Planes vs. planes

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by UltraMagnus3786, Jan 26, 2011.

  1. UltraMagnus3786

    UltraMagnus3786 That's what it is

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2008
    Posts:
    2,095
    Trophy Points:
    172
    Likes:
    +2
    Who would win in a fight: the 3 original seekers + the coneheads vs. the aerialbots + powerglide? Would it matter if powerglide were replaced with Skyfire?

    I'd say on the whole the Autobot planes probably work together better. But the 3 original seekers are pretty badass and could probably take out that chump powerglide pretty easily making it a 6v5 fight. But they'd have a harder time with Skyfire.

    Put another way, would two separate "teams" (original seekers + coneheads) overpower or be defeated by 1 full team + a straggler?
     
  2. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout SANTARN IS COMING AGAIN TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Posts:
    26,305
    Trophy Points:
    357
    Location:
    Moxxi's Bar
    Likes:
    +343
    I find it amusing that you consider Powerglide a weaking since his TechSpec does quite clearly state he can outperform most of the other planes, especially the Seekers. Factor in the A-bots (especially Skydive, who along with Powerglide is one of the best Autobot fliers) and that they can combine into Superion, that makes the Autobot fliers a little better than you seem to give them credit for.

    On top of that, the techspecs for Dirge and Thrust indicate that even though they are high ranking, they would need lots of underwear everytime they went fighting. Dirge's courage rating is a 2, and Thrust's is one. ONE. He would fly away from battle the moment one of the Autobots got an advantage over him, and Dirge soon after once his "fear generating frequency" stops working. Skywarp is a little too stupid to even remember he can teleport sometimes, and Ramjet's personal way of fighting involves ramming the enemy. If anything, the Autobots would have the upper hand.

    Oh, and if Sky/Jetfire was substituted in for Powerglide, that might actually be detrimental since as shown in Fire in the Sky, the seekers took him out FAR to easily.
     
  3. UltraMagnus3786

    UltraMagnus3786 That's what it is

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2008
    Posts:
    2,095
    Trophy Points:
    172
    Likes:
    +2
    Hahah well I can't really argue with you on any of those points. I never knew much about the tech specs, so I was going off the cartoon. As for Sky/Jetfire, I haven't seen Fire in the Sky in a while. He's been portrayed as a scientist in IDW, but seemed more capable in the cartoon.

    Part of me still wants to believe 6 planes would give Superion +1 a run for their money.
     
  4. thespaniard

    thespaniard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Posts:
    217
    Trophy Points:
    61
    Likes:
    +0
    Just because power glide is a good flyer doesn't mean he's good in a fight. Silverbolt is scared of heights and if they combine superior can only fight one at a time which leaves five other seekers to shoot him in the back. How Would the null Ray effect such a big enemy I wonder (plus I want to see those cocky autobot flyers get a good kicking. Why are all the autobot flyers so arrogant when the decepticons aren't nearly as bad.
     
  5. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout SANTARN IS COMING AGAIN TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Posts:
    26,305
    Trophy Points:
    357
    Location:
    Moxxi's Bar
    Likes:
    +343
    Heh. In the cartoon, all he really was used for was transportation (the Autobot's version of Astrotrain, if you will) and for the one time he did the Macross gerwalker thing. Going off of his Classics figure, though, he's rediculously armed in both modes so he'd still kick the **** out of a few 'Cons. As for IDW, as cool as their stories can be at times, they tend to go their own way when characterizing some oldies. Take the Technobots during Stormbringer, for example; they were all essentially nerds. Going back to the original G1 bios, they were anything but.

    As for the "planes vs. Superion" debacle, you need to remember that Silverbolt, the core robot of Superion, is a friggin Concorde SST with a lightning gun. He'd be seriously larger than the Seekers in real life, and he's the least capable of the Aerialbots when it comes to fighting since the others are F-series fighters (F-15C, F-16C, and F-4B) and a Harrier jet w/ VTOL abilities. Since the Seekers are either F-15's or Cybertronian versions of F-15's, theoretically they'd be on the same level when it comes to Alt. modes (Thrust's VTOL's counter Slingshot's/Airrazor's).

    Here's Powerglide's Classics 2.0 bio, which was essentially what I paraphrased before:
    Powerglide (2008) - Autobot - www.tfu.info

    Also, simply because 4 seekers are left alone to shoot Superion in the back (not counting Thrust, since he's such a coward that he would have run off at the sight of Superion) does not mean the wack-physics of the "B.O.T." episode suddenly come into play and ONE SHOT takes down the combiner. Superion is a super warrior, he can take a few hits.

