Discussion in 'Transformers Robots In Disguise / Prime Discussion' started by Challenger, Mar 10, 2012.
I learnt something new today
When did this thread become a techno-biology class?
What bothers me about the Scraplets episode and freezing is that they did just fine in space, which is surely colder than the frigid place Optimus and Arcee were.
Did they say they'd die? I can't wait to get my box set so I can rewatch season one, but I don't recall them saying they'd die.
Have you ever noticed that if the wind blows on you, you feel a bit colder?
Without air for your body heat to transfer to via convection, space cannot drain your heat fast enough to freeze you like a popsicle. You can lose heat through radiation, but it's way too slow compared to convection.
I know it's not G1. Did you even read my entire post or what I was replying to?
Transformed said "anyone who’s watched the show should know that the beings from Cybertron are aliens and not robots per se, at least not in the same sense we humans define them." which sounds like he was claiming that Transformers have NEVER been robots no matter what series you're watching.
I was making a point that that's only been true in certain series not all of them which you would know if you read the entire post and not just the first 3 paragraphs where I happen to be talking about G1.
I also mentioned Beast Machines, Animated, Movies, and Prime in that post in separate paragraphs. Read the entire post BEFORE you respond with "This is not G1" to someone that already freaking knows that.
I don't see how your invalid point renders anything I said to be invalid. Optics are a similar counterpart to eyes because they serve the same function. However eyes are organic tissue while optics are mechanical devices.
To put that in a real life perspective a camera also works on the same principle as an eye. It takes light and creates an image. Your eyes are basically a lenses. Though we've been able to record images for years now that technology isn't quite advanced enough to replace the human eye mostly because it's not small enough to fit in the eye socket and we don't understand enough about how the nerves work to hook up a mechanical eye to the human brain. That kind of thing has been done only in science fiction. Again why I question why a voice box can't be replaced when that is possible in real life.
Anyway, a "Cog" is a mechanical part. The functions of mechanical devices are interchangeable with organic parts but that doesn't mean the words are otherwise it would perfectly acceptable to say that your eyes are cameras, your ears are microphones, and your mouth is a speaker. Just because they server the similar function doesn't mean they are the same thing. Good luck trying to film a movie using your own eyes and ears to record it. I'm sure it will look great... to you... the hard part is getting that sound and picture out of your brain so other people can see it.
Transformers are neither organic things or lifeless robots. G1 Transformers may have been manufactured but they were introduced as LIVING MACHINES.
Now as for the characteristics of organic life, no they do not display any of the characteristics.
Oddly enough you say they don't reproduce but in fact they do. Not in the organic sense... at least that's not how robots reproduce. A robot manufacturing another robot could be considered a form of reproduction. However this would be the mechanical definition not the organic one.
The same is true of all their similarities with organics. It's a mechanical counterpart not genuine organic nature.
Reactivity to stimulus, I actually haven't seen much of this. They've gone threw stuff that should trigger a reaction but does nothing. Bumblebee getting his T-Cog removed for example should show signs of pain but he doesn't even realize it's gone till he tries to transform.
Adaptability, they're highly advanced robots, of course they're going to be able to adapt.
Organization, this is a sign of intelligence not of being organic.
Growth, what growth? You mean mass shifting? Organic things don't normally change mass at will. I suppose it could be possible but nothing known can do this and certainly not something made of metal.
Use of energy, machines use energy. Everything on Earth runs on some form of energy weather it's organic or mechanical.
Evolution, actually for Transformers it's upgrades. They don't evolve, they get upgraded. Caterpillars grow wings and turn into butterflies. Transformers can't just grow wings, they have to build and install them.
Going back over the 7 again.
Reactivity to stimulus, they do some times show signs of this but it's almost like Data's emotion chip on Star Trek where it can be turned on or off at will.
Adaptability, that's an obvious reference to their ability to transform. However if they were organic they would simply morph into any shape they wanted like Odo from Deep Space Nine. The scan and copy technique is a characteristic of a machine.
