Origin/Essence/Personality

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by entITy, Feb 26, 2012.

  1. entITy

    entITy G 1

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    Origin/Essence/Personality of TF in G1

    In g1 usa, vector sigma gave Stunticons, Combaticons (I believe) and Aerialbots "life" and only vector sigma or a merged a3 (alpha trion) could.

    Ironic, dinobots were made before that from wheeljack, no vector sigma required.

    Grimlock created cornytron, I mean computron, no vector required.

    Autobot City, Metroplex made on Earth, no vector required.
    (Same Trypticon)

    Green goblins made Scorponok and Fort Max, no vector required.

    Prime came back twice from quintesson, no vector required.

    (Prime should have kidnapped that quint to rebuild wheeljack, etc - how can robots die, just rebuild them like quint did prime)

    Same Ultra with magic wax from Junkions.

    Unicrons eyes blasts starscream and he lives again via deal.

    So I find it funny only vector could, but yet everyone pops up or lives again anyway.

    Then after g1, cybertron is primus who gave birth to tf. Yet both primus and unicron could live and transform in beginning of time (before tf race), no vector required.

    If they were smart, they would have sold a vector sigma toy or even unrelated a matrix/primus essence like tmnt "goo" since they blabbed about vector gave birth to tf basically (first vector, then quintesson, then primus, then lol) for a few episodes then later tf can "live" without vector/a3/primus like jap hm, targetmasters, walletmasters lol etc.
     
  2. LegendAntihero

    LegendAntihero Banned

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    True, the Dinobots didn't come from Vector Sigma but they weren't very bright either.
     
  3. SouthtownKid

    SouthtownKid Headmaster

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    Scorponok and Fort Max were just transtectors. They had no life, essence, or personality of their own. Lord Zarek drove Scorponok around, and Cerebros (with Spike) worked Fort Max.

    You don't need Vector Sigma to create a lifeless vehicle.

    You can't expect to connect G1 with later, unrelated continuities.
     
  4. entITy

    entITy G 1

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    Agreed because I mentioned g1 usa, but in japan season 4 they had life correct with no humanoids?

    Agreed. Esp when things inside g1 don't make sense either like vector sigma giving life yet dinobots made by wheeljack, grimlock making computron, autobots making metroplex on earth (oh he flew to cybertron and fit in vector room and got life lol).
     
  5. The621

    The621 Fuck you, that's why!

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    You do know that Primus and Unicron were created BEFORE Vector Sigma was, right?
     
  6. entITy

    entITy G 1

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    Yes, but some suggest vector sigma is the essence of Primus (core computer), so if true, technically no vector was required because vector is apart of primus but unicron (non primacron story) is another story. However some stick to vector said itself "before cybertron (later cyber is primus) i was".

    If vector sigma is required to give tf life then unicron story (a tf planet robot with life) makes no sense, hence thread. Like grimlock making computron, wheeljack making grimlock, etc. But to be fair, primus and unicron being in beginning of time story is after g1. But there are non vector sigma life given tf in g1 like grimlock, computron, jap hm, etc.
     
  7. SouthtownKid

    SouthtownKid Headmaster

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    No, not exactly. In Japanese G1, Cerebros was still Cerebros (except they called him Fortress), and Fort Max was still a giant, lifeless Transtector he became a head for.


    And Scorponok was a normal size TF named Zarek who built a giant Transtector which he became the head of, so he could fight Fort Max.
     
  8. SouthtownKid

    SouthtownKid Headmaster

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    Yeah, now. Not in original G1 cartoon continuity.

    I used to really like the Marvel UK Primus/Unicron origin for the Transformers. I thought it was vastly better than the cartoon origin. And I don't know what happened, but somewhere over the course of the last couple years, I really got sick of Primus-this and Primus-that and Unicron-everything, and the whole 'deities from a previous Universal cycle' thing.

    I now prefer the original cartoon origin.
     