    Also, going off of nearly every single portrayal of Starscream's null rays, they're nothing more than just lasers as I've NEVER seen them actually demonstrate the ability of shutting down electrical stuff in any form. However, for the sake of argument, let's say Starscream's null rays do have their full effect. That would also make every other outlandish TechSpec attribute true as well, which includes Skydive's nega-gun (which breaks down molecular bonds in anything) and Air Raid's torque gun (which applies 80K of rotational force to anything). So what if Starscream's null rays can shut down electric machines? One shot from Air Raid's gun would be enough to at least SNAP THE WINGS RIGHT OFF A SEEKER. No need for Superion there. In all honesty, G1 robots were so overpowered with their weapons that if any of it were true, you'd wonder just how this war of theirs could have lasted so damn long and how they haven't ended up killing each other within minutes.

    Lastly, for the cocky additude of Autobot fliers, the idea is that they were somewhat "better" than the other Autobots because of their ability to fly (or rather, lack of jetformers, the reversal of the idea of Megatron's to make car Decepticons to make up for the lack of Car-Cons), but the Decepticon jets probably didn't seem so arrogant because ALL the Decepticons were arrogant assholes. The Aerialbots at least go a wake up call in War Dawn I think when they go back in time and witness the creation of Optimus Prime, realizing the true nature of the Decepticons.
     
  6. FatalT 71

    FatalT 71 Mr. JazzHunter

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Posts:
    6,823
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    192
    Likes:
    +6
    Much as I love him, I know that once the battle turned against him, Starscream would be screaming "Decepticons!! RETREAT!!!"
     
  7. AutoCon2076

    AutoCon2076 Brightest can in toolshed

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Posts:
    2,687
    Trophy Points:
    151
    Likes:
    +1
    Sixshot would win. The other Decepticon fliers could stay home.

    ~Z
     
  8. Maverick Hunter Christian

    Maverick Hunter Christian Choke on that, causality!

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2002
    Posts:
    3,993
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    207
    Likes:
    +15
    Pretty much this.
     
  9. Infosaur

    Infosaur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2004
    Posts:
    3,688
    Trophy Points:
    202
    Likes:
    +3
    Although Silverbolt is afraid of heights, Powerglide isn't and relishes complex manuvers.
    Skydive is actually a master tactician, and Fireflight, AirRaid and Slingshot are agressive street fighters.

    Starscream is an oppertunist, Skywarp's a bit thick, Thundercracker doubts the cause, Thrust is a coward, Dirge is a depressed pessimist, and Ramjet's self destructive.

    You gotta wonder how the Decepticons got along THIS long!
     
  10. Maverick Hunter Christian

    Maverick Hunter Christian Choke on that, causality!

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2002
    Posts:
    3,993
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    207
    Likes:
    +15
    Those are just aspects of their personalities, though. It doesn't dictate their every action.

    Thundercracker's not gonna not return fire against a bunch of Autobots shooting at him just because he has some doubts about the direction of his faction.
     
  11. tusko

    tusko Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2004
    Posts:
    4,727
    News Credits:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    257
    Likes:
    +183
    Twitter:
    Google+:
    Flickr:
    Starscream, Thundercracker and Skywarp would take out all the Autobot jets mentioned. They are all specialists and just out class Superion or Powerglide. Throw in the coneheads and really use Dirge's fear based powers and the Decepticon's would continue to rule the skies.
     
  12. Pravus Prime

    Pravus Prime Sorcerer

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2002
    Posts:
    14,110
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    277
    Likes:
    +70
    MTMTE 1, 2
    Transport to Oblivion
    Enter the Nightbird
    Starscreams Brigade

    Each of those episodes has Starscream using the Null Ray to shut something down, Megatron in the last of the list.

    Starscream also used it in the comics, including in The Savage Circle which ended up downing the Ark.
     
  13. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

    Joined:
    May 13, 2006
    Posts:
    17,583
    Trophy Points:
    297
    Location:
    Robot Narnia, Quebec
    Likes:
    +74
    Let me lay this out for a moment... the Decepticon Seekers are definitely a gang of misfits with discipline problems... but they are probably all pretty seasoned aerial combatants. And looking at the Autobots, they have some issues as well...

