Discussion in 'Transformers Robots In Disguise / Prime Discussion' started by seekerblackout, Mar 3, 2012.
You have to defeat that party. That's my point.
Not as easy as you think when they outnumber you at least 100 to one.
I suggest the argument stop though.
I think taking Megatron out when it was within their capability to do so would have been as crushing a blow to the Decepticons as losing Optimus was to the Autobots. I think the season opener makes it pretty clear that without Optimus, the Autobots were on borrowed time. Likewise, without Megatron and Starscream, the Decepticons would have had a power vacuum and found themselves directionless. That would have gone a lot further towards ending the war than anything we've seen either side do or are likely to see them do in the remaining episodes of the series.
Even though I've been told it's not comparable, look at how wars are won in the real world. If you have a war that lasts millions of years, not to mention loses both sides your entire PLANET, you are doing something wrong. I've been told Optimus can't stand to lose anyone; they are like a family to him. But I'd point out he has ALREADY lost people, even during the course of the series, and realistically, he would inevitably lose more, the longer the war continues. Because that's what war is. And although they are like family, they aren't supposed to be family. They are soldiers with a job. And Optimus' job is to lead and to win -- not to be everybody's buddy. If anyone here plays chess, you know it is impossible to win without expending pieces (unless you are playing against a 5 year-old, maybe). Pawns at the very least. Can't be done. And a military leader who tries to get no one killed gets everyone killed.
the rest of what you didnt quote-
is not a "half-baked rationalizatoin", for the record- i rewatched taht scene just to make sure i was remembering it properly. It is, IMO the most logical explanation based on what we are given in the episode. Prime 'begones' Megatron, the Autobots rally to his side, he says, "Ratchet? wtf is going on?" Ratchet says its a long story, and they book it. Prime obviously doesn't fully grasp that he has Megatron at a temporary tactical advantage (which could vanish at any second if the Nemesis opens a groundbridge into the cave) and even if they killed Megatron (which could mean the death of any number of the Autobots and Jack)- that doesnt neutralize Soundwave and the Nemesis- so it doesn end the war.
you're point of view is just as much "half-baked rationalization" as anyone else's. Rather than generalizing about everyone else- why not approach your position from a more logical standpoint? do u want a step-stool to help you off your horse now?
In fairness, even if Megs got killed, the 'Cons still have Airachnid to act as leader. Plus Soundwave is there as well, and he generally keeps the present commander up to date, as he did with Star/Megs. It's not stretch to imagine that Airachnid would seize control and get her own campaign started if Megatron went offline.
But honestly, why would Megs pit himself five-on-one with Optimus back? Turn into a jet and fly away.
And you're ignoring what I said about being a crushing blow to the Decepticons. Soundwave isn't a leader. And without Megatron and Starscream on board, the Nemesis is much less of a threat. Do you remember the season one finale multi-parter with Optimus -- by himself -- strolling around like he owned the place?
And yeah, you filling in Optimus' rationale for leaving is out of your imagination, not provided by the episode's script. Sorry. You believing it would be the most logical explanation doesn't change the fact it was thought up by you and not the writers.
As far as losing Jack goes, see my post above about chess.
And if Soundwave had bridged in reinforcements? Yeah, that would have solved the story problem completely. Unfortunately, the writers didn't do that. And you can't do it for them by assuming it was about to happen.
There is no more logical standpoint. Because I'm acknowledging real world logic. The real reason Optimus didn't press his immediate overwhelming advantage is not some hypothetical rationalization you or some other fan dream up, it's because it would take the series to a place the writers don't want to take it. That is all.
But that's not fairness. Airachnid may desire power, but she has zero leadership ability in addition to being a complete tactical moron, as demonstrated by her leaving Starscream to the Autobots in 'Partners'. She didn't even realize the disadvantage she was placing the Decepticons at by making someone with all SS's inside information available to the Autobots. Airachnid becoming Decepticon leader (even if Soundwave would allow it, which he wouldn't) would be about the best thing that could ever happen for the Autobots.
I dunno, man. Her sole brief stint as leader did consist of her pointing out that Megatron had vanished without telling them anything (they didn't know he'd in fact gone to see Optimus/The Matrix) and Unicron was screwing over the planet, so it would be better to run like fun while they still had a chance.
As for abandoning Starscream, that was really bad timing on the part of the Autobots; she turns the corner, having a jolly old chuckle over humilating/webbing Screamer, and bam, four bad guys right there. She made a run for it before they kicked her ass, and since Starscream can't dig, he'd only hamper said retreat. Decepticons always put their own safety over others.
Plus, she got the troops (excluding Soundwave) under her belt much faster than Screamer, the freaking second-in-command of the whole damn army. Gotta give her some credit for her first day on the job.