Organization, again, this has nothing to do with being organic, it's just a sign of intelligence.
Growth, in the movie the Hatchlings would suggest that Transformers in the movie continuity do grow. Robots are built not hatched. Being hatchlings would suggest that they were growing inside of egg sacks which is indeed what they appeared to be doing.
Use of energy, again all things organic and mechanaical need energy to function. Nothing works without a power source.
Reproduction, again the hatchlings in the movie universe are the only indication in any continuity that Transformers reproduce in the organic sense otherwise they are built which is a form of reproduction for robots.
Evolution, Megatron becoming Galvatron is an upgrade not an evolution. They're similar but upgrades are for robots, evolution is for organics.
Except for the movie universe there's nothing which really indicates that Tranformers have organic traits.
If the thing that made them Transform was indeed an organ it wouldn't be a cog. Cogs and organs are two entirely different things.
The reason machines are so similar to organics BTW is because the study of how the organic parts function lead to the invention of their mechanical counterparts. Cameras would not be possible if we didn't have some understanding of how the eye works. Microphones would not be possible without some understanding of how the ear works. Speakers would not be possible without some understand about how vocal cords work. We had to understand how organics can do these things before we could build mechanical devices to mimic them. To think of it another way, if we knew everything about how humans work we would eventually be able to build an exact replica of one and there would be no way to tell the machine apart from the organic. Would that make the machine any less a machine if it was built to exactly replicate everything organics can do? Of course not. It'd be a lot harder to explain the difference between organics and machines if machines were ever that advanced though. The first two would have to be built but after that if they were indeed perfect replicas of life they'd be able to have little robot babies.
I guess a better way to put it is if Transformers are organic then everything about them must be natural and not synthetic. Cogs don't occur in nature, they're manufactured so there's nothing organic or natural about having cogs as organs.
Negative. It's a common misconception that space is colder than being in the Arctic.
Actually no it's more on the lines of WFC and Exodus.
When were they in space?
The first time they were in a container, which could have something that keeps them asleep until they crash landed and froze. Then, they froze at the end.
On Cybertron, all the Cybertronians are able to move around freely, which means the temperature has to be somewhat moderate. We assume it has an atmosphere, though I'm not sure if that was confirmed outside Transformers Animated. Jack only wore a space suit because they didn't know if the air was breathable.
I think I'm gonna wait to see if the show goes more into explanation before I start reading essay-long comments on Cybertronian biology.
Different bot with different method to store the t-cog
my first post. maybe last, i dunno. but i thought i'd say this. everyone seems to be forgetting how they are made, if you noticed ratchet juicing himself. they have a biological pattern to there design. and if you remember bulkhead said the scraplets eat metal, "especially living metal" i think they have a processing unit that stores and distributes the energon.
they can replace most likely anything. arms, legs. but the brain and spark chamber are death blows for them. they probly all have a similar bio pattern as well. and as to the bleed no bleed thing, most likely it depends on the depth of damage and how hard they are hit.
but if you wana nit pick, you could find anything to do it about, or you could suspend yourself for a bit and realize they got only x amount of time to talk to you about there story. breakdown removes the head off an oil well pump, the center pin bolt just slides out? bulk throws arachnid, she flips, full thrust and somehow maintains a distinct and stable trajectory with breakdown. energon glows. but megatron stomps on a crystal and it stops glowing? if all these lapses in physics and carry over traits has eluded you but this sticks, i dunno what to say.
so i conclude that energon probably saturates them at a low level all over, the more you thrash about the more you need. most likely the energy is absorbed in micro molecular functions of there base living metal, powering weapons or motors and dissipated as heat. as you can see the scraplets see some sort of radiance coming off them.
Alright, so I'm going to get my opinion in here. This is completely based one what I think is going on so please do not attack me. We are all entitled to our opinions. Also I might explain myself thoroughly or I might be hard to understand and for that I apologize.