  9. daitarn red

    daitarn red bionic hero

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    spike made fort max out of hive 's old city in rebirth
    zacok made sponk out of hive 's new city
     
  10. entITy

    entITy G 1

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    Ok, so cerebros tf (fort max head) was just a robot tf in japan, but in usa he was housing of spike? So HM japan cerebros got life from vector sigma ? I only know of usa season 4 (rebirth) story.

    Ok thanks, I'm not too knowledgeable on japan HM. Because in rebirth zarak was a green fool who was in a robot housing and became head of scoponok but in japan hm, the robot (no green guy inside) was called zarak and became scoroponok head. If HM, Masterforce and Victory are as official g1 as season 1-3 in usa, I will buy them on dvd.

    Yeah I addressed 621 too (post 6), I don't know why he asked that considering I typed the after g1 story was of unicron and primus existing before universe and other tfs so no vector required. But some consider vector is primus main computer/essence. Unless you believe just g1 story of "before cybertron (which now would be cyber/primus) was, I was". Either way Primus story after g1 vector stroy and Unicron would totally make no sense as a tf, who is living, existing before vector and universe of tfs itself.

    But most in this thread are ignoring the fact dinobots, computron, etc were made with no vector sigma in g1 after g1 had a few episodes demanding only vector sigma gives life.

    Wait, then a3 (alpha trion) could merge with vector to give life too (g1).

    Wait, then quintessons (g1) give tf life and could even ressurrect tf like Prime, bumblebee etc.

    Wait, wait then primacron (g1) gives life to unicron (so primcron assistant was the matrix who escapes or a guy housing a matrix, because the light tells grimlock old story of it and the light then looks like the matrix yet the matrix is in rodimus chest lol)?

    Wait wait unicron (g1) could give life again to starscream in season 3 and insecticons (sweeps) in tftm.

    Hold on, then scorponok (g1 hm) gives life to soundblaster, no vector required.

    Wait, wait now it is primus (after g1 maybe vector is primus computer/essence ???) created all tf, except unicron (living tf) who appeared same instant he did lol.

    Hold on, now it is all spark...wow, great story writing here. Very consistent.
     
  11. SouthtownKid

    SouthtownKid Headmaster

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    You are starting to confuse the shit out of me.

    In US G1 continuity, Cerebros was a normal Transformer, same as in Japanese continuity (so yeah, life from Vector Sigma, I guess). The only differences are that the Japanese version called himself Fortress (which makes no freaking sense, but don't tell Takara), and the US version had a personality. Otherwise, they are the same.

    Then, in US G1 continuity, Cerebros removed his head and became a Headmaster, with Spike becoming his head, similar to how Daniel became Arcee's head.

    But in Japanese continuity, Cerebros (aka Fortress) never removed his head, didn't have a Headmaster, and I guess left that aspect of the toy completely unexplained to Japanese kids.

    In both Japanese and US continuity, Cerebros/Fortress became the head of Fortress Maximus, who in both continuities had no life of its own.
     
  12. Chris McFeely

    Chris McFeely Well-Known Member

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    See, this is one the things I've always liked about the G1 cartoon - at a basic level, it's about TECHNOLOGY. Robots are built and programmed. They aren't "brought to life," they're "given cybernetic personalities". But only massively advanced intelligences are able to program robots properly. Wheeljack and Ratchet create the Dinobots, the Constructions build Trypticon, and what happens? They come out as dumb cavemen. Vector Sigma programs the Stunticons and Aerialbots, and super-intelligent Grimlock makes the Technobots? They have fully-functional brains. Unicron is a product of science gone wrong. The creation of the Transformers by the Quintessons is science gone wrong. None of it is the MAGIC origin of gods and sparks.

    On the subject of Prime being "reprogrammed" upon his return from death, no - his consciousness returns from within the Matrix to occupy his body once it has been repaired, as noted when Alpha Trion asks him "Why have you returned?" when he comes back into the Matrix in ROOP. And since, confining the logic of the explanation entirely to the G1 cartoon, the Matrix only contains the consciousnesses of past leaders, one could not simply rebuild Wheeljack, because his consciousness is lost and you wouldn't be getting the same robot back.