    Silverbolt - competent leader, so long as he isn't called upon to do anything too fancy that might trigger his fear of heights. He also has a pretty powerful lightning attack... but he's not really a warplane, and makes a big target. He's a wild card... he could lose it pretty quickly, ESPECIALLY due to the fact that one of his Con adversaries can directly target someone's fear response. Dirge would WRECK Silverbolt for this reason.

    Powerglide - He's not really a team player. He's a cocky little bastard, and his bio clearly states that because of this "he often gets into more trouble than he can handle with enemy jets." He doesn't carry a lot of firepower, and is SLOW as an airplane... I think when his original bio was written, it was probably under the mistaken impression that his alt-mode was a WWII warplane, because that fits his slow flying speed and high maneuverability perfectly. He IS a great pilot, and he might be able to pull a few tricks out, but he is also a grandstander who is a bit out of his league with the bigger, faster jets.

    Fireflight
    - This guys is a menace. He's a clumsy flier (his Skill rating is 3), easily distracted, and uses an incendiary "area of attack" weapon that could be as much a hazard for his friends or his foes. He does have a weapon that distorts an opponent's vision, which could even up some odds if he hits, though it's hard to say if TFs use additional radar-based systems to fly like real jets do.

    Skydive
    - This is where things get interesting. Not only is he an aerial tactics genius, but he is noted for being possibly the most skillful pilot of ALL TRANSFORMERS. What he lacks in killer instinct, I think he makes up in ability, so the Bots will be relying on him to carry them a bit.

    Slingshot - he may be a jerk, but he's also pretty hardcore... a highly maneuverable weapons platform. Very powerful weapons, and skilled enough to use them accurately. This guy is another anchor for the Bot team.

    Air Raid - he's a bit like Powerglide, except with the speed and the muscle to back it up. It might be hard holding him to a tactical battle plan, but he'll be more than willing to mix it up with the Cons, and might be the guy who is most likely to spook Thrust or Dirge with his aggressive tactics.

    As for the Decepticons...

    Starscream - we know he's good. Maybe not as good as he thinks he is, but he's still a serious threat. I think that a lot depends on the set-up to this battle... if the Decepticons get to make the first move, it will probably give them a decisive edge, due to Stascream's tactical guile and preference for surprise attacks.

    Skywarp - not to bright, but not an imbecile either. His stats indicated that he's still a very brave, competent skirmisher. His teleportation is dodgy at long ranges, but in a dogfight, could be devastating.

    Thundercracker - Between Thrust and him, there's a lot of shock and awe going around... sonic booms, and engine noise loud enough to topple buildings is nothing to sneeze at. But besides that, Thundercracker is a solid flyer and warrior... fast, well-armed, skillful. His issues with "the cause" really wouldn't be an issue in a straight dogfight with enemy aces, so that's not really a weakness here.


    Thrust
    - He's a loud bully with a yellow streak, but he's no slouch either. His sonic assault aside, he's got solid stats for skill and firepower, and has both the power to hyper-accelerate or hover, making him a pretty dangerous opponent.

    Dirge - As already mentioned, his fear attack could make a mess of Silverbolt, and probably have some effect on others as well. It might be too easy to refer back to his own lack of courage, and miss the point of his bio... Dirge is a master of fear and manipulation. It's only if things get too far out of his control that he folds. It's important to remember that Dirge is actually a VERY proficient warrior... strong, intelligent, fast, skillful, and heavily armed. He is statistically one of the best seekers.

    Ramjet - I think some have been dismissive of Ramjet because he prefers to RAM his opponents with his head... but remember this is not a weakness, but a strength. It's a terrifying tactic, and devastating too. Unlike his targets, Ramjet is built to fly away from these collisions to crash something else.

    And what about Jetfire? The poor guy gets slotted into the "scientist" or "transport" category too often, but it's good to remember that his official function is Air Guardian, which suggests that air superiority is something he's supposed to be good at. He's got very high ratings in Skill, Courage, Intelligence, and wields some impressive weapons. I wouldn't count him out.

