different manner, one that I don't find too violent or too unrealistic, but almost a balance between the two.
Wrote this before, I still think I'm in the best place with it.
....wow. I really don't think I have anything to add.
I will add something here:
Its not that Prime kills, its his brutality. None of the Decepticons in the movie are nearly as Brutal as Prime. Imagine if the transformers were human, the amount of gore and blood and savagery his actions present. When a human soldier encounters an enemy combatant, he doesn't invent new horrifying tactics against his adversary, he normally shoots him beats him unconscious, stabs him, etc. But shooting a downed soldier in the eye, pulling a combatant's face in two and tearing the face off another is not Prime behavior. Would you be able to call any human heroic, if in the middle of battle he figured out how to pull his opponents entire face off??? Or shoot downed opponent in the eye?
Well said ravage :3
Depends. Is this the middle-ages, when war was cool? Because them old boys went to freaking town on eachother.
If Peter Cullen didn't have a problem with it, neither should we. He IS Prime.
You must have missed the part where I said "Prime's actions are interdependent on how badass those creating his image want him to be." Michael Bay is an action director, therefore he would want his Prime to be badass. Also, the very fact that these AREN'T humans makes Prime's brutality easier to deal with.
Scavenger is a head with arms and wheels. Where else would Prime shoot him? And again, I covered acts of brutality beforehand.
The whole "what if they were human soldiers" thing really doesn't work either. For the analogy to work, a human soldier would have to be relatively immune to small arms fire (All the Autobots are peppered with Decepticon gunfire at various points and aren't inhibited by it), capable of regenerating damage, and unable to be captured (We had two instances of Decepticons penetrating highly secure areas, one of which even being the Autobot's "home base"). Also they can grow swords out of their arms.
So now is it so outrageous for a "human soldier" to run up on an enemy, skewer them, and blow them away before they have the time to get back up and regenerate, possibly producing a concealed weapon?
I will take give-me-your-face Prime over I'm-so-nice-I-won't-even-send-you-off-to-Arkham-Asylum Prime.At least I know which one can get the job done and keep the galaxy safe
My opinion on this whole thing is somewhere in the middle.
I don't mind a Prime who kills in battle. (It's a war after all. Sometimes it's kill or be killed) But I do also think that the brutal nature Prime was portrayed as in ROTF was just a bit too much for the character.
That said, if there are seriously still people who are lamenting or disturbed by "Face taker" Prime, then you really need to just get over it and move on.
I never saw him as psychopathic. "Give me your face" is the only line I ever thought didn't fit with Prime, movie or otherwise. It seems to come out of nowhere. (movie Prime talks smack, but it's always been just regular ol' TF smack talk) Even the action isn't nearly as visceral as the line implies. Frankly, anything other than an above-average brutal Prime would seem out of place in the movies, which are heavily realistic when it comes to war and combat. Plus you have to remember these are movies, the giant robot fights have to be interesting and seem just as brutal as they sound to make the action scene worth the price of admission.
Now if he was chopping up babies and wearing body parts as a necklace, then I'd probably see where people are coming from.
Quoted for truth. These aren't humans, and need to be dealt with in a non-human fashion. Megatron was beaten, filled with led, lost and arm and got his face blown off and still was able to waltz away.
Why would he have a problem with it?
1. It's a movie
2. To him, it's a job...
3. for which he was paid handsomely, I'm sure.
I'm sure he doesn't care what the character does. I mean if the script called for Prime to finger-bang Sam, then maybe he'd have objected, but...
Think of it this were if you were an autobot you would get tired of having to deal with the decpeticons coming back all the time so Optimus is probaly mad at them for being "Puny wastes of metal".
I love ROTF Optimus Prime. Pure badass.
Well said---er, typed Radioactive Ravage, well typed.
I'm just gonna throw my 2 cents in here while the conversation's still fresh.
Prime feels that Earth is threatened, like Cybertron. Prime feels a sentimental bond with earth because the Allspark was destroyed back in TFTM, thus Prime treats Earth as though it is Cybertron. When an unkown force, such as the Fallen, comes onto the planet, Prime feels the need to defend Cybertron (Earth) with his life. Also, The solar harvester was never supposed to be used on a planet with life. Prime felt that The Fallen Violated that sacred rule and that he must be terminated with extreme predjuice.
Thanks for hearing me out.
How one measures being a badass is entirely down to the individual. I for example find Captain Picard to be far more badass than Captain Kirk because I use a different set of values to measure that brand of cool.
For instance, if Prime had instead said a small prayer for Demolisher's spark in hope of giving him some kind of absolution or even just said "Go in peace" and then blown his brains out, it at least would looked like Prime is doing some he needs to do but doesn't seem to be getting any enjoyment out of it.
And its also down to character and situation: I always smile like a kid at Christmas when Sean Connery says "That was a Smith and Wesson, and you've had your six" and shoots his would be assassin in the stomach.
Oh BTY, The vid actually left out the bit where Prime shoots Meg in the face with his own cannon.
I really don't care for this Prime myself. I don't find him to be badass at all. The thing about Prime I've always liked is that he isn't the type of hero who didn't freak out in bad situations and kept his soldiers under control. Peter Cullen said he even based Prim'es voice on his brother who was like this.
Separate names with a comma.