    (Heck, one does not have to confine one's explanation to G1 logic for that - it's been established that once in the Allspark, a spark loses individuality unless it has been a Matrix bearer or had other close contact with a sacred implement, so Wheeljack or any other joe shmoe's spark couldn't just be plucked out because it effectively doesn't exist any more.)
     
  13. entITy

    entITy G 1

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    Sorry I don't know alot about cerebros or hm except cerebros is fort max head and had the personality of snagalpus in rebirth.

    *

    Ok I never saw Cerebros until rebirth episodes.

    *

    Ok I never knew that either.

    *

    That is exactly what I typed, but what confused me was I thought cerebros had a headmaster robot in japan hm too, ok thank you for clearing up :

    Ok. Yeah I don't know his past either. Ok thanks I thought cerebros had a hm in japan. Btw, I typed :

    When I edited post I must have erased a sentence, sorry for confusion. Ok in japan Headmasters series he didn't have a headmaster, that is what was throwing me off because in g1 he did and I never saw cerebros before rebirth.

    So what is crazy is if I lived in japan, a complete fort max toy would be body and cerebros but not spike (??? in theory since cerebros had no hm in japan HM) but in usa if I want a complete fort max toy I need to spend $150 on ebay for spike =) which is cerebros head which is fort max head.

    *

    Ok. I know cerebrus in usa/jap was fort max head, just I didn't know if spike was in jap hm cerebros head or not thank you for answering.
     
  14. entITy

    entITy G 1

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    That was 2nd time he came back, I was talking of first time when he lived, shot galvatron, etc before getting Matrix. The quintessons brought him back (not vector, not matrix, etc). He gave Rodimus Matrix back, then lived to seemingly destroy himself and surroundings (until 2nd prime return episode aired).

    Actually Prime was brought back in working order by quintessons twice.

    Like the junkions rebuilding Magnus?

    Besides wheeljack made grimlock, grimlock made computron. No vector required.

    Yeah thread states g1.
     
  15. Chris McFeely

    Chris McFeely Well-Known Member

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    But that wasn't actually Prime - that was a "robotic zombie" programmed by the Quintessons with only "some lingering remnants of his personality". It was only once the Matrix was placed within him that Prime's true consciousness within it was able to overpower the Quintesson programming and do the good stuff he did in the episode.

    All one simply has to assume is that he has not actually died (that his spark has not actually extinguished, if you want to use later parlance - one instance where the concept of the spark really helps to explain this particular goof), but that he has suffered massive physical trauma that would be irreparable and would result in death in normal circumstances if not for the advanced repair skills of the Junkions.

    Are you forgetting that Grimlock was infused with ungodly super-intelligence at the time he created the Technobots? Wheeljack is a smart cookie, but doesn't have the ability to program a full personality, thus caveman Grimlock. Ungodly super-smart Grimlock DOES have that ability, thus fully-functional Technobots. No Vector Sigma required.
     
  16. entITy

    entITy G 1

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    Doesn't matter that grimlock was super smart, it was stated vector sigma could only give essence.

    And what about springer being brought back by junkions.

    The fact is many tf were created and given essence without vector sigma in g1.

    How did metroplex get essence on Earth, what super smartness made him? And constructicons making Trypicon have vector powers? And Omega magically having personality compared to other guardians and Unicron giving personalities to dead tfs, scorponok creating soundblaster, fort max creating new blaster, quintessons making sharticons, predacons on other planets with no vector sigma required, etc?

    So again you'll say all-spark (all spark was a crap concept given because new kids would think tf2007 would be stealing "The Matrix" tag when that is not case or just wanted vector sigma in a different form) when this thread is of g1?

