Well i think the 3rd film will be like the 1986 g1 movie they will kill everybody off..

one massive war and there be brutal as hell..

 

Cool discussion guys. Let's keep it going and keep it civil.  

I respect your opinion, but I'm not sure I agree. Certainly not with your first point, this kind of sweeping statement does not really do justice to the human race. Many humans do this, but many others do not.

But to focus on your second point, the goal of achieving a negotiated peace is somewhat predicated on the Decepticons actually also wanting peace to some degree. One could argue that the Con's have clearly shown that they do not want peace, indeed, the movie Cons have no real personality other than GRAAAAHHH!!!! KILLLL!!!!! EVILLL!!!!!

"What are your terms?" Prime could ask them.
"We want you all to be dead or be our slaves." they reply.
Not much room there for negotiation

Would Prime not be foolish to keep making huge sacrifices of human and Autobot life to keep chasing a goal that seems highly unlikely? Does he have the right to throw all those innocent lives away chasing that fleeting dream? Isn't his job primarily to protect his own people and the innocent lives of the humans? Granted, I agree he should treat Decepticons with as much civility and honor as possible (as I've said, the execution as it was presented sits ill with me as I don't think it was very Prime-like), but there comes a point in war when it's "us or them." No sane leader worth his salt is going to decide to protect or preserve the enemy at the expense of his own people.

I think on the first point, what we have is a squad of soldiers on one side of a war hunting a squad of soldiers on the other side of a war. They find this squad just chilling out and relaxing. There is no rule of war that says the hunting squad have to alert the other squad that they are about or be attacked, or let them fire first. Indeed, as I've pointed out, catching your enemy off guard like that is usually considered a very good tactic. The Autobots and Decepticons are at war. Demolisher and Sideways are enemy soldiers. Even by Human rules of war, the NEST/Autobot assault is perfectly legitimate.

On the second point. I'll also point out that Demolisher and Sideways probably have done terrible things. It's kinda hard to be a Decepticon without being involved in some awful bloodshed. We don't know what they'd done before that scene, perhaps they'd committed some terrible atrocity the day before and were in hiding because they knew the Autobots were coming for them. But even if they had not, they were still soldiers in a war. The attack on them was perfectly legitimate.

I do agree on your third point, that I don't think Autobots like Prime should show quite so much relish in killing, though even in G1, there are Autobots like Sunstreaker, Cliffjumper and Blades who do show EXTREME relish in killing. Not all Autobots are nice people.

  

 

Prime could have stopped The Fallen without ripping his face off and without the comment he made about taking his face! Actually, most other incarnations of Prime would probably have tried to talk to the Fallen before resorting to violence.

 

So if the Autobots have no moral code or sense of fair play, does that not mean there is little to distinguish between them and the Decepticons. Both humans and Autobots are intent on destroying the Decepticons with no mercy, no trial, etc. Doesn't that mean then that Megatron has every right to kill all humans and all Autobots and destroy the sun? After all, if he doesn't they'll destroy him. The humans have already imprisoned him at the dam against his will and a second time at the bottom of the ocean.

 

Agree. If The Humans and Autobots have a "kill at all costs" attitude, then what makes the Decepticon's stance any different? How is fighting to save humans any more noble than fighting to save Cybertronians? Megatron will make them all warriors when he raises them? Apparently prime has enlisted humans in an army as well.

If Prime does not follow a high moral code and doesn't wear the white hat, then there is nothing to distinguish him as better or right except he happens to be on *our* side for now. And if he shows no distinction of right and wrong and simply does what is needed to accomplish his goals, you bet the second the decepticons are gone we should distrust and probably destroy him to in the name of self preservation.

 

I'm sorry, I'm a little confused by what you think the Autobot's lacked in a sense of morals when they attached the Cons in Shanghai. In war you kill your enemy. That's real life. I think it comes back to the point I made in my first post but I think some people may have a certain...I'm sorry, I can't think of a less loaded word...naivety about the way war is fought and the way violence works in the real world, which is what Bay's transformers are closer to than most of the cartoon shows. If you have to fight an enemy, you do so with the most effective weapon at your disposal. You kill him or he will kill you. A soldiers job is not to arrest another soldiers on the battlefield for trial. It is to kill them. The cartoons are mostly for kids and shy away from that, for understandable reasons. The movies (in some ways at least-in other ways the movies are far less nuanced and subtle than shows like Beast Wars and Animated) are more mature and realistic in the way they treat war.