First order of business: Why didn't Bumblebee leak Energon everywhere when he was cut open by Mech, but Starscream did when he stabbed himself in the side? And why didn't he notice his T-cog was missing? Here is what I think. Mech performed surgery on Bumblebee. Obviously they've learned enough about Transformers that they apparently know where their organs are and what they do. They were kind enough to knock Bumblebee out while they did this "surgery" (of course that was probably more of them not wanting to fight against a giant robot, a fight they'd lose, rather than a thing of kindness). When a surgery is performed, great care is taken to cut through as little as what is necessary in order to get to the part that needs to be fixed or, in this case, removed. Assuming that Mech is not completely heartless (as I am) they'd be careful not to saw through anything that they did not need to which would minimize bleeding unlike Starscream who just stabbed himself with the purpose of getting some energon. In my opinion, Bumblebee did leak Energon during his surgery, it just wasn't as much as it could have been if Mech had torn through him and th amount his did bleed isn't shown as we don't actually see the surgery taking place at all, just the face of the guy doing it.
As to why he wasn't leaking Energon when they finished its most likely because they patched Bumblebee back up afterward. Although in the show it makes it seem like they cut him open and then made a run for it before Bulkhead could arrive, I believe that this was just for drama and time’s sake as it wouldn't have made much sense if they did. If they had, Bumblebee would have had a huge gaping hole in his side which would have been immediately noticed by Bulkhead and Ratchet and therefore Ratchet wouldn't have had the need to scan Bumblebee as he would've known what was wrong almost upon seeing him; plus I couldn't see a huge hole in his side when he came-to afterward either. I think that Mech gave themselves enough to time to remove his T-cog and then patch him back up afterwards. Which in my opinion is also why he wasn't leaking energon everywhere. After you're sewed up from surgery, you typically don't bleed enough for it to be overly noticeable which is probably doubly true for Transformers as they apparently heal much, much quicker than humans.
Another point is how Bulkhead greets Bumblebee upon seeing him. It's a "Who did this to you!?" rather than a simple "What happened?" The way Bulkhead asks the question implies that he sees that Bumblebee has been injured rather than perhaps he believed that he just got hit.
As for the question why doesn't Bumblebee know his T-cog is missing. All I have to say to that is I doubt Bumblebee came-to with the thought "Oh crap, they stole my T-cog." It wouldn't make much sense if he did. Sort of like if you were suddenly knocked unconscious and then came too you would not immediately assume that someone knocked you out just so that they could steal one of your kidneys. It simply wouldn't happen. Although I do believe that Bumblebee knew something was wrong with him as I actually do think he was in a bit of pain when he regained consciousness as seen by his reluctance to sit up and how slow he got to his feet. Though again I do not think he realized it was anything serious until he tried to transform. Despite Bumblebee's young age I believe his pain tolerance is rather high considering all of the crap he's been through. So even if I think he was in pain it isn't unbelievable that he shook it off so quickly and began running after Bulkhead. He's probably learned to just get over any pain he's experiencing at the moment and to just keep on going as seen with all of the Autobots.
Tcongulator also makes a good point. Just pointing that out as well.
Second: I keep hearing everyone complaining about how in Transformers: Prime the Transformers have biological parts. I actually have to agree with the biology in the Transformers. It makes more sense to me and tends to make the Transformers seem more alive rather than just a robot with a programmed personality. They are literally living metal. It’s rather a new and refreshing idea to incorporate into the Transformers.
And third: I also keep hearing everyone saying how it shouldn’t be called a T-cog since that is completely a mechanical part. Although I don’t disagree with this I would just like to point out that we need to remember that these are alien life forms from a completely different planet and therefore culture and language and therefore probably don’t have cogs on their planet and if they did it probably wouldn’t be called “cog” but something different. My assumption is that them calling it a T-cog was most likely the closest translation they had for the organ.
Anyways, this is y official opinion on this subject. If I wasn’t understandable I apologize but I think I at least got the subject of my point across.
That's one hell of a first post, considering no one's posted in it for six months.
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