    The below confirms what I just stated :

    "The concept of the AllSpark was introduced in the first live-action movie, derived from hybridizing the concepts of previous life-giving talismans of Transformer lore, the Matrix of Leadership and Vector Sigma. The term "Matrix" was off limits because of the movie of the same name, so instead, the object was known as "the Energon Cube" for most of the film's production, even appearing under that name in the movie's novelisation. Producer Don Murphy was never entirely happy with the name, however, and so it was rechristened "the AllSpark" for the finished film."
     
  17. KA

    KA Well-Known Member

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    I read the OP n thought, with g1 cartoon inconsistency thisll be a mess of an explanation
    But then chris mcfeely came in n was like YO I GOT DIS. good job dude.
     
  18. Chris McFeely

    Chris McFeely Well-Known Member

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    And yet it happened. So I guess it did matter. Look at that.

    Internal to the G1 cartoon alone, we never see Metroplex's creation. If you take Scramble City, we still only see part of it. Who says his personality component couldn't have been given life through Vector Sigma then brought to Earth and installed into his giant body? If you're including Scramble City, note that it is preceded by the G1 manga, which details how Ultra Magnus arrives on Earth with several new technological upgrades for the Autobots, and it is he who spearheads Metroplex's construction. He could have brought a pre-programmed personality component with him.

    Trypticon is a dumb caveman robot, like the Dinobots, so no, the Constructicons don't need programming abilities on the level of Vector Sigma, just on the level of Wheeljack.

    That was never explained, but Omega lived on Cybertron in the Golden Age, so he could absolutely have been programmed by Vector Sigma back then.

    You can't bring Unicron into this. He's got cosmic powers.

    Their resurrections are only enabled through use of the highly advanced science of planet Master, not a technique the normal Cybertronians could have used.

    Oh, you mean those primitive caveman robots? Never mind that the Quintessons should have the programming abilities to manage quite a complex robot - and indeed, displayed them when they programmed their zombie Prime with elements of the real Prime's personality.

    We never see the Predacons' creation. Japanese sources credit the Quintessons working with the Decepticons for their creation, and again, the Quintessons have the programming ability for that.

    Oh, and incidentally, when I said "Allspark"? I was not referring to the movie's cube, but to the afterlife realm from which Transformer life comes.
     
  19. entITy

    entITy G 1

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    Ok great answers, thank you. ^

    What about :

    "And what about springer being brought back by junkions.

    The fact is many tf were created and given essence without vector sigma in g1 but my point was just vector sigma was pointed out as the only essence giving power in g1, even stated as such in many episodes."

    Also were combaticons taken to vector sigma, or did starscream just stick energon cubes in them on Earth to give them essence?
     
  20. Chris McFeely

    Chris McFeely Well-Known Member

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    Springer being brought back is one like Ultra Magnus where it doesn't make a lot of sense, but you just have to assume his lifeforce hasn't actually expired yet and putting him back together in time allows him to survive (again, if one retroactively applies the spark as an explanation, it works better).

    Vector Sigma being the "only" source of cybernetic personalities was literally stated in ONE episode, which was its debut episode, when Megatron said so (Prime would later say in the same episode that there was simply no way to do so "on Earth"). And at the time, per the characters' knowledge, it was. They didn't know about the Quintessons, so they didn't know there were aliens out there with the talent to program a Transformer. And no Transformers had displayed the ability to program a FULL cybernetic personality themselves - Wheeljack and Ratchet had only managed to cobble a few cavemen together (and of course, the original claim that the Decepticons had built the Constructicons had been retconned away by this point, helping this particular explanation along a good bit). At the time, with the extent of the information he had, Megatron believed Vector Sigma to be the only source of personalities, and said as much.

    (Now obviously, this and a lot of what else I've said here is all me working backwards to create an explanation from the facts in the cartoon, and of course it's not 100% perfect, but it certainly works in a straightforward way.)

    Regarding the Combaticons, they were pre-existing Decepticons whose personality components (which just LOOKED like little energon cubes, they weren't actually) had been removed from their original bodies during the war on Cybertron and placed into new bodies by Starscream. Like everyone else on Cybertron, it stands to reason they were originally programmed by Vector Sigma millions of years ago.
     

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