    Heh... very true. :) 

    His generic lasers seem to be more of a standardized weapon that everybody has when the plot calls for it. As for the Null Ray, I've seen it used and identified that way a few times in the G1 cartoon. Where've you been? :) 

    There you go. :) 

    You raise a good point, but I think you're missing one aspect of those G1 weapons... they may be outlandish and high-tech in terms of how they work... but what is the EFFECT? Is a Torque gun really any more destructive than a sidewinder missile? A nega-gun breaks down molecular bonds in substances... but a particle beam rifle will do the same job too. Basically Transformers tech involves a whole lot of innovative, random, wildly fantastical ways to achieve the same basic effect... blast holes in your opponents. So I wouldn't go overboard in attributing too much to these exotic weapons.

    In Starscream's case, he is notable for a weapon that works on a different principle... which is one reason that the Null Ray seems more dangerous than just another death ray. ;) 

    See, now you're just defaming the Decepticons. As I mentioned earlier, ramming the enemy is actually a pretty effective tactic, if you can walk away from it. And Ramjet can. Also, where are you getting your stats for Thrust and Dirge?? According to their original G1 Specs, both of them are rated at 4 Courage. Still not great, but not exactly the quivering, useless nancies you're portraying them as... :) 

    zmog
     
  14. UltraMagnus3786

    UltraMagnus3786 That's what it is

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2008
    Posts:
    2,095
    Trophy Points:
    172
    Likes:
    +2
    It'd certainly be a tough battle indeed.
     
  15. Prowl 2009

    Prowl 2009 A Decepticons Downfall

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Posts:
    1,102
    Trophy Points:
    126
    Likes:
    +0
    I'd throw my gaunlet in with the aerialbots any day! They work great as a team, for the most part, plus they have Superion at their disposal. The Decepticons would turn tail and run as soon as the battle tipped in the aerialbots favor.
     
  16. GENOZAUR

    GENOZAUR Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2007
    Posts:
    3,209
    Trophy Points:
    151
    Likes:
    +0
    what i want to know is why we never got a a six member jet decepticon combiner team made up of the original 3 seekers and the 3 coneheads?

    or even better megatron shockwave and soundwave as a 3 member combiner team
     
  17. UltraMagnus3786

    UltraMagnus3786 That's what it is

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2008
    Posts:
    2,095
    Trophy Points:
    172
    Likes:
    +2
    as for the jets the originals were introduced before the coneheads. probably a timing issue. also starscream is such an iconic character, having him in a combiner team would lessen his uniqueness.

    likewise with megatron and soundwave. also, megs, sound- and shockwave have nothing in commmon aside from being decepticons, why would they combine?
     
  18. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

    Joined:
    May 13, 2006
    Posts:
    17,583
    Trophy Points:
    297
    Location:
    Robot Narnia, Quebec
    Likes:
    +74
    I don't know... I think Starscream would get a kick out of being a combiner leader, especially if he got to form the head. Knowing him, he'd revise the combiner system to his own persona asserted itself over the other team members, so he would get all the power without having to "share" it with anyone or suppress his own identity. :) 

    But I admit that I do have a particular disdain for imposing combining on characters from other teams. It tends to cheapen the whole combiner thing if everybody can do it. For this reason I was very happy the Dinobots were a coherent, defined 5-part team that DIDN'T combine.

    (or shouldn't, in case someone's about to mention The Beast)

    zmog
     
  19. ChrisW

    ChrisW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2006
    Posts:
    553
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Likes:
    +0
    If we allow the Decepticons to be competent, then they could very quickly gain the upper hand. Have Skywarp target Slingshot (the slowest Aerialbot), and have Dirge target Silverbolt. Have the others keep their targets distracted. Then, get Skywarp to teleport into a position where he can attack whoever Ramjet is facing so that Ramjet can break off and take out Silverbolt (who should be mostly incapacitated by Dirge at this point).

    A sufficiently devastating attack should take Silverbolt out of the battle, preventing the formation of Superion (and thus allowing Thrust to remain useful) and also eliminating the one Autobot who will most likely be coordinating the others. Additionally, you make the other Aerialbots very angry, which can prompt them to make stupid mistakes in the name of revenge.

    Still, this would require a level of competence that I don't think the Decepticons have shown in the cartoon or comics.
     
  20. Shockwave 75

    Shockwave 75 Master of the Rules.

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2002
    Posts:
    299
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Likes:
    +0
    One technical point. As a Concord, Silverbolt would be the least manouverable plane ot there. Not to mention that a Concord's top speed is at best mach 2.02 while an F15's is mach 2.7 at least. So he'd also be quite slow compared to the others as well.
     

Share This Page