As for fair play-there IS no fair play in war. Ask any soldier. You don't play fair, you play as unfairly as you possibly can or you will loose and you and your comrades will die. That's real life.

I'm sorry, but I don't think your logic about Decepticon plans to wipe out humanity being justified scan either. Because the Autobots and humans are prepared to fight back against the Cons as effectively as possible, the cons therefore have the right to destroy the humans and the sun? Really? Megatron and the Cons are the aggressors. If the Cons back off, chances are the humans and Autobots would too. Prime is still Prime. If a genuine negotiated settlement looked like it was on the cards, the character would jump on it like a shot, I'm sure.

The initial imprisonment of Megatron's frozen body by Sector 7...okay, if Megatron wasn't already a homicidal mass murderer, we could all it unjustified imprisonment. But he was, and the humans were just lucky he didn't wake up before the Autobots came to town. As for the second time, well, the humans dumped Megatron's corpse at the bottom of the ocean because he was dead. They didn't imprison him. They killed him because he was up to his usual "wipe out the human race" tricks and then buried his body as you would to a fallen enemy combatant. Were they not supposed to defend themselves or bury his corpse?
(All meant in the spirit of good natured debate)  

 

I would argue that the simple difference is that the Decepticons are the aggressors, plain and simple. They are fighting to enslave or destroy the human race and the earth. The Autobots are fighting to protect the human race and the Earth. If the Con's backed off, I'm sure Prime would as well.

No offense intended, but I think you're confusing the willingness to fight hard in battle with bloodlust. Prime and NEST are fighting hard to protect Earth and the Human race from the Decepticon clear stated goal of genocide. If they lose, no more earth, so they fight hard and effectively. Once the Cons are defeated, or sue for peace, I seriously doubt that Prime is going to start looking around for other wars to fight.

I'd argue that, even the ROFT Prime shows a high moral code. The NSA idiot asks if the Autobots will leave Earth if requested. Prime basically says yes, that is your right, even if Prime thinks its a really dumb move.

 

I'm in agreement with Coolhand. Prime is only fighting in such a brutal fashion because it is necessary to protect the human race from the Decepticons who are the aggressors. If a chance of peace with the Decepticons arose, i don't doubt that Prime wud welcome that. Prime isn't killing all these Decepticons because he wants to, he does so simply because he has to in order to stop their evil.

And Prime's agreement to leave Earth if ordered to by human leaders is a good example of Prime's higher moral code and respect for others.

Movie Prime values freedom for and peace with others, but he's sensibly realistic about his enemies. Most Decepticons cannot be negotiated with and it would be suicide and foolishly naive to hope so.

 

How many humans did Demolishor kill before Prime got to him? I remember seeing coffins with the Union Jack and Old Glory draped over them, and lets not forget about the non-combatants crushed beneath its feet as it fled from the fight it started.

Rapage was and company were trying to kill Sam and his family.

Ravage shot him in the back with guns and rockets first.

The Fallen was no innocent being.

How long have the Autobots and Decpeticons been at war? Jetfire told us a little story about it, he even told us how bad they were and how they'd stop at nothing. The Decepticons ruined their planet and sought to do the same to Earth.

You can not negotiate with those not interested in negotiating. They Autobots are not without remorse, Prime apologized to Megatron as he lie dying in the first movie--"Sorry, brother. You left me no choice."

Some of the deaths we saw this time around was Michael Bay upping the ante, but I also think the Autobots are done trying to be peaceful with those who have no interest with peace and those ready to rip their own comrades in half (remember Jazz?).

If given the opportunity to surrender, would a Decepticon take it? I doubt it, I think one would fight until its Spark vanished--look at Megatron in the first movie or the Decepticons force in the second when defeat was clear.

 

My guess is Optimus never carries hand cuffs in his utility belt.

 

I think it is also in part due to how Prime doesn't want to repeat what happened to Cybertron. He needs to discourage Decepticons from interfering, lest war break out all over the planet, rather than just the localised battles that have taken place so far.

 

Now at the same time, he's ensuring it by effectively making sure his own race will eventually go extinct.

The option to find another star to use the sun-sucker on could potentially be there, but that's more of a complex and difficult option than the movie is prepared to ever go into.

- Coeloptera

 

After reading several posts,
I must say the movie Autobots throwing one of their most important beliefs out the window is blasphemy.