But that's her rationale for everything: self-preservation. She has no tactical mind. She is fundamentally too much of a loner and sees things only in the short term, and only from her perspective and how they affect her personally. She's not a big-picture thinker. Even the one choice you attribute to her, abandoning Earth, would have turned out to have been the wrong move if she'd been followed.
I suppose it's down to Soundwave to start an epic montage of him training Airachnid in the ways of being a great leader, featuring awesome music, rigorous exercise, the art of b*tchslapping Steves and Knock-Out + Breakdown chilling in the background. Awesome-sauce
Now I've got Eye of the Tiger stuck in my head.
Meta777: Oh, God, what images have you planted in my head?! I've got visions of Soundwave supervising Airachnid doing pushups, boxing, and running up marble stairs!
I agree, it's like Sentinel Prime says in DOTM, Optimus can't make the hard decisions, he's compassionate and cares about his troops lives, unlike Megatron. Optimus needs be like the kage in Naruto or Batman, who care but can also be strong military commander who make the tough decisions when the time comes. I think one of Optimus' inability to do this is displayed in TMI when instead of letting Bulkhead complete the energon formula he was going to bargain it away to the Cons, which would save one life but would give the Cons an even bigger advantage than they already have.
She's definitely a loner, that's why she left the "Boys Club." The way I see it, the only reason she tried to lead the Decepticons is because it's a big opportunity that no one would want to turn down--anyone that didn't know about Soundwave, that is. Plus she would get a new ship since her last one blew up. Otherwise, everything is based around keeping to herself with her wants and needs.
As for being tactical, while she appears to prefer "fun" over logic in everything, she's definitely not stupid.
That's the point though. His guns AREN'T any less powerful as Orion Pax, just his ability to use them is.
If you give the most powerful gun to someone who has never fired a gun before in their life they're label to hurt themselves on the recoil because they won't know how that gun is going to feel when they fire it. They think the bullet just fires and there isn't going to be any recoil or it isn't going to be that bad. But you give that same gun to someone who's been shooting guns for 40+ years and he'll fire it without even flinching.
When Orion went up against Megatron and got his aft handed to him it's not because he was physically weaker than Optimus but because he's mentally weaker. He doesn't have the years of battle experience to be able to stand toe to toe with Megatron.
To be fair the Eradicons don't really have always gone down with not much of a fight so it seems pretty realistic that Orion can't beat them in hand to hand combat but he can take them by accidentally shooting them. Obviously he doesn't know how to fight or he would have.
That's a good point and they did mention it was a "raw" Energon supply which if raw Energon works the same in this series as it does in Beast Wars that means it's highly explosive. Of course we don't really know that for sure because there isn't really anything in this series to make us believe that Energon works the same way as in the Beast Wars series.
No doubt to the tune of Rocky IV's epic "Hearts on Fire"
Man, I love that song.
Airachnid: Wait, what does transform-ups have to do with commanding drones?!
Soundwave: *Absolutely nothing, say it again* *NOW DROP AND GIVE ME TWENTY*
Sam Vimes: "if you're held at swordpoint, hope like hell that your captor is an evil man - because he'll talk, and gloat, and you have time to think of an escape. But a good man will kill you with barely a word"
Airachnid´s first priority should be to learn this lesson. Jack has survived two encounters with her mostly thanks to this quote.
That was my point in what you quoted.
Physically, everything is there. Muscle memory is there too. It's only when Orion is actively in control and thinks instead of lets his instincts take control in a fight he's boned.
Technically he's a robot. He doesn't have any muscle memory, no muscles. I get what you mean though. I'm sure the guns activating was triggered by some emotional responsive need to defend himself sort of like an instinct rather than actually remembering "Oh yeah I can activate my guns by doing this."
I think if Superman lost his memory and thought he was just a normal human he would be able to use his powers on instinct if a time showed up where he really needed to use them. Like for example if you throw Clark Kent out of an air plane without a parachute and he doesn't know he's Superman he isn't going to know how to fly but instincts would eventually kick in and make him fly before he hit the ground. I would image that if it was an instinct thing that he wouldn't actually be able to control his direction or speed but would simply be flying well enough to prevent him from hitting the ground. Of course the fall wouldn't kill him anyway but he doesn't know that and thinking as a human if you could fly and you were falling to what you think is your death you would fly.
That's basically all Orion Pax was doing is instinct kicks in, I need to defend myself, Oh hey I have guns. And after he knows he has them then he can activate them whenever he wants. Doesn't really mean he can do things like aim and for all we know he can adjust the settings like a stun blast and kill blast but Orion Pax wouldn't know that either.
Orion is such a good little boy, he doesn't explore his body at all.
He doesn't notice the guns or blades in his arms, he doesn't notice the giant piece of his own creator stuck in his chest, he doesn't notice that even though he was supposed to be in stasis he got marked with an Autobot sign AND he doesn't notice that his vehicle form is Earthly.
Good thing Cybertronians don't go through puberty, I can only imagine how traumatic it would be for this guy.
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